Talk:Boy Scouts of America

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	Boy Scouts of America is part of the Scouting WikiProject, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Scouting and Guiding on the Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to boy and girl organizations, WAGGGS and WOSM organizations as well as those not so affiliated, country and region-specific topics, and anything else related to Scouting. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
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Archives
Page organization issues: September 2005 – February 2006 Controversy issues: January 2004 – December 2005 Other issues: December 2003 – January 2006 January 2006 – March 2006 March 2006 – November 2006

Contents 1 Norman Rockwell and pictures generally 2 "Main Article" lead-ins 3 Last Paragraph in Intro 4 Improvements 5 Reorder the sections? 6 Chartered organization membership 7 Other United States Scout organizations 8 GA On Hold - Specifics 9 Advancement and recognition 10 Soccer and Scouting 11 Religious principles 12 Boy Scout Committee 13 Purpose of the BSA

[edit] Norman Rockwell and pictures generally

Norman Rockwell is mentioned in passing on this page. I suggest somehow highlighting his work for the Boy Scouts, his love for the Boy Scouts, etc. It is yet another way to show how the BSA is a pillar of American life. It includes wonderful pictures, one of which should appear on this page, perhaps one from the cover of Boys Life magazine. Look at the description for A rated pages. They say the article should have great pictures. This article does not, in my opinion, have the best of pictures at this time. A Norman Rockwell will really add quality in appearance and in tying in the BSA with American culture. The BSA is not just an organization; it's a major factor in the American way of life and has been for a long time, and this article should reflect that. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling 17:09, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, we can't use a Rockwell painting here just because it looks good. Take a look at the {{art}} tag and check the useage. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 19:09, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

We can't use a cover of Boys Life that happens to include a Rockwell painting? --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling 14:39, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Possibly. Compare the one Rockwell image I know is loaded here[1] to the Time cover of [2] West. The licensing on the artwork only allows useage in an article that is specifically obout that piece. The Time cover allows useage in an article that notes the issue represented by the cover. Time may have released article covers in this manner. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 15:56, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Can we just ask Rockwell's heirs and get permission to satify Wikipedia? --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling 00:22, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

We can use a painting in an article if there is substantial discussion of the painting. It does not have to be a complete article specifically about the painting, but it does need to be discussion, not just a mention. So, depending on how much room we want to give to the topic, it would be possible to bring it in here. I question, though, whether we want that much discussion here about one painter and his works in this top-level article. Johntex\^talk 00:52, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Rockwell is not just any painter. He is the epitome of America. The Boy Scouts are the epitome of America. The two merge in beautiful paintings that really set the BSA apart from any other organization. A sentence or two is enough, but it does set the stage for a deeply rooted American institution, and that's what I hope this article conveys, among other things, because it is true. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling 01:14, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Main Article" lead-ins

I am under the impression that when a section in this article (such as origins/history, uniforms or advancement) is associated with a "main article" that it is customary for the lead-in paragraphs of the main article be used as the text in the referring article, as is done with the membership controversies. I would make those changes myself, but they would be major changes so I brought it here to Talk. I actually think that those lead-ins would work quite nicely and would like to see the changes made. --204.113.19.8 22:10, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

You are right. I will add it to a todo list. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:41, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Last Paragraph in Intro

The 4th paragraph, describing famous scouts, doesn't summerize the organization, does it? Notice how the Girl Scouts of the USA page has a nice section "Impact on American life", which I think would hold these famous people, the Norman Rockwell reference mentioned on this talk page, mention of the List of notable Scouts (and Eagle Scouts) pages, etc, instead of trying to cram it into the organization's summary. Doesn't "11 of the 12 men on the moon were scouts" read like a factoid, not an overview of the organization? Wild Pansy 17:53, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. This article is still in need of a lot of work- we haven't even tried to promote it to GA yet. I do like that section in the GSUSA article and have indeed considered ripping it. This article has developed a lot in the last year. I will be back as soon as I get List of notable Eagle Scouts to featured status. If you want to start it, go ahead. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:03, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it needs work. Actually A-class is above GA, but many people have been editing it. Rome wasn't built in a day-;) Rlevse 18:38, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

i just wanted to add a little bit to the article. Under the OA i inserted brothhood because that is a main role as well.Spo9999 21:39, 14 November 2006 (UTC)spo9999

Looks good. I'm going to start an improvement worklist so we can get a sense of where this should go. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 21:51, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the encouragement. It is hard for me to just dive in and change someone else's work, I still feel too new! I'll see what I can do :) Wild Pansy 01:12, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

No one editor owns an article or the text thereof. You really can't break anything permanently. If you don't understand how something works, just ask. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 02:02, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Improvements

Here are a few thoughts, please comment and add as you see:

• Add "Impact on American life" like the Girl Scouts of the USA article. Move the last paragraph of the lead-in to this section. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 22:01, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Concur. --Smack (talk) 00:27, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
  • can someone add another example to the "Derby" about scouting in general, then collect the moonwalkers/presidents/etc together? Wild Pansy 03:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

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• Good Turns: Should be expanded, but I think it will grow beyond this article. Perhaps fold into the History of the Boy Scouts of America. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 22:01, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
  • This does look like it should be a section of the "History" article. However, this article needs to define a Good Turn. Originally, the term refers to any favor or kindness, but nationwide actions such as the "Good Turn for America" obviously represent something different.

*Advancement and recognition: Needs to be updated from the membership articles. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 22:01, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

*Other United States Scout organizations: This list is missing any number of groups like Star Scouts America and SpiralScouts, but I'm not sure it should be in this article. Perhaps this needs to be moved to List of Scouting organizations in the United States of America or List of youth organizations in the United States of America and linked. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 22:01, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

• • Concur. --Smack (talk) 00:27, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• "Impact on American life" - written from American perspective rather than international, e.g. "... Boy Scouts are well known throughout _our_ culture" should be perhaps written as "...are well known throughout American culture" etc. Also I'm not sure about the 11/12 Astronauts comment. Did the 11 specifically identify themselves as scouts or attribute their achievements to scouting? If not it's a random statistical coincidence (albeit unlikely). --Nickj69 16:55, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

That is an awkward sentence. The astronaut info is pulled from the BSA fact sheet that is used as the reference. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 17:06, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I distinctly remember Armstrong discussing a link between his attaining Eagle Scout and being a pilot/astronaut... wish I could remember the article, though. Horus Kol 09:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Steven Spielberg says working on Cinematography merit badge is one reason he got into film making. He is the author of the modern Cinematography merit badge requirements.Rlevse 13:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Should we have a mention of David Hahn - the "Nuclear Boy Scout"? We tell this story to our Explorer Scouts whenever we get the chance... Horus Kol 14:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reorder the sections?

Again, not sure this is right, but I'd change the major sections to something like this:

• Origins ..which leads to the BSA's unique...
• Ideals ..which is implemented by ...
• Program Divisions ..which REALLY is implemented by ...
• Organization

I like that. --Gadget850 ( Ed)

The section on National Council confuses me a bit, does it mean that the Boy Scouts of America (the title of the page) is a non-profit organization known as the National Council, or are they two different things? Does the National Council publish the two magazines referenced? Does it run the museum?

Obviously this needs work. --Gadget850 ( Ed)

The rest of the sections look fine to me, except that Good Turns section does stick out a bit, does a mention of that go under the new Impact on American Life section and the meat of it go into the new page proposed earlier?

At least part should go under Impact. Good thought. --Gadget850 ( Ed)

Wild Pansy 03:16, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chartered organization membership

Are there Scout troops/units where the Scouts have to be members of the sponsoring organization, such as a church, in order to be a member of the troop? (Troops sponsored by the Mormon church for example.) --Jagz 17:56, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Not that I know of. Not even the Mormons require their Scouts to belong to the church (unless it's changed) because I've known non-Mormons who were in Mormon sponsored troops. What's different about the Mormon church is that Scouting is their youth program, not just something the church supports.Rlevse 18:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

So you're saying that non-Mormons boys can join Mormon sponsored troops? (I think the Mormons use church members exclusively as adult leaders.) --Jagz 18:30, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I have personally seen that, non-Mormon boys joining Mormon sponsored troops. I myself am a leader in a Catholic sponsored troop but I'm not Catholic. 19:07, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

This is true. I am an Asst. District Commissioner with several units sponsored by the LDS Church in our district. They only require that boys who want to join their units keep their standards. This is rarely a problem because the standards referred to are pretty much not smoking, drinking, swearing, etc. which most Scoutmasters would want anyway. Boys who join are treated just like LDS boys in terms of fees and awards. (The Church pays for almost all fees and awards.) Boys who belong to other churches can work on their respective religious awards, too, although this is pretty rare, because LDS Scouters are generally not familiar with the requirements.

As for adults - local leaders can ask non-LDS adults to be leaders in certain circumstances. Again, the criteria are that the keep LDS standards and that they are willing to teach boys LDS standards. It is not uncommon for parents from "mix-religion" (or whatever the PC term is) families to be involved in Scouting as adult leaders. --NThurston 16:00, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

We also have a LDS troop in our district- they allow non-LDS members. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:17, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other United States Scout organizations

I propose moving this to List of Scouting organizations in the United States. Then we can include all of the other Scouting and Scout-like associations. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:03, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

How many are there? I wouldn't like to see a list with just five entries. --Smack (talk) 06:01, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

More than I thought. See User:Gadget850/Sandbox3. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:14, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

That looks like a good starting point. Lists tend to grow like mushrooms after a rainshower, often by becoming crufty. I think this one is likely to attract many small-time, non-notable organizations. However, the corresponding section of this article hasn't done so (in fact, I think it has fewer entries now than it did a year ago), so I'm willing to support this split. --Smack (talk) 16:49, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I made a few updates. I added Exploring, Traditional Scouting and Alpha Phi Omega so we can start to clean out the See also list. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:29, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm rm'ing this section, ZHP stmt contradicts article and the other two can go in See also or the main body.Rlevse 14:46, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Rovers are a historical subject, so it rather sticks out. I just found Scouting in the United States- we can expand this to include the stuff in User:Gadget850/Sandbox3. The ZHP article does have sites for groups in the US, so they should be included, but without the "not connected" statement. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:54, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Rovers could have a para for sure, but I think a list is bad form, my 2 cents is to put them back in the body if it's expanded. The ZHP is not a part of BSA AFAIK, so I don't even think they should be in the main article. RR is a definite See also for the same reason.Rlevse 14:59, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

That is the point- the list is not a BSA list, but a list of Scouting, Scouting related and Scout-like organizations in the US. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 15:02, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

The article is on the BSA, I simply think RR and such is better in See also. If you really want it in the main body, please make it prose, not a list as if this ever goes for FA, it'll get pinged most likely. Another option is a "Scouting in the United States" article, where all Scouting related orgs would be covered, then a short summary para with a main link would be the way to go. On another note, this made GA today and was improved in the process, my whole goal. Congrats on a fine article, Gadget!Rlevse 15:15, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Let's back up. I do not want Rovers, ZHP and the other stuff in this article, nor do I want them in See also as they really have nothing to so with the BSA. I want them in a separate article. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:21, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

fine with me, looks like we crossed wires-;).Rlevse 16:53, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA On Hold - Specifics

The article is well-written and well organized. But if you're using in-line citations than all sections should have some citation in them, or you should maintain a notes section as different from a more general reference section that might include more general sources rather than citing each statement or paragraph - unless of course you're working towards FA. The following sections or sub-sections are lacking citation: Origins, all of Ideals except the portion about the left-handed handshake, four of the sections in Organization, National Scouting Museum, Advancement and Recognition, and Other United States Scout Organizations. Mocko13 02:50, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

• Concerns addressed. Thanks and good work. Mocko13 13:55, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for watching so close, I was about to leave a msg!Rlevse 15:00, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Advancement and recognition

I rewrote this yesterday. Please review it as my eyeballs are getting a bit tired on this one. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:46, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Soccer and Scouting

Should the article discuss Soccer and Scouting? [3] --Jagz 02:19, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

No, if so, then why not football/wrestling/tennis etc and Scouting.Rlevse 02:25, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Check the link- this is for the BSA Soccer and Scouting program. Yes, it should be mentioned. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 02:40, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the BSA chose soccer as a way of attracting Hispanics to Scouting. --Jagz 13:59, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, DOH on me, if it's an official program, I think it's okay.Rlevse 14:00, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

It is part of ScoutReach- I expandeded that and split it to a section. Frankly, it could become an article in its own right someday. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:08, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Religious principles

Should the article discuss the BSA's religious principles? --Jagz 13:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

● Declaration of Religious Principle, Bylaws of Boy Scouts of America, art. IX, § 1, cl. 1 “The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, ‘On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.’ The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.”

● Bylaws of Boy Scouts of America, art. IX, § 1, cls. 2-4. “The activities of the members of the Boy Scouts of America shall be carried on under conditions which show respect to the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion, as required by the twelfth point of the Scout Law, reading ‘Reverent. A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.’”

“In no case where a unit is connected with a church or other distinctively religious organization shall members of other denominations or faith be required, because of their membership in the unit, to take part in or observe a religious ceremony distinctly unique to that organization or church.”

“Only persons willing to subscribe to these declarations of principles shall be entitled to certificates of leadership in carrying out the Scouting program.”

I have been considering this, especially since several religious articles have crept into See also. It probably should go under Ideals. It is specifically noted on the adult and youth applications, so the BSA does give it some weight. Let me think on this a bit more. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:06, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Boy Scout Committee

Propose that Boy Scout Committee be merged into this article. Boy Scout Committee is about the organization of different levels of the BSA. Several parts are already noted here. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 12:54, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Please oppose or support:

• SupportRlevse 12:57, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Maybe we should have an article on the organization of different organizations. --21:20, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not sure If it comes in here, then you have a whole mess of committees to deal with such as the Pack Committee, and not just those associated with Boy Scouts. How do we decide which committees to cover and which not? --NThurston 21:35, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Well ... we could make it Boy Scouts of America unit organization and have breif paragraphs about each type of unit and district, council, region, etc. --evrik ^(talk) 21:43, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

• Or just an ==Organization== section with sub-sections on National, Region, Council, District, and Unit. That would be manageable since there is not so much program specific except and the Unit level, and at that level, they are pretty much parallel in structure. Seems vaguely familiar... --NThurston 22:02, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Each membership article (Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Varsity Scouts, Venturing, and Sea Scouts) already has a paragraph on the unit committee, duplicating what is in Boy Scout Committee. District through National organization is in this article, and in my mind, this is where the committee stuff of that level goes (there are 5 main National committees and 14 standing committees). The organization section in Boy Scouts (Boy Scouts of America) is probably most up to date at the moment. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 22:59, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

• support merge. Chris 03:54, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
• Support. The article lacks a single topic; instead, it has four. Furthermore, it's impossible to describe any of the four without expatiating on the broader structure of the BSA. It should be merged into the "Organization" section here. --Smack (talk) 05:39, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Purpose of the BSA

"The purpose of the Boy Scouts of America is to promote, through cooperation with other agencies, the ability of youth to do things for themselves and others, and to teach youth patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues. In achieving this purpose, emphasis is placed upon the Boy Scouts of America’s educational program and its oaths, promises, and codes for character development, citizenship training, and mental and physical fitness."[4] --Jagz 22:34, 30 March 2007 (UTC)