Talk:Brain Age: Train Your Brain in Minutes a Day!

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move. -- tariqabjotu 15:29, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Dr. Kawashima's Brain Training: How Old Is Your Brain? → Brain Age: Train Your Brain in Minutes a Day! — I explained at WP:CVG, but briefly: the article was moved unilaterally by a user (and edited several redirects, preventing non-admins from moving it back). Brain Age gets over 10x as many Google hits (463,000 vs. 38,300), has been a big hit in North Amerca (one of the top 10 games of 2006) and is the more common name based on how it is referred to in the media. TJ Spyke 04:19, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.

[edit] Survey - in support of the move

1. Strong Support as nominator (here plus my comments at WP:CVG). Ignore ALTP and his comments about Google hits, "Brain Age: Train Your Brain in Minutes a day" gets over 10x as many Google hits as "Brain Training: How Old is Your Brain?". TJ Spyke 04:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
2. Support Wikipedia:Naming conventions clearly supports that the most common name to english speakers should be used in a tie such as this. Jedi6-(need help?) 05:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
3. Support ALTP added edit history to prevent other people from moving it back and also moved it over the objections of several users on the CVG talk page. There was no consensus achieved in the orgiinal move, so it should be moved back. Let ALTP gain consensus there. Hbdragon88 05:13, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

   Can you back up this allegation? Looks like a reasonably genuine redirect fix after a serial move. Chris cheese whine 12:57, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

   I finally pulled up the ArbCom case that I had remembered - see the AndiyK ArbCom decision. Hbdragon88 04:16, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

   Hbdragon88 doesn't back up his unfounded allegations? OMG. - A Link to the Past (talk) 04:21, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

4. Support, as far as I can tell, it was the original page title and both are valid. Google is also cool, even though it wouldn't be a good reason by itself. Voretus 20:31, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
5. Support. In the case of two valid names, original should be restored. Don't really see need to include subtitles, however. Gene Nygaard 21:35, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

   Huh? I'm confused. You don't use evidence that the original name is better, you just say that I need a consensus for this move. So pray tell - if I did do a vote, what would you vote and why? - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:47, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

6. A Link to the Past moved (twice... no wait, thrice) Trace Memory to Another Code: Two Memories because European name, and it was released in Europe before the North American version. I would like to see some consistence in his arguments from time to time. -- ReyBrujo 03:10, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

   You forgot to mention that there is only ONE thing on either side that isn't anecdotal evidence for Trace Memory's move dispute - what you just mentioned. If Trace Memory had verifiably sold more than double as copies in NA than it did in EU, I wouldn't move it. However, I am not arguing for "first appearance tops all" at any point. I'm saying "since it's the best argument I have and is better than your argument, it works". Brain Age coming to NA before Brain Training came to EU doesn't matter, because Brain Training is the name in EU and Australia, and it is also more popular in those two territories than NA. At no point should being released in NA trump that. - A Link to the Past (talk) 03:23, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

   The problem with your theory though A Link to the Past is that page names should reflect what English readers while look up in situations like this and not sales numbers. There are far more english readers in the Americas than the UK. While the all of Europe may have sold more than America, America has sold more than the UK (and other English speaking countries). Jedi6-(need help?) 03:33, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

   (multiple edit conflict) Never in your move attempts you stated you were moving them based in amount of copies sold. The three times were based simply in "it launched first in Europe". Now you are trying with the "sold" amount. However, this guideline is pretty clear: use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things You are basing yourself in the fact that, since the game sold more in Europe, it is more known than in US. However, check the References section of the article: 4 mentions to Brain Training, 13 mentions to Brain Age. Therefore, per the article's own references, it is clear the game is better known as Brain Age than Brain Training. -- ReyBrujo 03:36, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

   Wow, the majority of reliable references are from North American sources? Blows my mind, never would have guessed that because North American gaming media is more powerful than European gaming media, the odds of North American media being referenced is much higher. And I never said Another Code sold more copies. I said we have no IDEA how many copies Another Code sold, but we do have the Sega Mega Drive argument to back that up, and we do know that it came first. Being moved to Brain Age isn't backed up by the SMD argument, and because the sales are exceedingly higher in EU/AU than in NA, coming first is out because it's a lesser argument. Also, English is a common language in many EU regions, so I don't see why they should be excluded. It's language, not nationality that matters. - A Link to the Past (talk) 03:47, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

   You agree that North American gaming media is more powerful (I am guessing this means North American sites are accessed by many more readers than European ones, right?). Then, wouldn't you agree that it is more likely someone who comes to this article is more likely to be referred to a North American site about the game, or come from a North American resource (say, Time magazine, in example)? Note that I prefer the old name better than the new one, but I would much prefer leaving the article in a simpler link like Brain Age or Brain Training. -- ReyBrujo 04:19, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey - in opposition to the move

1. Strong opposition. Brain Training is the original name (precedence set by Sega Mega Drive, the game is based on a book called Brain Training, "Brain Training" gets more hits than "Brain Age", is more successful in Europe (a weaker market than NA). - A Link to the Past (talk) 04:35, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
   • What? Brain Training does NOT get more Google Hits. Using both the shortened names (Brain Age and Brain Training) and the full names get way more Google hits for the North American name. Also, there are 708 million people in Europe (compared to 310 million for US/Canada. TJ Spyke 04:44, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
     • And that proves that the EU market is stronger why...? Are you saying that population is the only determining factor in a market's strength? Regardless, the attach ratio of Brain Training is 5:1, compared to Brain Age's 10:1 (just for trivia's note, Nintendogs in Europe is 2:1). Google hits are purely anecdotal evidence, and do not cancel out the fact that it is the original name (an argument successfully used for the Sega Mega Drive article), does not factor in that there is a book related to the game called Brain Training, the fact that it sold more in Europe, the fact that it is the #2. best-selling DS game ever in Europe, and only the #5. best-selling DS game ever in North America. In Japan, it's #5., while the sequel is #3. Your only arguments are that it was Brain Age in NA first, and the Google hits. The only GOOD argument is the "first come, first serve" argument, but we KNOW that it is more popular, and we KNOW that the name was originally Brain Training. - A Link to the Past (talk) 04:55, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
       • Where did those attach ratios come from? And where did those numbers like it being the second best DS game in Europe come from? TJ Spyke 05:30, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
         • Nintendo press releases and NPD data. In Europe, Nintendogs = 5 million, Brain Age = 2 million, New Super Mario Bros. = 2 million. And I'm still waiting for why sales figures, being the original name, and being based on a book called Brain Training loses to Google hits. It'd be great to know. Oh, by the way - Brain Training is presently the number one selling DS game week after week in the UK. Not so in North America. It's also the best-selling in Germany week after week (and sometimes, it's the best selling of any game in that week), and one of the best-selling games in France. I don't see how you can argue that despite a clear disadvantage in popularity, Brain Age should take the title. English is a common language throughout Europe, even in countries where it isn't the primary language.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by A Link to the Past (talk • contribs) 06:08, 7 February 2007.
         • [2] [3]
2. Oppose, as the search engine test by itself is not good grounds for a move. Chris cheese whine 08:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
3. Oppose. There is no sound encyclopedic reason to give a Wikipedia article an advertising blurb as a title. — Athænara ✉ 22:32, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
   • Both Dr. Kawashima's Brain Training: How Old Is Your Brain? and Brain Age: Train your Brain in Minutes a Day! are both the full title of the game. Jedi6-(need help?) 01:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments:

Google hits? USA is a stronger industry, and thusly has more media coverage, and thusly will get more hits. Considering how much larger the industry is in North America compared to Europe, the fact that Brain Training has almost outsold Brain Age by 2:1 speaks to how much more popular it is in Europe. Also, it's the original name. Brain Training is the name of the book, and in all but one in the world in which it has been released, it is known as Brain Training. Brain Age in North America is the exception. I don't understand the idea that Brain Age, which sold less, is not the original name, and is in a stronger market should be the name instead of the original name, which sold more, and is in weaker markets. In Europe, it's sold more. In Japan, it's sold more. The only region Brain Age has beaten Brain Training in is Australia, and DS Lite is not very strong there at all compared to NA, EU, or JP. And will you stop trying to paint my actions as acting bad faith?! You keep making it seem like I changed the redirects for the sake of forcing the situation my way. - A Link to the Past (talk) 04:35, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Brain Training is not the name of the book. It's Train Your Brain, a slightly different title, but in any case it should not be used to justify the name of hte game. As far as I know, sales are not the sole indication of how any article should be named; it's based on the most common name. Your move is in bad faith because you purposefully added edit history to the redirect to prevent others from moving it back, thus forcing this discussion here. Hbdragon88 05:09, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Great logic - based on absolutely nothing, I acted in bad faith. I guess whenever anyone fixes redirects, it cannot be anything BUT acting in bad faith. Have you ever read a single policy on Wikipedia in your life (other than "assuming bad faith", of course). - A Link to the Past (talk) 22:49, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

You started an informal discussion on the CVG talk page asking whether the page should be moved or not. Despite the numerous objections, you moved it over anyway. Obviously I doubt good faith here, would you mind explaining why you moved it over anyway? Hbdragon88 05:00, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Popularity? - A Link to the Past (talk) 05:22, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

There seems to be a great deal of confusion. See, the only arguments that work for Brain Age are "it came to NA first" and "Google hits" (which is anecdotal evidence that leans towards North America on account of the fact that many of the top hits for this game come from the biggest media websites, which are all based in NA). However, I can state for a fact that it has sold significantly more in Europe + Australia (Hell, EU alone outsells it, Australia's just an extra nail in the coffin). The name is not incorrect to the Japanese name, and is recognized by more EU/AU DS owners than NA DS owners.

I have provided EU sales for Brain Age, but will not provide NA sales - would if I could, but NPD forbids posting that information. However, AGF more or less states that you'll have to trust me in that what I say is true. - A Link to the Past (talk) 03:32, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, this need not even be voted on. The ArbCom has ruled that move pages that have become irreverislbe can be moved back without a WP:RM discussion. See Reveral of irreversible page moves on the AndiyK decision. Hbdragon88 04:13, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.