Talk:Brabham

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Contents

[edit] Motor Racing Developments

I believe the official name of the Brabham team was "Motor Racing Developments", and not Brabham Racing organization. Jack Brabham was staunchly against using his own name as part of the team, and insisted on the "MRD" name - though it sounded rather unfortunate when spoken by a French commentator. The Brabham name was adopted as a moniker by commentators, but the actual entrant name on all the team's GP Entries was Motor Racing Developments. Is it possible that the author has confused Brabham with Ken Tyrrell's 'Tyrrell Racing Organisation'? Posthocergopropterhoc 5 July 2005 04:01 (UTC)

A few months ago I e-mailed Donn Gurney, who is the contact person at Brabham's website, on this very issue; apparently he asked Sir Jack, who confirmed that Brabham Racing Organisation is the correct full name for his team. — Dan | Talk 15:02, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
The team was "Brabham Racing Organisation". But the constructor was called "Motor Racing Developments". Brabham saw BRO as just another one of several MRD clients. --Pc13 22:17, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed move from BRO to Brabham

Motor Racing Developments was the main company which manufactured the cars, and although BRO was the works F1 team from 1962 to 1969, it was MRD that was the entrant after that. On the policy that has been applied to other teams, this article should really be called 'Motor Racing Developments, Ltd.' but that would be hopelessly confusing. It might be better if this article was renamed 'Brabham', never properly the name of the team, but what most people know it as, and 'Brabham Racing Organisation' and 'Motor Racing Developments' redirected here. That way, most people get what they expect, and those who know the correct full titles also do so. Thoughts? 4u1e 17:44, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I'll second that plan. That is similar to the manner in which the Surtees team has been handled. Although Team Surtees (the race entrant) went through a number of names (Brooke Bond OXO etc etc) they all link back to the main Surtees page, as does the official constructor: Surtees Racing Organisation. Pyrope 15:18, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Works for me. Any other views? 4u1e 17:42, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
See also discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Formula_One#Brabham. 4u1e 04:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Page moved. Cheers. -GTBacchus(talk) 07:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Irrelevant trivia

The babelfish translation of the Japanese symbols for 'Brabham', appears to be 'Brassiere bum'. Childish, yet hilarious. 4u1e 13:07, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] To do list

Things that need doing, in no particular order

  • Check the facts - I haven't done so for any of this, most of what I've added has come from other Wiki articles, with the usual caveats
  • Find some decent references for all this (I've started on this, but obviously there's a way to go...) 4u1e 07:45, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Got good hardcopy references for everything up to about 1985 now and few bits for afters. Just need to go through and apply them now...... 4u1e 22 July 2006
  • Fix the writing for the Ecclestone/Murray period, put together out of cut and pastes, so not good stylistically
Considerably better now, will revise again as I go through adding the references. 4u1e 22 July 2006
  • Fill out the post-1987 period - lots of murky financial dealings to untangle, if not much in the way of racing success.
  • Pictures would be good. (Starting to sort this out - Gerald Swan has been kind enough to allow pictures of various Brabhams from his site www.f3history.co.uk to be released under the GFDL, which covers 1969 - 1974-ish) 4u1e 23:29, 25 May 2006 (UTC) (Found some nice creative commons stuff on Flickr as well - still missing the last few years, though) 4u1e 12 June 2006 Largely covered now. Would be nice to have one from the 1990s, just to round things off 4u1e 19:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • The team summary table needs to be amended to reflect the final year of the team - its the only sensible thing to do with it, otherwise it just gets inconsistent and misleading.4u1e 13:53, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Have instead created a former F1 team template. 4u1e 9 November 2006
  • Would it be an idea to list all of the chassis types produced by Brabham, for all formulae? Perhaps somewhat like the list at Lotus Cars but in table format. There's a list of the various types here, but just taking it would be too close to copying, I think. Given the sheer number of chassis types, perhaps a link to a separate Wikipedia article would be better. 4u1e 23:29, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Done, by using a template stolen borrowed from template:Lotus 20 July 2006
  • The page doesn't have a summary of F1 World Championship results. This is going to be big - the F1 race team had a 30 year history - perhaps that could be a separate article, too. 4u1e 23:29, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Could be, but probably better to keep it on here despite its length. So long as it is treated as an appendix and doesn't break up the text. It is probably useful to compare with the manner in which the McLaren results have been tabulated. Pyrope 15:56, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Fair point - I was thinking of something more like the one at Fittipaldi Automotive, but was rather daunted by the work involved! 4u1e 17:40, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, bit much that Fittipaldi one. Ok for a team that only ever had two drivers to worry about at any one time, but for a team like Brabham that supplied customer vehicles full person-by-person-by-race results are overkill. Pyrope 18:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Having done it, that's what occured to me! I like it as it is in that article, because it's just about manageable - but have been putting it off for this one! I'll maybe work up a tarted up version of the McLaren one - although I still like the idea of a 'list' page giving the complete Brabham results, although I doubt I'll ever complete it!--4u1e 19:15, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Just gave it a quick copy edit and bumped up the pic sizes a bit (I have a small screen and dislike squinting...). There is still quite a bit or repetition, particularly between the race history and engine sections. This could do with trimming down, and maybe some internal hyperlinking to reduce the information about engines contained in the racing section? Pyrope 18:33, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Fair point re engines, thanks. I pulled those bits out originally to keep the racing history flowing without too much sidetracking. I may not have trimmed down the original text enough, though. 4u1e

[edit] Demise of the customer car business

Judging from model numbers, the production of customer cars for anything outside F1 seems to have ceased in the early 1970s after Bernie Ecclestone took over. What I've read so far (not very much!) suggests that Bernie just let the customer side die out, where you'd have thought that it could have been sold as a going concern. Anyone know what the story is? 4u1e 23:44, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Come to think of it, what company did Jack actually sell to Ron Tauranac? Was it BRO or MRD, or both?

After (much!) further reading, it seems that BRO was only the sole F1 entrant up to 1965, after that it was more of a joint effort with MRD and BRO seems to disappear at the end of 1969 when Jack sold his shares in MRD to Ron - after that the name on the entry list is almost always MRD, or a variation thereon. MRD is the company that was sold to Bernie - who has said that he wasn't interested in continuing the customer side - he may well have been right as it was around this time that Lotus and others competing in F1 also stopped producing customer cars. 4u1e 07:36, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alternative Structure

With a 30 year history, this may become a very long (tedious?) article if it basically consists only of the 'racing history'. I've already split out the MRD bit to a separate section and I'm starting to wonder whether it would be worth splitting out a more summarised 'racing history' (just a canter through who drove for the team and where the team finished in the championship - possibly even in a table?) from a narrative history which could then gloss over the 'quiet years' (1962 - 1965), (1971 - 1975?), (1989-1992?) even more than the article does at present. 4u1e

Also wondering whether 'Technical Innovations' could be a separate section as well. Candidates for inclusion could be:
  • Carbon-carbon brakes
  • The 'fan car'
  • Hydraulic suspension (to evade ride height restrictions)
  • In race re-fuelling
  • Structural use of carbon-fibre (as an addition to aluminium, not fully structural)
  • The 'lay down' BT55
4u1e 07:42, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


So this would look like:

Lead

Origins of team
Team History
Racing History
Formula One
Other Formulae
Technical Innovations
Motor Racing Developments 4u1e 06:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Done, largely. 4u1e 01:22, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nationality of team

This article has contained the statement that this is an Australian team since before I started messing about with it. Now, I'm not questioning the team's 'Australian-ness' in its first decade: Drivers, designer and most of the mechanics were from either Oz or New Zealand, and some components - most importantly the Repco engines - came from there. However, the nationality of a team is defined by the Motorsports national body under whom it was registered (hence Renault is indeed a French team, although the chassis operation is firmly based in the UK and largely staffed by Brits). Does anyone know whether Brabham was actually registered with CAMS (the Aussie motorsports body) or whether it was technically a British team? 4u1e 07:04, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Andreasu informs me that the team was registered with the UK motor racing body, not the Australian one. --4u1e 17:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Just as a query, until the advent of sponsorship liveries, the MRD/Brabham works team always ran in Australian racing colours, i.e. BRG with gold/yellow trim (see the photo of Graham Hill in the lobster claw car). How does this tally with the CSI national colours ruling that was in place until 1969? Pyrope 09:45, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Excellent question. By which I mean, I have no idea whatsoever! Given that, as you say, it was BRG with gold trim, and that other teams 'trimmed' their liveries - Lotus with yellow, for example - perhaps this was just the same thing? If so, the statement 'raced in the Australian colours' (although taken from one of the histories, I think) is a bit of an anachronism. Possibly at the time they were officially seen as racing in British colours. 4u1e 18:45, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Importance scale

The 'importance' for Wikiproject Australia is marked as 'not yet assessed' above. To start the ball rolling, I would suggest that it is 'Low: This article is of little importance to this project, but it covers a highly specific area of knowledge or an obscure piece of trivia.'. Much as I hate to say it, when it comes to writing the history of Australia, the history of Brabham the racing team is probably little more than a footnote, especially since the team was never actually based there. Jack Brabham would rank rather higher though as a triple F1 world champion and leader of the not insignificant Australian contribution to world motorsport. 4u1e 07:11, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Figured out the importance scale and ranked it 'low'.

[edit] BT46B Fan Car

I think the car was never banned. Ecclestone decided not to run it because he wanted to avoid an conflict among FOCA members. Ericd 00:43, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I can't give the actual quote at the moment, but according to Alan Henry's book on the team the concept of a fancar was banned (i.e. they closed the loophole that said that the primary purpose of the fan must be to cool the car, which had left room for its secondary purpose to be the creation of downforce), but the car was not ruled to have been illegal when it raced in Sweden - in other words it was a legitimate interpretation of the rules, which were then changed. The BT46B could not have raced again legally however, so it was in effect banned. I think what Ecclestone may have done is to decide not to fight the decision. I'll try and give quotes later today. 4u1e
From Brabham - The Grand Prix Cars (Alan Henry, 1985) page 187: "It should of course be emphasized quite categorically that the BT46B fan-car may have been outlawed after its victory at Anderstorp, but it was never declared illegal, nor was it disqualified from that Swedish Grand Prix success."
and: "although the fan-car was banned by the CSI, a technical commission from the sport's governing body examined the BT46B and broadly agreed with Gordon Murray's contention that the fan was employed 'about 70 per cent for cooling and 30 per cent for ground effect'".
From Brabham - Story of a Racing Team (Phil Dracket, 1985) page 98: "Before the French Grand Prix, the fan car had been banned, but the Swedish result was allowed to stand as the cars had raced there with official approval."
Sorry to go on at length, but the story that it wasn't banned seems to be quite common, I can only assume it comes from the true story that it wasn't illegal at the time of the race. It would have been illegal if it had raced again. Cheers. 4u1e 18:25, 27 July 2006 (UTC) (added emphasis from me ;-) 4u1e 21:58, 27 July 2006 (UTC))
I didn't remember were I had the info but now I think I read this in an interwiew of Gordon Murray in a French magazine. I think I still have this magazine somewhere.
I think that Henry is closer from the truth that Dracket. I'm quite certain that the BT46B Fan was tuned in such a way that more that 50% of the airflow was used to cool the engine, thus according to Murray it was legal.
I will try to find the article before making further comments. This may take some time... Cheers. Ericd 20:55, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Your latter comment on the percentage devoted to cooling agrees with what Henry says. Dracket's account doesn't contradict Henry's though - both say the "car was banned"! As an aside, I don't think too much of Dracket's book. Anyone who can refer to Nelson Piquet as Argentinean (albeit only once) or say that the Rover-BRM was a 'turbo' engined car hasn't done their research too carefully. 4u1e 21:58, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I will try to find Murray's interview. I think Murray considered that the CSI technical commision confirmed that the car was legal. I don't think the loophole was closed very fast, I think it was closed by a normal procedure not an urgency one. Ericd 23:30, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
The Official Formula 1 website write withdrawn not banned : http://www.formula1.com/insight/technicalinfo/11/468.html Ericd 00:53, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, I can give you two more examples of "banned" from books - 'The Concise Encyclopedia of F1' ( and 'The A-Z of racing cars' (1990). I can also (because I'm always fair!) give you one to support your side: A history of Brabham in the May 1999 edition of Motorsport says (p.43) that "contrary to popular opinion, it was never banned". The author? Alan Henry, 14 years after saying it was banned in his book!
More seriously, I've got some contemporary newspaper reports here from the Times. On June 24 1978, less than a week after the Swedish race, John Blunsden (also a writer for Motorsport) writes "The controversial Brabham-Alfa Romeo BT46B, the "fan car" with which Niki Lauda took victory at last Sunday's Swedish Grand Prix, will not be raced again, at least for the next three grand prix. This is the effect of a decision reached yesterday by the CSI...However the ban will not be retrospective..." (my emphasis again). Six days later he wrote: "The Parmalat Brabham team's BT46B, the "sucker car" has been banned from further racing, at least until August 1." (My emphasis again). For once an extremely rapid decision was taken by the CSI. The significance of August 1 is that by that date new rules were to have been agreed regarding the 'moving aerodynamics' thing. As the current regs say that aerodynamic parts may not move (hence the discussion over flexible wings) it seems that an agreement was reached. 4u1e 06:52, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

See also [1] and then [2]. 4u1e

[edit] BT50 fuel

I remember some controversy about the legality of the fuel used in the BT50. Ericd 10:49, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you're right. There were also complaints about underweight qualifying cars - exacerbated no doubt by the team's ownership by Mr Ecclestone which some felt put them in a advantageous position when it came to interpretation of the rules. I haven't really got my teeth into that part of the article yet, there may even be scope for a 'Allegations of cheating' section to cover it all. Did you ever find the Gordon Murray article regarding the BT46B, by the way, I'm genuinely interested in getting this right! 4u1e 04:37, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm still searching for it. I'm afraid you'll to wait until september as I will be travelling coast to coast in the USA in a few days. Ericd 21:42, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Lucky you! I'm going to stick to my version for now. Have a good time. 4u1e

Put something in on this topic now as well. 3 November 2006 4u1e

[edit] GA

This article is very interesting it reads well and I have promoted it as GA Gnangarra 02:51, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Info looking for a home

This seems useful and interesting information, but I can't think where to put it! Leaving it here for now.

"By now a Formula One team budget for the year was £10 - 12 million."[1] 4u1e 00:04, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

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