Talk:Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu article. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.
Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~). Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Ask questions, get answers.	Be polite Assume good faith No personal attacks Be welcoming	Article policies No original research Neutral point of view Verifiability

	This page is part of the Wikipedia Martial Arts Project. Please help ensure that it follows those guidelines as much as is reasonable; if you do not agree with those guidelines, please help us improve them!	Chinese Manual of Style - Naming conventions Indic Manual of Style - Naming conventions Japanese Manual of Style Korean Manual of Style - Naming conventions
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.

Archives till 12 March, 2007

Contents 1 Origin vandalism 2 March, 12th, 2007 vandalism 3 Recent edit war 4 WIKIBJJ 5 The 'Vandal' has a point 6 Indeed... 7 I don't understand the rivalry.

[edit] Origin vandalism

DrParkes and others, please explain your systematic removal of all mention of Judo from this article despite it being the root art of BJJ, *not* Tenshin Shinyo Ryu (which is one of the contributing arts of Judo).

I have attempted to revert it as best I could to before the removal.

Raider like Indiana, please do not revert the article back to the version where Tenshin Shinyo Ryu is falesly ascribed as the source of BJJ, all mention of Judo is gone, and "Japanese" is consistently misspelled, among other errors.

Edits rolled back. A Raider Like Indiana 00:12, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

It's not vandalism but it is incorrect. Sources are the best way to end this edit war will try to get on to add some tonight. --Nate1481 08:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

If you are going to introduce WP:POV edits - at least back it up with sources. There is also not enough room in the info box to include all considered famous.Peter Rehse 09:26, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Maeda entered the Kodokan at 18 or 19 and got his reputation there. It is not known exactly how much Tenjin Shinyo-ryu he studied as a boy but it wasn't a huge amount - he was not an expert. He was a Judo guy - simple as that. Oh and its spelled Japanese.Peter Rehse 10:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I did a bit of editing to hopefully keep things in perspective.Peter Rehse 11:09, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

It' a shame to see this kind of vandalism which goes without any sources to back it up. Maeda, the father of BJJ was an incredible Judoka. Let's see what the book about Maeda by Stanlei Virgílio (ISBN 85-87585-24-X: bibliographic information: Virgílio, Stanlei - Conde Koma: O Invencível yodan da história / Stanlei Virgílio - Campinas - SP, Editora Átomo: 1-Japoneses - Brasil, Norte 2. Jiu-jitsu - Brasil 3. Judô - Brasil 4. Maeda, Otávio Mitsuyo)

Born in November, 18, 1878 in Aomori province, Hirosaki city, Funazawa village he attended to Kenritsu Itiu, a school from Hirosaki. While a child, although with a defined physic with strong arms and hips and legs he didn't have the ideal body for sumo practice, the sport he was practicing without much success. For this reason, after hearing comments about confrontations between Judo and the jiu-jitsu of that time, in which were exalted the names of Yokoyama, Shiro Saigo, Yamashita, Hajime Izogai, Suiti Nagaoka, Oda Tsunetane and other heroes of the Kodokan, who formed the first generation of fighters and teachers of that entity, he choose to follow the path and ideals of Judo since he thought it was the best for him.

This way, at seventeen year old, in 1894, he entered Waseda university, in the capital, and registered too in the Kodokan, which had moved from Hongo Shinsatyo to Koishgawa Shimatozokatyo, with a dojo of 100 tatamis.

Maeda came to the Kodokan with 1,64m and 64 kg, arriving at the capital from the rural country, was confused with the paper boy. Master Jigoro Kano with great discernment spotted him and recognized his valor and put him under the smaller of the teachers, Tsunejiro Tomita, showing that in Judo size was unimportant. Timita was a 5th dan and took Maeda under his care.

Well, this is a great book, I could go on and on to show that Maeda was a Judoka, not a Tenshi Ryu practitioner. But I will not. The information provided above will be merged in the Maeda Article, but I have to find time to do that. But in the light of seeing this vandalism in the BJJ article I am writing it, translating it from Portuguese to English in a hurry (as can be seen in the bad spelling and grammatical errors above...). It's consensus that BJJ came from Judo. I would even not list Ju-Jutsu in the origin since Maeda was a Judoka and to a less extent a Sumo fighter too. Regards Loudenvier 14:51, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] March, 12th, 2007 vandalism

I have tried to contact the user DrParkes who is constantly vandalizing the BJJ article, which we all fought hard to improve (still need lots of attention though). I have provided the reasoning on the section above, but the user keeps misbehaving himself and reverting the edits which were backed up by historical facts and references, introducing his own interpretations on the facts. He completely ignores the talk pages and also his own talk page. I don't understand this disrupting behavior, nor what one gains by doing so. Wikipedia is already criticized (without justification) for its inaccuracies, we do not need to help this wrong image prevail. I really would like some help from administrators to solve this issue. I would start by blocking this user from editing this article for a few days. Regards Loudenvier 17:22, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

This has since been reverted. --Nate 09:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edit war

Two editors were blocked moments ago for violating 3RR on this article. I would like to remind all the involved parties to avoid edit warring and take your differences to the talk page. - NYC JD (objection, asked and answered!) 17:46, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I was blocked for 24h trying to stop vandalism. My talk page has more info to anyone interested in this unfair treatment I received! Anyway, I'm back now. Loudenvier 19:37, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WIKIBJJ

Please put back wikibjj.com in the techniques external link section. thanks. 209.234.104.130 16:49, 13 March 2007 (UTC)bob

This site does not qualify under External Links policies. If, after reading the aforementioned link you still think this site deserves mention, please discuss it first here in this section of the Talk page, but rarely forum (wiki included) sites are eligible. Regards Loudenvier 19:34, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Considering the wikipedia rules that are being broken by the other links I would argue that this one not only breaks less but has far more potential than the others. But then again you clearly strong arming the community by not allowing edits on the page.67.180.71.99 03:10, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

If you examine the history of the page, a temporary locking will seem quite necessary. FlowWTG 07:27, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

It wasn't me that protected the page. A vandal was reverting every single edit to the page doing havoc here. This measure was necessary. I will clean-up the links section once again. Loudenvier 13:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The 'Vandal' has a point

While I have nothing against BJJ itself - it is an excellent fighting system/sport - I find it extrmely aggravating, to put it mildly, that the Gracies and their followers far more often than not fail to acknowledge judo, particularly kosen judo, as being the true root of BJJ. Sensei Mitsuyo Maeda, the man who introduced jujutsu (or jiu-jitsu, as they insist upon spelling it) to Brazil in the first place, spent four years training extensively in judo and traditional jujutsu in his native Japan before traveling to Brazil where he taught Carlos Gracie. I say this as a shodan (black belt) in judo and a practitioner of Brazilian jujutsu. You've got a great system, guys; just do not forget that Jigoro Kano, Mitaemon Tanabe' and, of course, Maeda are the grandfathers of what you call "Brazilian" jujutsu. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.214.47.178 (talk) 22:51, 18 March 2007 (UTC).

How do you figure? Have you ever read Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: Theory and Practice by Royler and Renzo Gracie? The authors definitely emphasize the importance of Kano and Maeda in the development of BJJ. Akqjt 06:46, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi, this is a misconception to say that Maeda practiced jiu-jitsu. Maeda was the second generation of Kodokan Judoka. He did Sumo as a youngster but with 1m64cm and 70kg he wasn't fit to Sumo. He went to train Judo at the kodokan. He never did "old-school" jiu-jitsu. When Maeda, Lako, Shimitsu, Satake and Okura arrived in Brazil all the newspapers acknowledge Maeda as a jiu-jitsu world champion even being sent from the Kodokan. Judo was almost unknown outside Japan, and all the Japanese fight was jiu-jitsu. That's the source of the confusion. It was only in 1956 that the Kodokan sent Yoshio Kihara to Brazil to introduce the nage-no-kata and to specifically separata Judo from Jiu-Jitsu, but that was too late for the Gracies to embrace a new name and BJJ is Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu, not Brazillian Judo. Regards Loudenvier 15:51, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Indeed...

Well, I just know that most of the jiu-jitsu guys, at least in the Atlanta area, tend to ignore their Japanese roots. One dojo in particular I'm thinking of, they have a Brazilian and an American flag side by side, but no Japanese flag. I insisted that they put one up, but of course I couldn't force them. Also, you know that legendary "Fight", so-called anyway, between Maeda and Gracie? Yeah, well, they try to make it sound like it was a fight, but, truth be told, it was Gracie demonstrating his ability to take a lot of falls, not much else.

Here in Brazil we call BJJ simply Jiu-Jitsu, no need to call it brazilian jiu-jitsu. Only in english language advertising the brazillian is pre-pended. You won't find a jiu-jitsu (by that I mean Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu) academy with japanese flags around here... It's considered (and indeed it is) a brazilian martial art (or should I say sport?). Since 1920s it almost evolved by itself, with the Gracies. It's even harder to see this japanese root acknowledged overseas... But, even if it descended from old japanese jiu-jitsu, then this would be a japanase root too. You won't find a brazillian football (soccer for USA residents, football for the rest of the world) club with english flags, even tough football come from england. I think that's the correct reasoning behind all that. Loudenvier 18:38, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Don´t try arguing with Loudenvier or his alternate sockpuppet identities. Loudenvier/FlowWTG/Nate will just get you banned and have your contributions hounded off Wikipedia. Disagreeing with anything they say is punishable by eradication. One only has to look at that proud martyr to Truth, DrParkes.

[edit] I don't understand the rivalry.

I do judo, I do traditional jujitsu and I do BJJ. They shouldn't be rivals; they all compliment each other perfectly. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ThakarianDwarfTorvor (talk • contribs) 22:38, 19 March 2007 (UTC).

To be honest neither do I, with this article we just want the facts correct. --Nate 09:44, 20 March 2007 (UTC)