Talk:Brodie Croyle

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Article probably still needs to be cleaned up a good bit, but it's much better than it was. It mainly had material regarding his injuries. Also it contained statements like this -- "Having expended his redshirt season sitting out previous injuries, it appeared as though Croyle's career might have been finished, but the NCAA decided to grant him an extra year of eligibility because of his injuries." -- No! Not true! This sentence makes three different assertions, each of which is untrue.

Whoops, my bad. I confused him with Jason White, for which I ought to get whacked on the head with a herring. Still, there was no need to delete everything. Sometime very, very soon I'll try to integrate the old content with the new. Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 06:12, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

How do you like it now? Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 06:20, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

It was an uniformative article that only stressed his injuries. The revisions were necessary.

"He declared for the 2006 NFL Draft with high hopes of an early selection. On April 29, 2006, the Chiefs drafted Croyle in the third round." What does that have to do with his collegiate career? No idea why the format was reverted. Can anyone elaborate on which classes he took in college or anything about his grammar school?

Good point--I made a new section for the draft bit. Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 06:54, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry. Think I may have reverted that by mistake. Thanks for fixing it again.

[edit] Shula criticism

"Shula received a lot of criticism for leaving his star QB in the game with a large lead, being accused of running up the score" -- While Shula did receive some criticism from college football pundits who always need something to talk about, most experts (including current and former coaches) agree that the criticism was misplaced. Croyle was injured on the first drive of the second half. No coach pulls their QB that early, even with a 31-0 lead. Additionally, Shula exlained that Croyle needed to more game time to work with his young freshman receivers. Also, the criticism wasn't for 'running up the score' it was having the starting QB in the game, thus making him more susceptible to injury.

This whole subject has no business being in this article. The only fact that needs to be stated is that Croyle hurt himself. This is not an appropriate location for opinions or criticisms of Mike Shula. 24.22.9.195 00:33, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

It kind of is, however. The first time that many Americans outside the South heard of Croyle was when he was injured and the national media hounded Shula for running up the score. It was Croyle's main claim to fame until the 2005 season, when he finally came into his own. It's relevant because it shows how he became known to most people. I'll put it back shortly unless you can come up with a better reason, but I'll leave it out for now, alright? Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 05:13, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I never heard of the controvery and I follow Alabama football very closely (albeit it from far away). The bottom line is it is a matter of opinion, a very minor event and doesn't belong in an encylopedia article. It's about as silly as listing everyone's opinion of his play in every game. 24.22.9.195 00:33, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Matt - It obviously is a matter of opinion, because so many people disagree with you. I also follow Alabama football closely, and I am familiar with some of the criticism Shula received from a small minority of football pundits. I am also familiar with the majority of football pundits that turned around and told those panty-waist jock sniffers to shut up because they didn't know what they were talking about. Your personal opinion of the incident is irrelevant to the article.

So, my thinking it matters is irrelevant, but your "close following of Alabama football" means that the claims of several "pansy-waist jock sniffers" are irrelevant? Do you see how your argument isn't very convincing? I don't want to be rude or scare you--just trying to explain why I'm unconvinced. I would like to see one link--just one--of a major or semi-major sports website (something on the level of CFBNews.com, SI.com, etc.) who said "Sure, leaving in your star quarterback when you're up by five scores against a team that doesn't even belong on the same field as you is a good idea!" or something of the sort. Please? Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 00:28, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and could you do me a favor from now on? Please sign your posts with ~~~~ from now on--it makes it easier to tell who exactly is talking. Thanks! Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 00:28, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

This site is not Sports Illustrated or CF News. Those are news sites that are full of analysis and opinion. This is an encylopedia and the standards are much different, notably it is a site for facts, not opinion. These comments have been posted by 2 different people. I need to create an account... 24.22.9.195 00:33, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Matt - What you're not understanding is the game of football. Rarely, rarely, rarely do coaches pull their starters at halftime if the team has a big lead. It has nothing to do with wanting to score more points or to prove a point. It has to do with keeping up the momentum into the second half and then turning it over to the second and third stringer. Every single team does it. I see from your profile that you are a WSU fan. I guarantee you that WSU has done this before. As a matter of fact, in the 2005 Nevada game, WSU was ahead by 27 points at halftime, yet starter Alex Brink returned after halftime to start the second half. It wasn't until midway through the 3rd quarter until WSU pulled Brink from the game. A second example - WSU v. Grambling in 2005. WSU continued to keep Alex Brink in the game into the 4th quarter with a 27 point lead. Third example - WSU v. Idaho 2004. Starter Josh Swogger returns in 3rd quarter with a 28 point lead. Fourth example - WSU v. Oregon in 2003. WSU has a 45-16 point lead going into 4th quarter, yet starter Matt Kegel continues to play. 68.221.193.76 02:49, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, this is not SI or CFBNews. You see, when I read something by someone who works there, I can rest assured that the person there at least knows what they're talking about--because someone is signing their paycheck. On Wikipedia talk pages? Participants don't have that credibility. So, get a credible reference, and your argument will be taken much, much more seriously. See WP:V for a bit more info, if you are so inclined. (By the way, the opinions of notable commentators is frequently considered notable. See Public perception and assessments of George W. Bush for a good example.) Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 00:49, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Sports media is not always informed. I would say, the better thing to do, is to go look at the box scores of various football games to see what the trend is among college football coaches with regard to keeping starters in past halftime in games with blowout scores. If you do this, you will see that your belief/theory holds no water. See the WSU examples above 68.221.193.76

The George Bush article you mention is for "perception and assessments". I don't see the need for it, but if you want to start a branch for assessments of Brodie Croyle, go ahead. 24.22.9.195 05:45, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Here are some more examples - AU v. Ball State in 2005. AU leads 42-3. Starting QB Brandon Cox remains in the game until the end of the 3rd quarter.

USC v. WSU in 2005. USC up 38-6 at half. Leinart and Bush return to play in the 3rd quarter.

USC v. UCLA in 2005. UCLA up 52-6 going into the 4th quarter. Leinart still in the game. He's finally taken out when USC gets the extra security of one more TD.

Florida v. UK in 2005. Florida is leading 49-14 at the half, yet QB Chris Leak started the 3rd quarter. He was later pulled in the 3rd, but Urban Meyer put him back in during the 4th.

This may not satisfy you, but it's the truth: just because it's commonplace doesn't mean it isn't running up the score. USC was notorious on the West Coast for doing so, by the by. Washington State did it a few times, too, and if Brink had gotten himself injured against Grambling, I absolutely guarantee that coach Doba would have gotten killed in the local media because of it. Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 05:41, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

These are just some examples. I could put dozens more in here. It's not just 'commonplace' meaning there are a few examples out there. It's what every team does. Even in blow out games, every single football team plays their starters after half time. Go look at the box scores for any football team. The reason why coaches do it has nothing to do with running up the score. This has been explained to you over and over by more people than just me. Your definition of 'running up the score' seems to differ from what everyone else sees as running up the score. 68.221.193.76 12:26, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Running up the score ought to be clear to everyone. As it doesn't appear to be clear here, I'll concede. Your civility and patience have been appreciated. Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 23:28, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 2003 record

'Bama went 4-9 in 2003, not 4-7 as listed; correct.

[edit] NFL career

I removed this line "He declared for the 2006 NFL Draft with high hopes of an early selection. ". Every player entering the draft hopes for an early selection so it's not needed. 05:45, 2 May 2006 (UTC)