Template talk:British Royal Family

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Camilla Parker Bowles shouldn't be on the template until after the wedding. She is not now a member of the royal familly. (Alphaboi867 05:36, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC))

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[edit] Diana and Sarah

Shouldn't Diana, Princess of Wales and Sarah, Duchess of York be on here? They are the mothers of the 2nd and 3rd (Diana), and 5th and 6th (Sarah)

Hence the note "as of April x 2005". AndyL 13:26, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I've removed Camilla - she can go back on 8 April, no sooner, jguk 20:38, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Personally, i don't think she should be on at all! She is to blame for many problems within the family, however she is a member of the royal family, much against our own wishes !!

[edit] Styles->Interesting Info

The styles can be provided in each of the relevant biographical entries, there is absolutely no cause to be prefixing on other pages through a template. Whig 18:53, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Protected.

This style dispute has spilled over from Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom and elsewhere. Enough, already. — Dan | Talk 19:10, May 24, 2005 (UTC)

This is not so much a "spill over" as it is part of the Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom page, as this template is transcluded into that article, and Jguk has respected the edits I've made to try to restore NPOV. This protection is improper, no request for protection was made, there is no debate or discussion here on the Talk page, just the unilateral action of one sysop. Whig 03:23, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Right. Sysops are empowered to protect pages to stop or prevent edit wars, and no request is necessary. Discuss here, make a decision, and I or some other admin will unprotect it. — Dan | Talk 03:35, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

The use of abbreviated prefix styles conveys no information here that cannot be ascertained from the biographical articles themselves; and do not in fact give important disambiguating information since practically everyone on this list is simply designated as HRH (except for the queen and those designated "Lady So-and-So"). The maintenance of this stylistic flourish is especially improper because of its transclusion into articles which are substantially NPOV contested to begin with, and this is a barrier to resolution. Please unprotect. Whig 04:22, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

There are various different styles in royal families, and therefore it is necessary to use them to give the reader an idea of rank, and origin. eg HRH signifies the highest royal rank, whereas HH is a lower style. Using styles in articles about royality can never be a POV, since it is common for people to refer to royals with their appropiate style, and it is established to be part of their "legal name". Astrotrain 19:00, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

Astrotrain, the relevant biographical entries provide the styles, and in the Template here there are no "HH's", just "HM" for the Queen and "HRH" for everyone else except "Lady". So there is no point to this. Whig 20:58, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
  • The styles can be provided here as well, and it seems like no-one agrees with you on the matter. This is a template for royal articles therefore it is important that the full style of the members are listed. Astrotrain 22:14, May 25, 2005 (UTC)
  • Astrotrain, with all due respect, this has been a long-running discussion covering many weeks, and we're just getting to a point of working out our differences and resolving the NPOV dispute on the Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom article. There hasn't been a lot of discussion on the template page here (just you and me, really), but I think you've missed the broader context, and I don't want to rehash everything here. The transclusion of this template into the Elizabeth article makes it more appropriate we discuss it there than here, really, and this falls into the larger subject of the Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies), the related Talk page, the survey and its related discussion, and quite a bit more. The fact that jguk is supporting my edits in the Elizabeth article is substantial progress towards resolution, and I hope you will try to work with the rest of us to settle things. Whig 02:51, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
  • I agree with Astrotrain here. We should certainly use styles where they would be used normally and where it is useful to do so. I have always said that we shouldn't go out of our way to overuse them, but that isn't the case here, jguk 05:38, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Indentation

I was wondering if this list should be indented to show the generations, as can be seen in other royal family lists.

The benefit of this is to break up the list, mainly to make it easier to read.

For example:

British Royal Family
Image:UK Royal Coat of Arms.png

I would appreciate any thoughts. Rascalb 02:27, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it should be indented, and it was indented, but someone keeps changing it!!Mac Domhnaill

  • The list is in order of precedence, not by generation. It can only work as you suggest, if the monarch is the first generation. Consider if say Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester were still alive, she would be a generation above the Queen, but this could not be shown logically by your indents. The same will also be true if the Queen is succeded by Charles who will be a generation below the Kents and Gloucesters. Astrotrain 23:12, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
    • That version also suggests William and Harry are the children of Camilla (as pointed out by a user previously) Astrotrain 20:04, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
      • Couldn't Camilla be put underneath William and Harry? 207.90.94.104 18:08, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
I think that if you did that, it would look like Camilla is the daughter of the Queen and married to Prince Andrew. Rascalb 22:05, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Royal Arms in templates

As detailed by OPSI (previously HMSO) in all copyright notices issued, while the Royal Arms are covered by Crown Copyright, they are not to be considered free use, and can only be used with Fair Use/Dealing rationales. As such, the Royal Arms should never be placed in templates or onto user pages as discussed at Wikipedia:Fair use#Policy. Inclusions of this template make up about a fair number of the remaining file links on Image:UK Royal Coat of Arms.png, and while it should probably be removed, I'm loathe to turn the template into a plain bordered box. So does anyone have any ideas as to what image to replace the Arms with, or any serious rationale as to why it should be included other than "it's pretty" or the equivalent? GeeJo (t)⁄(c) • 07:02, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

  • The arms have not been sourced from the OPSI- they are the copyright of whoever drew them. Astrotrain 18:24, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
No, they're not. See Crown Copyright. The Royal Arms are covered by the licence, and will be until at least 2040. The exact wording of the licence is:
"The material featured on this site is subject to Crown copyright protection unless otherwise indicated. The Crown copyright protected material (other than the Royal Arms and departmental or agency logos) may be reproduced free of charge in any format or medium provided it is reproduced accurately and not used in a misleading context. Where any of the Crown copyright items on this site are being republished or copied to others, the source of the material must be identified and the copyright status acknowledged." GeeJo (t)⁄(c) • 19:43, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I assume that applies to the image actually on the page- but according to the coat of arms tag- "Representations of coats of arms are subject to copyright as original works of art and do not fall under Bridgeman Art Library Ltd. v. Corel Corporation's purview as they are not representations of two-dimensional works of art."- so if they are redrawn by someone, they can be used freely. Astrotrain 19:48, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
That's true, and if a Wikipedia user took it upon themselves to create their own representation of it, it would be freely usable in any and all templates. Unfortunately, noone yet has — this image was uploaded by User:Boffin without any statement on the source, so we have to assume it's from a regular government department, and the only thing that's been done to it since then has been a conversion to a PNG with transparancy instead of whitespace. That alone isn't enough to constitute an original piece. GeeJo (t)⁄(c) • 21:18, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
This particular image is from Graham Bartram's website and he has allowed use of his images on Wikipedia. Craigy (talk) 21:23, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I had suspected it was from Graham's work. It is clearly not from a government website (as they don't use the full royal arms), and the royal.gov.uk website never has any particular high quality arms. Astrotrain 21:28, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Alright, so that qualifies the image for {{Withpermission}} (or more specifically {{Flags.net}}.) But unless Graham's released it under a free license, rather than just permission specific to Wikipedia, the fact remains that this is a non-free image, and shouldn't be used in templates. GeeJo (t)⁄(c) • 21:38, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough. But that's a different kettle of fish and I suggest you take that up elsewhere seeing as we're detracting from your main argument and we've established that this image clearly isn't from OPSI - WP:PUI might be a good place to start. Craigy (talk) 21:57, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

(enough indenting) No, my main argument wasn't that the Royal Arms was from OPSI (I only highlighted that to show that the Arms weren't free use under crown copyright), but rather that the use of the image is only covered by fair use guidelines, and as per Wikipedia's Fair Use policy, fair use images shouldnt be on templates such as this one. Noone has actually addressed that point yet, and we've gotten sidetracked into a discussion of copyright ownership. I'm not calling for the image to be removed from the site entirely, and never have been. The image should be retained for use on specific articles, such as Royal Arms of the United Kingdom. GeeJo (t)⁄(c) • 00:35, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

OK. Maybe we could use this image with this template for the templates? It's not as good, but I guess it would get round the copyright problems. Craigy (talk) 20:28, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Diana and Sarah - Take two

I do not believe that Diana and Sarah should be included on the template. Even if the royal family says that Diana was still part of the family after her divorce, she is now deceased. Should we keep The Queen Mother on the template? As for Sarah, she is still alive, but until there is word form the RF about her status, she should stay off template. Prsgoddess187 18:41, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This template seems to cover the same ground as Template:House of Windsor

At a quick glance that template seems to be more comprehensive and flexible, in some ways. Maybe the two could be merged in some way ? --Richardb43 14:43, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

  • No- the Royal Family template includes consorts such as the Duke of Edinburgh or the Duchess of Kent, who cannot be in the HOW template. The RF template goes on the article of living royals, and the house template for deceased royals Astrotrain 14:46, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
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