Talk:Breast/sandbox

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[edit] Images

Here are the images currently in the article:

Closeup of female breast.jpg

Schwangerschaftsstreifen.JPG

Other images that are available for use include:

Images removed from above, and by consensus not under consideration:

(please feel free to move images from the consideration category above, to this category, or back)

[edit] Guidelines

From Wikipedia:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality/WIP-image-guidelines

Use only the image that best illustrates the point

While there may be several images available on a given topic, multiple images of the same thing don't usually add to the quality of the article. (See, for instance, version of the tribadism article.) Exceptions to this would be something like Breast - Size, Shape and Composition. If someone introduces a new image that already is represented, we should move it to the talk page, and discuss which, or how many images are appropriate, and go with consensus.

Additional images should add additional information

Some articles have an abundance of images, more than really is needed to make the point. Public nudity might be one of these, where Naturism seems about right. Anytime a new image is proposed to be added, or is added without discussion, we can put it on the talk page, and begin a discussion about adding it. The main focus should be whether the new proposed image adds quality to the article, and is a better choice than alternatives to illustrate the given point.

Existing images shouldn't be replaced without a consensus

Of course random people are going to throw images in articles all of the time. But if we have a guideline that we can apply, we can forestall people throwing their own vanity image, or favorite image over the one we have established for the lead image for an article. When they do that, we can move their image to the talk page, give a quote of our guideline, and a link to it, and begin a discussion as to whether this image is a better image than the one previously decided on.

And also:

Photographs or video of sexual acts should be hidden behind links
When possible, avoid images that are likely to offend
Artwork is preferred over photographs
Avoid photographs that make the people easily identifiable
All photographs and videos should be labeled honestly
No images created by, or including, Wikipedia editors

I think it is worth noting for the record that this guideline is not Wikipedia policy, and in fact certain parts of it are controversial as written. Although this is not the place for discussing the content of the guidelines specifically (that would be on its own page), I think it's improper to have it here without noting that it is a proposed guideline only, and not gospel. -Kadin2048 20:52, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article Sections

[edit] Lead Image

The lede paragraph of the article, and the lede image draw the attention of the reader, It should be visusally interesting, and if possible represent the topic as well as can be done.

The current image being used for lede: thumb|Closeup of female breast
I would like to use this image for lede, replacing the existing image which might be useful elsewhere in the article.

disagree, the current lead image is fine.--Honeymane_{Heghlu meH QaQ jajvam} 22:25, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Honeymane. Full disclosure: IIRC I am the editor who added the current lead image, so I am obviously in favor of its inclusion. Kasreyn 02:07, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Given the two choices (Closeup of female breast.jpg or the Manet painting), I prefer the Closeup, so I concur with Kasreyn and Honeymane. However, I'm not particularly satisfied with it overall. A photo is certainly better than a painting (I think it's absolutely ridiculous that an article on "Breasts" wouldn't have a clear, informative photograph of breasts, at the top of the article), but that photo isn't the greatest. I understand, though, that it was arrived at as a sort of compromise between people who felt that a more clinical image was objectifying women and the female body as medical objects, and other people who thought a more aesthetically pleasing / erotic photo was objectifying women as sex objects. Obviously, there is a razor's edge there, that we have to run. The breasts are both an anatomical feature, a method for feeding offspring, and a sex organ / erogenous zone; the "Lead Photo" has to try to encompass all of those roles in one image. It's difficult, to say the least, and I think the current image is the closest to it I've seen. -Kadin2048 21:01, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the lead image is good in many ways, I am a bit bothered that it is an altered breast (with a clear surgery scar). If a picture of similar quality both in aesthetics and photography could be found, but of an unaltered breast, I think that would be better. Guardian 04:27, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The person who took the picture clearly stated that they were unaltered.--Honeymane_{Heghlu meH QaQ jajvam} 03:39, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Individual Sections

[edit] 1 Anatomy

Image:Ramsey breastanat.jpg

Although I like both of these images, does having both of them add value, or is one of them sufficient? Atom 14:33, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, We have another image we could add that is similar in the gallery above, would it be better than either of these? Should we consolidate to one image, say the one on the right, since it is labelled? Atom 14:33, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I prefer the image on the right, as it has labels to define the anatomical parts. Without labels, the lefthand image is not particularly useful to the lay person. Kasreyn 02:07, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I would prefer that someone added labels to the left image. The one on the right suffers from JPEG damage. Please use a lossless format for images with text or line art! --Strait 09:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

The left image is better, as an image, but I can't vote for it without labels to indicate the various structures. So for now, I think the right one is better. If the left one was labeled, and displayed on the page in a size that allowed people to see the various structures as clearly as they can see the ones in the right image, then it would be the clear choice. -Kadin2048 21:10, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 1.1 Lymphatic drainage

[edit] 2 Function

[edit] 2.1 Breastfeeding and pregnancy

I like the image to the left, breastfeeding, very much. I think it should remain. The image on the right would be great if it were a frontal view so that we could see the breasts and see them in comparison, etc. This view doesn't really show very much related to the article, or the section. It does seem to be a pregnant woman, I'll give it that. Atom 15:06, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I like the image to the left above, it adds to the article. I feel that the image to the right above adds little of value to the article. --Matthew 05:39, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the breastfeeding image does not adequately display the role of the nipple in breastfeeding. It also belies an inherent oral Oedipal fixation on the part of older, adult males. JasonPresyl 03:05, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I discussed adding this image to the article with MotherAmy. I am not sure if it would go in this section, ore replace one or both images, or in another section. Based on the topic of this section it fits here best.

If this were a real person in the image above it might provide a better replacement for Breastfeeding.jpg to the above left, but as it is it seems to stylized to add much of value. --Matthew 05:39, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I feel that only images of actual breastfeeding, ie a mother and a baby, ought to be in this section. A possible exception to this rule might be the inclusion of an image showing a woman using a breast pump or other method of expressing milk; this would not be a very high priority for me, though. However, since breastfeeding is one of the principle natural purposes of breasts, it is important that we have a photo explicitly showing breastfeeding. Breastfeeding.jpg does this quite capably. I find it superior to the Cassat painting in informativeness, but the Cassat painting ought to stay, too, as it shows the aesthetics of breastfeeding. But if it had to be one or the other, I'd go with breastfeeding.jpg. Kasreyn 02:11, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 2.2 Other suggested functions

[edit] 3 Size and shape

[edit] 3.1 Shape and support

I think the key issue in this section is that we could collect literally hundreds of images that show differences in shape and support. The key element is the text of the section, and having one good image that represents the section on shape and support well. One image that fits well is essential. Then, after that, how many other images are needed to represent the section? Is one sufficient? Two? More? We don't desire to have just a collection of images. So the key question is, how many images are needed to support the text of the article?

In the specific case, I like both images. If one of these, or the selection in the gallery above were choices as one image to represent the section on "Shape and Support" I would choose the second (Weibliche-brust). But, that's just my opinion. Atom 14:39, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

One thing I can't tell from visual examination: in Ptosis.jpg, what is the position of the woman's abdomen? Is she leaning backwards against a bright background, or is her abdomen covered by some white garment or covering? It almost looks like her torso has been severed. Kasreyn 02:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Ptosis.jpg seems to have been taken with some sort of strange lens which distorts the perspective. I don't like it. Also, it's being considered for deletion... --Strait 09:25, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Ptosis image was deleted, see Wikipedia:Images_and_media_for_deletion/2007_January_24#Image:Ptosis.jpg as a copyvio. Atom 06:15, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 3.2 Additional, external support

[edit] 3.3 Changes

Image:Schwangerschaftsstreifen.JPG

Same comments here about one image to represent the section well. Given the two choices here, I like the "Breast and nipple changes during late pregnancy" image. The stretchmark image is not as good a quality as I would like. Atom 14:40, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

This image kind of smells of cheap porn, It would be really nice if a better image was availible. --Matthew 05:48, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I don't see that at all. How is a young pregnant woman porn? There is no action or anything in the photo, and no other people. It is visually interesting too. Each to their own opinion, I guess. Atom 02:49, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't get the porn angle from this, although I don't think it's a great image. It would be better if it were straight-on, rather than from 45-degrees like it is. But there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of alternatives, so I think it ought to stay for right now.

At risk of bringing up an idea that might really get the squeamish readers riled, it seems odd to have a section on breast changes and not consider something that shows the breast changes during puberty. It doesn't need to be a photo, because I think that would be hard to find, but there are innumerable line drawings -- the sort of thing that (used to be, anyway) in every 6th graders' Health class book?

The three major "changes" that come to mind, when I think of breasts, are (1) Puberty, (2) Pregnancy, and (3) Aging. We sort of have a photo for #2, although I'm not sure how representative it is of a pregnant woman's breasts, but it seems like it would be good to turn up diagrams or photos for #1 and #3. I think a photo of the breasts of an older woman, showing the natural effects of gravity, would also go a long way towards alleviating the accusations that we're perpetuating unattainable, Barbie-like breast ideals here. -Kadin2048 21:49, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I think WP:NOT#CENSORED is known to all particpants here, and calling this image "porn" - I don't know how you get that idea. It is a naked breast, nothing more and nothing less. Charon X/talk 16:39, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 4 Plastic surgery

These are possibilities for this section, although a better image would be nice.

The "1200cc Breast Implants.jpg" to the left is nice in that it shows actual implants, sadly, it doesn't show much, it would be better in the picture had been taken front on nude and had the person's face cropped out for privacy. I'm actually a big fan of "Breast implants.png" as it clearly differentiates submuscular versus subglanular implants. --Matthew 05:45, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

The righthand image is nice, but could do with labels explaining the anatomical significance of submuscular and subglandular implants (or possibly a caption). The righthand photo is about the best balance of informativeness and tastefulness we are likely to see (tastefulness being difficult to obtain in these images). However, I predict there would be significant resistance to the use of 1200cc Breast Implants.jpg; from what I've seen, whenever an image of large or augmented breasts is added to the wiki, accusations of prurient interest quickly follow. The question is how much of this is worth braving in order to have a photo of augmented breasts. Kasreyn 02:18, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree on both counts. But, my perception was that the value (despite the unusual angle of the shot) was that it showed no nipples, and so might be more acceptable to the prudish viewer. You are probably right that someone would be upset by it, but someone is always upset about nearly every image. Given a choice of these two, the on on the right seems more appropriate. Atom 02:47, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I vote for the right-hand image, comparing the submuscular and subglandular implants, although I agree with Kasreyn that it could do with some labeling. As for the left-hand image, I agree that it would be nice to get some kind of a photo of augmented breasts, but I see a number of problems with this image. First, the angle is bad, and the clothing is distracting. It seems like the boob equivalent of an upskirt photo; there's a certain type of objectification going on here. Second, the size of the breasts in question isn't really representative of most augmented breasts, and I think would be almost inherently NPOV in terms of making augmented breasts seem unnatural and gargantuan. Optimally, we'd have both a diagram showing a cutaway of the placement of submuscular/subglandular implants, and also a well-lit, informative, nonpornographic shot of augmented breasts themselves. I suspect that a more "professional" or "encyclopedic" image of implanted breasts would probably engender less criticism from the prudes than one where it's obvious the woman is pulling up her shirt, and it looks like she's flashing the camera. -Kadin2048 21:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 5 Development

[edit] 6 Cultural status

I like this image, and it fits this section very well. Atom 14:31, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

The image is fine, but the title is overly vague. Cultural status? It's an almost meaningless phrase when applied to a single portion of human anatomy. Perhaps "Cultural Perceptions" might be a more apt alternative? Kasreyn 02:19, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 7 Disorders

A 1930 Soviet poster propagating breast care. The inscription reads: "Are you taking care of your breasts? Harden your nipples with daily washing in cold water"

I like this image, but does it belong in this section? I guess it is about breast health. Atom 14:30, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I think this image would be substantially improved if it was in english, as it is it doesn't seem to add much, as I can't read what it says. A caption translating the text might help, but I don't think it would solve the problem. --Matthew 05:41, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

The image could easily be replaced with a modern public-health image on the same topic. I'm sure there are plenty of public-service ad images out there which advise women to get a breast exam (I'm assuming that's what the image suggests; I can't read the text). This being the English wiki, an ad in English might be more appropriate. Kasreyn 02:21, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I see your point. But, I still like the art deco style of the image, and the intepretation is amusing (to me). Atom 02:44, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

The image and its accompanying translation (is that really what it says, about washing nipples in cold water? Or is that vandalism?) is interesting, but it might be more appropriate for a historical subsection of the "disorders" section (although I'd prefer calling the section "Health" instead of "Disorders"). A more modern image about breast health would definitely be preferable. Maybe even a US Government image about Breast Health Awareness week or something? A quick Google turned up this: [1], which is pretty terrible, but maybe something like it would be better? --Kadin2048 21:40, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 7.1 Infections and inflammations

[edit] 7.2 Benign diseases

[edit] 7.3 Malignant diseases

[edit] 8 References

[edit] 9 See also

[edit] 10 External links

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