Talk:Brian Jones
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Brian Jones was a good article candidate, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. Once the objections listed below are addressed, the article can be renominated. You may also seek a review of the decision if you feel there was a mistake.
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On 23 July 1964 Jones fathered another child out of wedlock, this time to girlfriend Linda Lawrence. Jones named this child Julian Brian Lawrence, and Julian would adopt the surname Leitch after Lawrence later married the folk singer Donovan on 2 October 1970. Jones is said to have named both sons Julian in tribute to the jazz saxophonist Julian "Cannonball" Adderley.
She married him at age six?
[edit] Good Article nomination has failed
The Good article nomination for Brian Jones has failed, for the following reason:
It is not entirely well written:
"As a conclusion, it can be stated that it's improbable that a talented musician and arranger as Brian Jones couldn't have contributed musical and melodic ideas to the Stones songs. But he simply lacked the focus and vision of Jagger as a lyricist and wasn't a basic rhythm guitar player like Richards to pop out riffs on which songs could be based."
Jagger himself stated on Ruby Tuesday, when discussing the songs he wrote with Richards in the Rollin' Stone magazine "Beautiful lyrics and music, neither which I wrote", and Richards explained the title of the song being the name of a hotel he visited while on tour in the US, and the song's story actually being about a groupie. But it's Brian Jones who wrote about 85% of that song so don't erase this fact out of this entry any more, please!!
Stuff like that shouldn't be there and it also obviously displays NPOV issues.
For instance: "Jagger and Richards grew increasingly hostile towards Jones, and Jones became alienated from the rest of the group. By many accounts Jones was often a warm, friendly and outgoing person, yet these same people - including Bill Wyman - commented that Jones could often be an extremely difficult and mean person to get along with. Tensions grew, partly due to Jones's inebriated states. Other observers, again including Bill Wyman, find some fault with Jagger and Richards, claiming they were deliberately trying to push Brian out of the group. However, Jones maintained close relationships with many others outside of the Stones camp, including Bob Dylan, John Lennon, Jimi Hendrix, George Harrison, Steve Winwood and Steve Marriott."
It seems to give only nominal mention to Jones' drugs and seems to be attempting to paint Jagger and Richards as bad guys out to push him out of the group. Maybe this is the case, maybe it isn't but the aforementioned quote clearly has NPOV issues as does this statement that "Though The Stones then opened with a Johnny Winter song that was one of Brian's favorites, "I'm Yours And I'm Hers", many would say that their concert that day was the worst that they have ever given."
Who the hell is "many" any way. There are absolutely zero inline citations. There certainly are some references listed, but if anything's been used from them there's no indication in the article's text. For claims that are, judging from the comments below, contentious, more citation should be there to insure that the article "is factually accurate and verifiable."
Also, the second to last quote (a recent edit) I mentioned here has yet to be contested (though it is likely that it will be and when it does, it will probably cause article instability.
I've never reviewed one of these before but looking at this one, there are clearly some issues here that need to be addressed on the talk page to get to consensus. Good luck with that. Until then...
Also guys, sign your comments using four ~'s, like so
TonyJoe 02:22, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
No matter what Keith Richards says: the sitar played by Jones is a tamboura. It is much like a sitar, but it has no drone strings and no frets, so you can not play a melody with it. And that's exactly what you hear: drones at the end of every chorus and at the fade out. Check the rare single version on "The Single Collections", you hear the tambouri much better here. The shehani is played by Dave Mason:
Yes there is a tamboura at the beginning (as a matter of fact) of every chorus. There is also sitar in the song; around the end of the chorus (twice: as Jagger is saying 'man' and after he says 'no') you hear a very buzzy riff. You said yourself that a tamboura cannot provide melody, only drone. The difference between the striking of the tamboura and the riff at the end of the chorus is definitely there. Another way would be to compare the riff to the tamboura in Donovan's Hurdy Gurdy Man. The shehani info provided nothing for your overall argument. To make one more point, a trained musician can make a melody out of a tamboura. Watch the movie DiG! and observe Anton Newcombe strum the tamboura using a makeshift slide out of a large bottle and listen.
It was a very strange time in France. But not only in France but also in America, because of the Vietnam War and these endless disruptions.... I wrote a lot of the melody and all the words, and Keith and I sat around and made this wonderful track, with Dave Mason playing the shehani on it live. It's a kind of Indian reed instrument a bit like a primitive clarinet. It comes in at the end of the tune. It has a very wailing, strange sound.
- Mick Jagger, 1995
About the slide guitar of Jigsaw Puzzle: To my ears it is signature Keith. The only support that I have for this, is the statements by Bill Wyman, Jimmy Miller and Mick Jagger that Brian only played harmonica, some "keyboard" and acoustic guitar on the album, but clearly no electric guitar. Also, there's about 30 takes of outtakes from the March 1968 session, and Keith is experimenting with the slide melody that shows up on the final released version. And again, it sound way too freaky to be Brian. Brian was a slide master, and I just don't see him playing such a rough slide. Someone who'se not a great slide player would play something like this: great but freaky. But nobody has proof written in stone. Also, it certainly is NOT a lap steel slide. You can hear the slide touching the strings when you listen through headphones, so it simply can't be a lap steel. Last, the whining sound is a Moog synthesizer (you can clearly hear that), and Wyman has stated various times that he was the one "playing" it. The notes are way too long to be from a recorder, you simply would choke halfway.
The slide in Stray Cat Blues: there is NO slide. Listen with good headphones, turn the volume to ten: There is no slide. So, Keith doesn't play it, Brian doesn't.
Keno's site is an amateuristic website made by a non-musician. The website is poised with mistakes. Much, much better sites are http://www.nzentgraf.de and http://www.timeisonourside.com.
By the way, I am not a Keith Richards fan, I am a Stones fan since 1983.
>>>> Stop deleting the section I've added about Brian Jones' rejuvenation at Cotchford Farm. I've supported all that with clearcut evidence: quotes from Keith Richards, Jimmy Miller and Alexis Korner, and more will be on the way. >>>
It's deleted since it is absolute bullshit, taken from dubious sources. If you don't believe statements by Miller and Korner, just check out the last known pictures of Brian from April 1969: bloated, drugged out, deep eyes.
>>> And stop deleting the information about Trevor Hobley! Go check out his fanclub and contact that man - his investigation is on the verge of a colossal breakthrough. >>>
His investigation is horrible, and nothing more than mere rubbish by some psychotic anoraks. Keep it of this board as it is not factual.
(Heteren 15:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC))
Hi all, I am wondering about the electric slide guitar credit for 'Jigsaw Puzzle'. There appears to be a very divided opinion about whether it was Keith or Brian who ended up playing this part. To my ear it sounds very much in Brian's style, sound and choice of notes. Others swear it is indeed Keith who plays this part. What I would love is for someone who really knows, not just someone with wishfull thinking or an axe to grind, to present whatever evidence there is to support their opinion. 'Studio logs' have been reputed to exist for this session and if so could someone please post them somewhere on the web with a link so I can see for myself. I for one think the 'studio logs' story is bullsh*t. Secondly, many fan sites which list track credits are themselves only using guess work or repeating inaccuracies found at other sites. A Jigsaw Puzzle indeed - in good faith, Rob Strange, 15 Feb 2006
Why don't you Keith Richards and Stones fans piss off?
Go worship Richards on your own boards.
Heaven forbid that Brian Jones fans are editing information about Brian Jones. Oh no, only Keith Richards fans and Stones fans can edit information about Brian Jones, not actual Brian Jones fans.
Everything we're adding in here is supported by the facts: quotes, research and statements by people who were there with Jones in the 1960s.
Try reading some books.
Why don't you just accept that fact that Jones played a pivotal role in the Stones throughout the 1960s?
Why can't you just accept the fact that Jones was off drugs by 1968 and trying to get his life together?
Why don't you accept the fact that Jones was getting a new band together and writing songs - this is supported by Keith Richards, Jimmy Miller and Alexis Korner.
I am not responsible for the above text. That's someone named "CDB1", who chose to delete the entire discussion, and refused to leave his signature (not to mention reporting some inaccurate information).
So to whom it may concern...I do not support CDB1, whomever this person is. I do not frequent any Brian Jones fan clubs or discussion boards. I do not care one whit about the reputation of this man, I am only here to keep the article NPOV and put in as much verifiable information as possible.
There is an edit war going on between the hardcore Brian Jones fans and the hardcore Stones fans - both camps have inserted biased and unsupported information into this article. I have made way too many edits to this page, and while some of my fellow editors have corrected mistakes and help out, this edit war is ridiculous.
How about we question unverified sections and quotes on the discussion board, BEFORE we start butchering this thing? I have spent quite a bit of time writing most of the article from scratch, and really don't feel like having to re-edit it over and over when either a Jones or Richards fan messes with the article (especially since most of it, as far as I know, is pretty accurate). At the same time, if someone wishes to challenge something I put in, please bring it up here first. Who knows, maybe some of the information could be re-worded, even.
But let's discuss these things first, because nobody likes an edit war. Agreed?
ChildOfTheMoon83 20:14, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
By the by, I couldn't help but notice that a shamelessly pro-Jones editor has butchered the page yet again, putting in pictures without copyright status and some dubious information.
ChildOfTheMoon83 20:20, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Cotchford Farm
Hey Child of the Moon:
Stop deleting the section I've added about Brian Jones' rejuvenation at Cotchford Farm. I've supported all that with clearcut evidence: quotes from Keith Richards, Jimmy Miller and Alexis Korner, and more will be on the way.
Dubious information? Dubious information my ass.
And stop deleting the information about Trevor Hobley! Go check out his fanclub and contact that man - his investigation is on the verge of a colossal breakthrough.
Everyone needs to go talk to Keno, who knows MORE about the Rolling Stones than any of us and he is the source of a lot of this information.
Unlike a lot of Stones fans, Keno doesn't trash the memory of Brian Jones and is a source of valuable information.
Oh and Child of the Moon - as Jones fans, we DO care about the repuation of this man - a man's who name has been dragged through the mud and spat on.
[edit] Picture
What happened to the picture?
nevermind. -5/24/06 5:34pm
[edit] Failed GA 2
Unfortunately, this article failed for "Good Article" status.
Some of it was my doing, so I fixed my own mistakes and cleaned up the article (most of which I wrote to begin with) immensely.
However, I couldn't help but notice that a lot of it was NPOV issues, and NOT because of something I wrote.
Part of the problem is the shameless pro-Jones camp, devoted to putting only favorable information about this man in here. Supposedly he wrote all their big hits. Oh, and they seem to have deleted that part I put in about him beating up his girlfriend Anita Pallenberg (which he did, several times). And the section on "Ruby Tuesday" I cleaned up.
However, there's the other camp to deal with, too. The worst Stones concert ever was the one in his memory? Please. I have a copy of the performance. It's way better than what they did at the Superbowl this year. Also Jones not being able to write anything, I deleted. It's clear he wrote a couple of songs, the Rice Krispies commercial and "Sure I Do" at the very least. What's not clear is how many songs he wrote, or how much he contributed to 3 or 4 more popular Stones songs.
I like Brian Jones. I also like Mick Jagger and Keith Richards. I have tried, and will continue to try, to keep this as NPOV as possible. I even incorporated the viewpoints of everyone. I want the reader to make their own decisions. That's really what Wikipedia is about, isn't it?
So please, stop these ridiculous edits - they are turning an otherwise good article into fan-based hysterics. If there's something here that you feel needs changing, please discuss it here first. I want this to achieve "Good article" status and if people go mucking around with the article, putting in fake "information" and unsupported claims, then I'll just have to delete it.
Whoops, forgot to sign. The above text was me, yesterday. ChildOfTheMoon83 17:36, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Failed by me also. Lots of opinion masquerading as fact here. Given the controversy surrounding Brian Jones and the Stones, inline citations are essential I feel. --kingboyk 12:06, 2 June 2006 (UTC) (a Cheltonian)
- I'm a completely uninterested party: I'd also have failed the GA nom for three reasons: emotional text (a.k.a. non-NPOV), it needs inline cites over just a bunch of refs (no context), and I'd like a few more pictures (although I'm pretty open for convincing otherwise). dewet|✉ 12:17, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Changes
An anonymous user posted the following on the entry:
"This entry is always being changed by somebody. This doesn't show much respect."
This person's IP is 84.197.13.36.
No, it doesn't show much respect, and you proved your own point by vandalizing the article. I did just edit it, yes, to add some quotes and badly-needed citations and make a couple of minor corrections. Given that I own two comprehensive books which were written by the Stones themselves (ie, the rest of the band who was there), and one of the complaints was that there aren't enough citations, I think it's safe to say that my actions improved the article.
Do you have any specific problems with my recent change? If I made a mistake or something please let me know, I try very hard to proofread and preview the article before I change it. I would like to hear any suggestions you might have. But it's not going to become a better article just by leaving it alone, and your actions are not constructive. ChildOfTheMoon83 19:43, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Finally, a good article about Jones
Congrats to whomever rewrote large portions of the Brian Jones article on June 2, 2006. I feel this article is very accurate, open and fair. The article now should serve both camps of Jones's fans. (Heteren 12:52, 12 June 2006 (UTC))
That was me. Good to see that somebody appreciates what I'm doing. 70.162.99.43 00:12, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Damn, I keep forgetting to sign in. The last comment after Heteren's was mine. ChildOfTheMoon83 00:13, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Good Article nomination has failed
The Good article nomination for Brian Jones has failed, for the following reason(s):
Hi. I wonder about the articles POV with statements like "(The same corrupt officers who harassed Jones would go on to harass Beatle John Lennon in 1969.)" "Jones was visited by Mick Jagger, Keith Richards and Charlie Watts and was told the group he formed would continue without him." In addition to this, the article doesn't go far enough in citing claims, notable examples being the lead up to Jones leaving the stones. Concerning Jones' death while his girlfriends book is cited, it's probably a good idea to reference the book in ann official inline citation (though not required). A Final problem I see is in the "Writing credits" section; there are no citations there and is at times unencyclopedic in its tone and reads more like an essay. While you're clearly going great lengths to remain neutral in your presentation of the facts (though in its uncited assertions I can argue that it is NPOV), the prose needs some work here. "To conclude" is especially jarring. TonyJoe 15:55, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] C-Quotes
Hey, isn't this article a little heavy on the block quotes? It makes the entire thing a bit hard to read. 67.40.202.100
[edit] Hopkin-Jones?
The article gives his birth surname as Hopkin-Jones. The english birth registration index for March Quarter 1942 gives "Jones, Lewis B.H.". In other words, the Hopkin is not hyphenated with the Jones but is just another middle name. Bluewave 13:57, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Given that his name was formally registered as Jones, not Hopkin-Jones (I checked both options in the index), I shall remove the hyphen. Bluewave 07:24, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Jones' vocals
It is mentioned various times that Jones did some (back-up) vocals on Stones records. Factually he did sing back-up on the very first two albums, and live until early 1965, as did Keith Richards and Bill Wyman. By 1965, Jones ceased singing back-up, while Wyman moved to Richards' side of the stage. Wyman ceased singing live in early 1966. From 1966 onwards, Keith Richards was the only one to sing back-up to Jagger, until 1973 when Billy Preston started to sing back-up. In the studio, Jones voice can only be heard on the first two records. After 1965, his voice can not be heard on any records, including Ruby Tuesday and We Love You. About Sympathy: in the "Sympathy for the Devil" movie there's a large group set around one microphone, but if you look closely, most of the group (Jones, Wyman, Watts, Faitfull and Pallenberg) is not singing. On the cue sheets of the released version, only Jagger, Richards and Jimmy Miller are noted as doing vocals. (Heteren 12:44, 8 August 2006 (UTC))
Prove it. ChildOfTheMoon83 04:29, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
No, it's true, except Wyman was doing live back-ups until the Spring of 1967. I always credit everybody round that mike on "Sympathy" with a little backing vocals, just to be sure, and the other Stones [amongst others] are almost certainly on "Sing This All Together", but otherwise, Wyman and Jones do not sing on any released studio record after mid-1964.
John M. 17:34, 26 December 2006
Even on Ruby Tuesday? There are clearly three voices in the chorus. If the third one isn't Jones, then who is it? Jimmy Miller? And where can one find the cue sheets?
By the way, technically Jones did sing on a 1965 release, "The Rolling Stones, Now!". For example, he can be clearly heard on "Everybody Needs Somebody To Love". I know, I know...it was recorded in 1964, but it should be noted.
ChildOfTheMoon83 11:41, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Ruby Tuesday: The third voice is almost always another Jagger, the vocal chorus usually [to 1968, at least] being Richard and two Jaggers. I've got a number of bootlegged tracks wherein Jagger and Richard recorded the backing vocals first, then Jagger overdubbed the lead.
Jones is not on Everybody Needs Somebody To Love - not to my ears. Jones DOES sing on a 1965 release - "I'm Alright" from Got Live If You Want It EP / Out Of Our Heads. He backs up Richard's "Come on, come on, come on" at about the 1:30 mark. Here's my list of songs you can hear Jones' voice on, leaving aside the Sympathy question:
Come On [backing up Jagger in the chorus] Poison Ivy [Versons 1 and 2][Wyman on harmony, Jones is the third voice; mostly "aahs"] Fortune Teller [Ditto] Bye Bye Johnny [Back-ups on the chorus] Money [Back-ups on the chorus] You Better Move On [Harmonies with Wyman] I Wanna Be Your Man [Unison throughout the song, starting from the last line of the first verse, deviates a little at the end] Can I Get A Witness? [perhaps; along with Wyman? Richard? Allan Clarke? Graham Nash?] You Can Make It If You Try [probably; along with Richard and Wyman?] Walking the Dog [choruses] It's All Over Now [technically, it seems like he might've been on this, but this is probably the famous instance of Oldham "turning down his mike". He certainly made an effort to sing/lip-synch the choruses in performance. But then again, you can't hear him as far as I can see. But in the interest of completism, I'm mentioning it.] Time Is On My Side [Organ version] Empty Heart ["A-yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah", sung quite loudly into his harmonica mike] It's Alright [live- as noted above; Jones had a much bigger vocal role in this song at NME Poll Winners Party in April 1964] Salty Dog [from the Charlie is My Darling soundtrack, with Richard and Jagger, and Watts making silly "proto-Python" noises.] Sing This All Together.
If there's anymore, I'd love it, but that's it as far as I've researched, and I've done personnel listings that went down to counting handclaps.;-) I was always disappointed that Jones didn't have a more "Harrisonesque" role vocally, but the truth is that seems to be it, until we hear "Sure I Do" and [perhaps] "I Want You To Know". The truth is also obscured by people STILL claiming stuff like "It's Not Easy" and the like. John M. 5 March 2007
[edit] Honky Tonk Women
It is impossible that Jones' guitar can be heard on the released version of Honky Tonk Women. When recording Country Honk in early 1969 (Jones does not appear on Country Honk by the way) the Stones also attempted to record an electric version of the song. It is possible, but not likely (as Jones hardly contributed anything at this stage), that Jones contributed to one of the very early takes of this electric version. After Jones had left the band, Mick Taylor was asked to do overdubs on the acoustic Country Honk, and his country riffs and bends inspired the electric Honky Tonk Women (and inspired Keith to use one of Ry Cooder's riffs as an intro). The track was then recorded live in the studio, with Taylor and Richards playing guitar, and Richards adding numerous overdubs at a later stage. Therefore it is impossible that Jones plays on the released electric version of Honky Tonk Women: he was sacked before the song was recorded. Source of this information is interviews with all Stones members and Jimmy Miller, who produced the track and plays the cow-bell in the intro. (Heteren 14:54, 26 September 2006 (UTC))
[edit] YouTube links
This article is one of thousands on Wikipedia that have a link to YouTube in it. Based on the External links policy, most of these should probably be removed. I'm putting this message on the talk page, to request the regular editors take a look at the link and make sure it doesn't violate policy. In short: 1. 99% of the time YouTube should not be used as a source. 2. We must not link to material violating someone's copyright. If you are not sure whether the link on this article should be removed or if you would like to help spread this message, contact us on User talk:J.smith/YouTube Linklist. Thanks, ---J.S (t|c) 00:56, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Brian Jones Presents The Pipes Of Pan At Jajouka and Joujouka
This talk page is designated for discussions about improving the Brian Jones article. Please go to the Brian Jones Presents The Pipes Of Pan At Jajouka and Brian Jones Presents The Pipes Of Pan At Joujouka pages to learn about or work on those articles. A user has had previously an interest in this although he and I came to a resolution on this subject today at the talk page, but still other people can help edit to improve articles. They must be kept NPOV and Tuathal has told me he will try to help in that regard. The article histories and talk page histories have relevant info but there's basically a name spelling change that a band underwent in 1972 that created some confusion and thus he and I decided to have two articles to solve a simple dispute. Emerman 20:20, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Jones state in late 68/69
Again someone edited the text with remarks how splendid Jones looked at the last stage of his live, and how wonderful he was. FACT: Jones looks terrible at the R&R Circus, and Jones looks terrible on the last known pictures of him. On the making of Sympathy: Brian is slouched in a stool, to wasted to play anything decent. He's is neglected by his bandmates, only Keith Richards throws him a cigarette (but refuses to give him his lighter). (Heteren 09:22, 5 February 2007 (UTC))
The question of whether the chicken or the egg came first comes to mind. Did the Stones neglect Jones because he was too zoned out on drugs, or did Jones get into drugs because he felt neglect from his bandmates?
I wouldn't call "Jones looks terrible" a fact, I'd call that an opinion...if you want to be specific, like "his eyes were glassy and he could barely speak", which is essentially what I put in the article, then it seems more NPOV.
ChildOfTheMoon83 11:48, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
