Talk:Branch stacking

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Oh dear, we have opened a can of worms here, haven't we comrades? OK, I will abstain from any further comments about Kim (no relation) Carr and the Anstey branch if the SL editors exercise similar restraint. We don't want this article to reflect more badly on the ALP than the facts merit, now do we? Adam 01:17, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Interesting to note Andrew Murray, Democrats windbag has called for the criminalisation of branch stacking, maybe we should something about that. Newshounder 03:15, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

That would be an unwarranted interference by the state in the internal affairs of voluntary associations. The state does have an interest in the financial probity of political parties which get public funding (see the Pauline Hanson fraud case), but beyond that these are not matters of public interest. Adam 05:20, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

There is a Conference paper on the subject of branch stacking delivered at the ANU in 2000 that claims it is widely practices in the Victorian ALP and is largely ethnic

www.apsa2000.anu.edu.au/confpapers/allan.rtf

Ṭ==other parties (other than alp)== With only a small amount of imagination (and a slight grasp of human pscychology) would indicate that of course all political parties/unions etc (in fact whereever political behaviour applies) branch stacking occurs. Joan Gos 05:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

This is an evidence-based encyclopaedia, not an imagination-based one. Adam 05:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Surely youre not saying that in all other ausrtralian political parties a form of leninist centrism obtains? Where everyone is both publically and privately at one with the leadership?Joan Gos 05:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Well I would be grateful if someone could show me evidence of factions in ALP? Things such as times of meetings, memberships lists, minutes of meetings, apologies etc. They are just convenient journalistic cliches to describe constantly changing allegiances. Adam asserts that they exist --but no evidence is forthcoming.Lentisco 06:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

That is quite untrue. In the ALP the factions are formal organisations with secretaries, bank accounts, membership lists etc etc. This fact is widely known and any google for Socialist Left or Labor Unity will confirm it. Adam 06:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I was at Queensland Labor Party state conference last weekend. I was there with the support of a faction. My faction competed with others to get its candidates elected to party positions, and exhibited a highly disciplined, systemised approach to winning the necessary ballots and gaining the necessary votes. The policy positions of the conference were negotiated through leaders of the three factions. Questions of both party rules and party policy were decided along factional lines. Three delegates out of 300 had no affiliation of any kind to any faction. Slac speak up! 06:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Anhyway this is not an article about factions, it is about branch stacking. Branch stacking is a well-known fact in the ALP, and also exists in the Liberal Party (at least one Liberal branch was dissolved earlier this year after being stacked during a state preselection). I want to see some EVIDENCE that branch stacking takes place in the Greens or the Democrats. Until such evidence appears, I will delete this unsourced assertion. Adam 06:19, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

The phrase The policy positions of the conference were negotiated through leaders of the three factions says it all really. The phrases this fact is widely known and well-known fact arent evidence and dont really convince me of their actuality. But you two alp apparatchiks Adam and Slac seem to be convinced-and thats the main thing isnt it? Lentisco 06:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

If are ALP apparatchiks you might do us the courtesy of acknowledging that we know something about the ALP. We are stating, we are admitting, that there are factions and branch-stacking in the ALP, OK? That is not the issue. The issus is the statement about "other parties." If you want the article to refer to '"other parties" then you must produce some evidence for that reference. Adam 06:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Adam Carr said: "I don't believe this - branch stacking is a by-product of factions, and only the ALP and the Libs have factions". I would also like to add that while branch stacking is not a by-product of the existance of safe seats for a political party, it would be bizarre for such activity to occur in the absense of safe seats. Even in the Tasmanian Senate the Greens do not have a safe seat as Christine Milne just snuck in on preferences at the 2004 election. The Greens and the Democrats have no safe seats, they have no factions. If someone has seen branch stacking mentioned in Crikey in regards to either of these parties, or any 'other' parties in Australia, first make sure it isn't a Christian Kerr fantasy (he is unduly critical of all minor parties except the DLP), then cite the source from the Crikey archives.

What people have been asserting here is, simply, that branch stacking is human political nature, therefore it occurs everywhere. That claim by itself requires a source, you can't just assume that as many editors to this page have. Look at the causes or contributing factors towards the practice of branch stacking, which are factions and to a lesser extent safe seats. Grumpyyoungman01 10:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)