Talk:Brigitte Gabriel
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[edit] Improving the Early Life in Lebanon Section
This section is in dire need of improvement. I see that some attempts have been made but they were reverted. I hope that we can all work together to improve it I am going to make a number of changes in the next couple of days. I would really appreciate being contacted on my talk page if you plan to revert them so we can discuss the changes.Daniel J. Leivick 01:02, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
The reason I have trimmed down the biography section is not that I doubt she has described her life in this way, it is that a personal (and controversial) autobiography should not be depicted as fact on wikipedia. As it stands it reads like she wrote it rather then an objective observer, because we cannot source most of her story beyond her own claims they should not be included.Daniel J. Leivick 03:52, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
I made a number of edits to the biography section roughly returning it to the shortened state. Each edit is explained as best I could. I tried to do two primary things, first remove the redundant historical content as it is not necessary with a link to the civil war especially as many of the events discussed have little to do with her. Secondly I tried to remove as much of the propaganda
[edit] What exactly violates Neutrality about her biography, career history, or quotes?
Talk page accusations (especially baseless ones) does NOT make an article "disputed neutrality"
Some individuals are getting away with some smearing. The majority of this article concerns her personal biography, career history of employment/work activities, and notable quotes. Who has the authority/personal contacts to dispute that these facts are wrong?
I suggest the "Neutrality in dispute" label be removed from the main page immedidately. No one has shown any evidence the facts of her career or personal biography are incorrect or in dispute.
rjp2006
[edit] Brigitte Gabriel has fabricated much of what she says
She has made claims that it is also part of the Muslim religion to torture people as a sign of manhood. She has also very close links to PR firms working for Israel and the U.S. government.
http://canadiancoalition.com/forum/messages/17543.shtml
I was at the lecture, and Brigitte Gabriel's version of events is utter fabrication, as evident by my video of the event, the official representatives of the Univ. of Memphis, and dozens of non-muslim eye witnesses. Here is what really happened: http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=199
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=199
Can you prove that she has fabricated much of what she says? I don't think you can. 68.211.205.106 06:54, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Show us the video evidence that is claimed in the link. Mre5765 15:00, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Anti-Islam category
Can we discuss this? (→Netscott) 06:47, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
- From what I can see, she is against Islamism and not Islam per se. ←Humus sapiens ну? 06:51, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
She is bigoted and calls muslims "Osama bin laden look alikes"
This woman is biggoted in her views. She makes sweeping generalizations about Muslims and Islam. That is why she should be placed under the anti-Islam sentiment category. In her recent interview on CNN, the reporter told her that Hezbollah won the elections in Lebanon fair and square, and she countered that "these terrorists have multiple wives and many children, they voted themselves in..." obviously she was not referring to Hezbollah per se, for Hezbollah is a minor faction of a few thousand, but to Shiite Muslims. That is anti-Islam sentiment. That is the same type of rhetoric of minorites reproducing "like rats" used by bigots worldwide. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Freiheit94 (talk • contribs) .
- Your charaterization of her here is based upon your own conjecture otherwise known as original research. If anyone is going to be labeled anti-anything then verifiable reliable sources need to be cited when doing so. As well for a categorization to be valid a body of points of view (a consensus) that add up to neutrally to a person being labeled as such (in the category) should exist. (→Netscott) 07:02, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
-
- Freiheit94: 1st, please sign your posts in talk pages, and 2nd, I can only see that she is against radical Islam or Islamism. The rest is in your head. ←Humus sapiens ну? 07:09, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Her comments prove her to harbor anti-Islam sentiment
According to her interview and the article which responded to "Muslims Muzzling Memphis" by Gabriel, Brigitte does harbor anti-Islam sentiment. David Duke's comments, articles, lectures form a large enough body of evidence to place him under the Racism and anti-semtic people categories.Freiheit94 07:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC) Freiheit94
- I haven't read in the article where she's labeled as expressing anti-Islam sentiment and even if such content was found there, one article would not constitute a "body" of views. Do you have other citations to support your view that she should be included in this category? (→Netscott) 07:17, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
---
I modified the part about her time in Lebanon, simply because it was written like some kind of fundamentalist propaganda piece and included incredibly biased statements. Wikipedia should not state, as fact, that all "Muslims" (the entry made no distinctions) want to behead all Christians - much less that that was the cause of the Lebanese civil war. However, it should be noted that I haven't checked any of these statements for factual accuracy - just made them sound a little less like a Judeo-Christian diatribe against all things Islamic. --- G. H.
- Well OK , but how about signing in with a username instead of an anonmymous log in? As far as accuracy you can watch her presentation to the Heritage Foundation where she discusses her early life in Lebanon. The events mentioned are also corroborated by ample historical records of the region--CltFn 12:02, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
- CltFn- Please don't use inflated language like "corroborated by ample historical records." It's becoming a common trend in your edits.
- To address your answer: In writing a biographical summary, we should use neutral sources, not the words of the biographee herself. Also, as far as I know, thier are no "historical records" on Gabriel's life nor her family's. Perhaps thier are records of the events surrounding her life, but in terms of her interpretation of those events, the historical record doesn't help her case.--Kitrus 08:26, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] WHAT THE HELL IS THIS?
This has to be the most fabricated, biased article on wikipedia. Who wrote it? Brigitte's mother? Poor grammer, poor diction, and poor logic. I am deleting much of it. Aljazzera44 23:53, 5 November 2006 (UTC)Aljazzera44
[edit] HAHA
What a dumb article. Biased and filled with lies.
First of all there was never anything called "Arabic Lebanese Army", and if you search google you'll only find four entries, the first being from wikipedia. It's unfortunate that an aspiring encyclopedia would have such an error for this long. The closest thing there ever was to an "Arabic Lebanese Army" was the "Lebanese National Movement", and it was in general a [u]leftist[/u] organization. It did not characterize itself as a "muslim" organization, and in fact its leader was a Durzi.
You can read about it hear : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_National_Movement
In the article the "author" tried to make it sound as if muslims wanted to kill christians for no other reason other than their faith, which is ridiculous and contrary to reality. If anyone wanted to kill anyone else because of their faith it would be the chrisitan maronite groups, specifically the fascist phalanghe party which ignited the Lebanese civil war when it slaughtered people in a Palestinian bus. It was also lebanese christans who directly committed the Sabra and Chatilla massacre, which was commissioned by the oh so benevolent Israel, who itself had its fair share of killings, last but not least when it concerns Lebanon the 1200 mostly civlians dead in the recent launched by Israel in summer of 2006.
In other words, muslims are not murderous blood sucking people who just want to behead others in the name of allah, as the article alleges, and maronite groups are not just victims who Israel saved from certain doom. -- bobo Nov 10, 2006
- Who is Durzi? Many Muslims want to kill Christians; many who do not want to, remain silent. The latter is one of Brigitte's biggest complaints. Brian Pearson 01:02, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] YouTube links
This article is one of thousands on Wikipedia that have a link to YouTube in it. Based on the External links policy, most of these should probably be removed. I'm putting this message on the talk page, to request the regular editors take a look at the link and make sure it doesn't violate policy. In short: 1. 99% of the time YouTube should not be used as a source. 2. We must not link to material violating someone's copyright. If you are not sure whether the link on this article should be removed or if you would like to help spread this message, contact us on User talk:J.smith/YouTube Linklist. Thanks, ---J.S (t|c) 00:56, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
- In some cases videos are authorized by their source for release on Youtube, thus are quite legitimate sources. This article explains a trend with commercial outlets in regards to Youtube --CltFn 13:23, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Neutrality strongly required
What is this? An auto biography? Where are the sources and evidence for all this fairy tales actually happened? How do you know she didn't invent her entire biography? Where is the neutrality of this site? This is supposed to be an encyclopedia article, not a speech by Brigitte.
- They are qualified as claims made by Brigitte, not as fact. Brian Pearson 01:14, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] LOL
Yeah maybe I'm crazy or something but it sounds like an autobiography done in the third person. ЯKolothMailbox|R
04:58, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Biased Article
Her place in Lebanon is not known. The name of the place is very important to know the authenticity of the story.
It is understood from the story that she was in the South. That area was not hit hard during the 1975-1976 war. If she lived in a shelter for 7 years, this means that her house was bombarded in 1971 (ABSOLUTELY FAKE STORY).
The link to her book has an external link (is kinda spam?). It is promoting her book.
- From http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=24567 she refers to her birthplace as Paris of the Middle East (from this we could construe Beirut) but she only refers to where she lived later as South Lebanon (maybe because Israel bulldozed it down since then so yes it now is "Southern" Lebanon). She says she stayed in some shelter between 1975 and 1982 (don't know where you got the 1971 date from !). Links to author books are not spam unless it simply is a page promoting the book and which link are you talking about anyway ? Also please sign your posts with 4 tildes. (Before you lot think I'm some american zionist christian apologist I'm actually an anti-Israel/Islamophobic/Anti-Christian/Darwinist/Atheist/pro-Europe/SecularHumanist/Anti-Microsoft (I think thats enough *ists). Ttiotsw 01:29, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Stop blanking stuff
The early life in Lebanon section seems to have been blanked by some editors who seem to think that if the life of a subject of an article is non complimentary their favorite ideological group that it should be blanked. To those folks, I say stop the blanking.--CltFn 04:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I made a number of edits to the biography section roughly returning it to the shortened state. Each edit is explained as best I could. I tried to do two primary things, first remove the redundant historical content as it is not necessary with a link to the civil war especially as many of the events discussed have little to do with her beyond happening in her country. Secondly I tried to remove as much of the depictions of violence, without sourcing beyond her own claims they are not appropriate for this page as they border on propaganda. I also removed some POV sentences that felt out of place on wikipedia. This is not "blanking" this is deliberate editing for quality and NPOV, Islam is far from my favorite ideological group and I have no interest in hiding things that are non complimentary I merely want the article to be the best it can be. Thanks for helping with the article.Daniel J. Leivick 01:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
- User:Daniel J. Leivick -You should not have blanked out her own statements on the matter , which rightfully belong in the article. The section made it clear that this is what she states and it is her POV which is perfectly fine to be part of the article as the topic of the article is her. What you are doing is reducing the article to bland statements which do not explain anything as to who she is and what she is all about. By putting a whole bunch of "she claims this" , "she claims that" you are advancing a POV that suggests that what she is saying is suspect or dubious. What you have done is turned a good hard hitting and interesting article into generic page of bland statements. --CltFn 04:38, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
First I am very glad that we can discuss this without edit warring. Much of what I deleted was Gabriel's historical account of the Lebanese Civil war which does not have place on her page as it was merely an event that happened in her country during her life time. Perhaps if her account differs significantly from what is described on the Civil War page a section could be devoted to her opinions on the war. Secondly while user CltFn describes the current state of the article as bland, I would describe it prior state as far to heated, bordering on propaganda. Descriptions of torture, the murder of babies and the like should not be placed in an article if they are largely second and third hand accounts. Thirdly the prior state of the article was too long to come solely from words of the subject of the article, we don't get to write our own bios on wikipedia even in its current state it could use some alternate sources. The "she claims" modifiers are vital as it makes it clear where fact appropriate for wikipedia to cite end and claims made by a controversial source begin. Lets keep discussing how this article can be improved. Daniel J. Leivick 20:26, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
- The long and explicit version which I endorse was written to reflect Brigitte Gabrielle's account of her life during those early years in Lebanon, precisely as she stated it in the Heritage Foundation video linked at the bottom of the page. My view is that biographic articles need to provide the context of the unfolding events that shaped the circumstances of the subject in question and which provide insight as to the course of conduct that they have embarked on as a result. Brigitte Gabriel's life has to be presented to a readership which in many cases may have had little comprehension of the history or on the ground realities of the past 40 years of Lebanon. Much of the Gabrielle's life during that period was shaped by the ethno-religious conflicts of Lebanon during those years and the harshness of those events needs to be included in her life story. Those events help us to understand why Brigitte Gabrielle takes the positions that she takes in regards to the middle eastern conflicts. When we omit to mention these things, through an aversion of harsh facts, and what I would call an unfortunate adherence to political correctness then our articles wind up failing to inform the reader on important information on the topic of concern. The question is are we going to write articles that present the whole story or are we only going to present vetted articles which only present selected bits that won't offend anyone but won't tell us anything either? Sadly the prevailing trend of mainstream media leans to the latter which is why the news networks are mostly useless in relaying news and why after watching the evening news you have learned exactly nothing about events that will have a major impact on our lives. Now if Wikipedia could rise to the challenge and provide articles that give the whole story then we would have something to be proud of--CltFn 07:18, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
I would say that information regarding political events in Lebanon that directly effected Gabriel are open for inclusion, ie her house being bombed and being saved by Operation Latani. Events that indirectly effected her or merely occurred during her life time are not really appropriate ie Palestinians refugees flooding southern Lebanon and PLO bases being constructed are not really necessary although they are of course appropriate for the Lebanese Civil war page. The problem with putting excess historical elements in this article is they present a very one sided view of the Lebanese Civil war. Discussing only the alleged atrocities of Islamic militias neglects alleged atrocities committed by Christian militias. No one article can "give the whole story" thats why it needs links to the stories that surround it. Daniel J. Leivick 22:10, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Independent Source
Yesterday I added the following sentence "It should be noted that those accounts are solely Gabriel's, and that they have not yet been validated by an independent and unbiased source.", which was later deleted by Mr.Daniel J. Leivick with the remark "I think that it is clear that this is solely her account.". On a first look I would agree, however even though that it's clear these are her own accounts, it still does not establish the fact her accounts have never been verified by independent and unbiased sources, which I think is necessary given her obvious anti-islam / anti-muslim biases. Therefore I would argue to include that sentence or any with an equivalent meaning. However before doing so I'd appreciate it if Mr. Leivick writes down what he thinks, since it would serve no purpose if we just keep adding and deleting the same comment over. --bobo, Dec 12, 2006
In my opinion the use of words like "she claims" and "she states" make it abundantly clear that these are her words rather than indisputable facts. The addition of a paragraph like the one you purpose makes it feel as if her statements are likely to be false which is also not verifiable. I would not be opposed to a rewrite of the section along the line of "In a speech to the Heritage Foundation she described her early life as..." I still do not like the fact that the early life section only cite one source but the addition of a disclaimer pushes the POV to the other side a little. Daniel J. Leivick 01:15, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I've tried to post the following information, but it keeps getting deleted:
I think it is objective to point out that despite her very public life - being a journalist in Israel, that no independent source can be found. I have researched this question through the net, with her book publisher, and with several non-profit organizations who work on Interfaith relations. This information is not pejorative, but objective. Given the ongoing debate about his issue, it seems that at the very least a disputed tag should be placed on this issue. Can someone help me do this?
[edit] WTF
Who the heck is dropping fact tags on the most basic info like her status as a Lebanese Maronite. Yeah because swarthy looking people named "Gabriel" are always from other places, there are no Gabriel's in Lebanon. Quit politicizing the article with tags, idiots.
How about no dirka dirka jihads edit this page or even comment it because it apparently pisses em off. Let her views and accounts be put into the article. After all she was THERE and you all weren't so who are you to contradict that?? Someones got to take out this "she claims' stuff. It is obviously biased.
[edit] Perhaps this whole entry should be deleted
Here is a definition of sourcing given to me -
Basically nothing that you've experienced personally can be included in Wikipedia. All of our content has to be attributable to a reliable source. If you want to add something to Wikipedia (particularly when it comes to biographical details) it must be easliy verifiable by readers. Obviously personal experience does not qualify. (→Netscott) 05:12, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Given this definition - it seems that this whole entry needs to be deleted: 1) the majority of this entry is Ms. Gabriel's personal experience. 2) Nothing in her entry is attributable to a reliable source - all of her biographical material comes directly from her. 3) Nothing can be verified.
Darryl Fairchild
- Misinterpretation. To make this simple, "claims" of any kind must be supported by references. AQu01rius (User • Talk) 05:37, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I had a personal conversation with Ms. Gabriel. She shared information that I believe is important for her entry. However, despite my attempt to provide a citation - similar to those used in Turabian - my entries continue to be deleted. I can give the names of all of those present, the date, the location, etc. Is there anyway to include this information in Ms. Gabriel's entry.
