Talk:Boston Massacre

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Boston Massacre was a good article candidate, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. Once the objections listed below are addressed, the article can be renominated. You may also seek a review of the decision if you feel there was a mistake.

Date of review: 2007-02-13

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[edit] Old

David McCullough's John Adams has a completely different take on the event. From this vantage, it appears that the mob was armed, the soldiers were attacked, and that the soldiers did indeed act in self-defense. JSeer

but in the involvement of ordinary working Americans in an important revolutionary event.

I don't see how this chucking of ice at sentries constitutes an important revolutionary event

Well they shot them so yah, go figure. See also: propaganda -- Susan Mason

It was important because Sam Adams used it for propaganda and turned the unruly drunken mob into a band of patriots. --mav

So basically a drunken crowd attacked a small group of soldiers and the soldiers defended themselves?

that depends on whether u think their usage of force was appropriate to the situation. two soldiers were convicted of manslaughter. Susan Mason

I somehow doubt it's possible to get a balanced account of what really happened. But I'm sure Boston police today wouldn't be very pacifistic if attacked by a drunken hard-object-lobbing crowd

I'd like to remove the Kent State reference. There are a significant number of differences between the events. I know Wiki isn't a Usenet group, but thought I'd ask for objections first since the phrase has been in this article for some time. If there are no objections, I'll remove the reference at the end of the week.

I hought the debate over Crispus Attucks was wether he was African American, not whether he was the first victim. Rmhermen 17:09 Apr 30, 2003 (UTC)

That's a different debate. --mav
Revere incorrectly depicted the event as happening during the day, in close quarters, and with the British commander behind his troops

Unless there's an eclipse going on, it looks like there's a moon in the top left of the engraving...

fvincent 07:10, Mar 5, 2004 (UTC)

And the moon is only out at night? --mav 07:13, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I think fvincent makes a good observation. Artists generally include the moon as an indication that it is night. Artists generally include the sun as an indication that it is -- Nunh-huh 07:18, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)
And a bright blue sky is often an indication of day. day.[1] --mav
Indeed. This is not a particularly photorealistic rendering, so it's best not to assert that it is "erroneous" because we think the blue sky is a "better" indicator than the moon, especially when we know the event was at night. - Nunh-huh 07:33, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)
OK - the image has been updated and so has the text. --mav
As it works out, Revere did the engraving and the publishing, but not the colorization. This is an early case of Ted-Turner-gone-wrong. Though Revere, as publisher, still must bear a bit of responsibility for the blue. - Nunh-huh 07:46, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)~

A couple things to keep in mind: the style of the time was not to create large black areas, and colors were generally washed-out-looking compared to to what we expect (not least to save on ink expenses). So the fact that the sky is bright blue rather than pale blue could be the artist's indication that the sky should be seen as really pretty dark. But I doubt that the colorists spent as much time thinking about it as as has been spent writing about it here. :-) Stan 08:09, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

  • I agree that our "expectation" of a photographically realistic depiction is anachronistic. Besides which, the engraving was propaganda, not journalism! :) - Nunh-huh 08:32, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I'm looking at a different coloring of the picture in my American Pageant book, and the sky is a darker blue and actually appears to be depicting night. Also, in this version, the dead/wounded man in the bottom left corner is colored white instead of black.

[edit] British troops' defence

The British troops thought they were being pelted by rocks.

[edit] POV

Since I can't figure out what the problem is from reading this talk page, I'm removing the POV tag. If anyone feels like reinstating it, please explain what your specific beef with the article is. 82.92.119.11 17:24, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Where's my beef? What is meant by 'military occupation'? If it is with respect to the indigenous peoples, then that needs to be clarified. If it's with respect to the nonindigenous colonials, then is it really the correct phrase? mat_x 11:03, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
There's something too heroic with the text. My "gut feelings" says it's factually correct, and that Adams actually played exactly the role the text says, but something's missing – such as an opposing POV (which would be hard to find, politically), or details that are unexplained, things that makes one wonder. "Gut feelings" are not reason enough to POV-tag it (that would be bad discipline, IMHO), but piquant details would make no harm, I think. Rursus 14:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV tag

I want to know why this article hasn't spoken about all the gross inaccuracies in Revere's engraving. Such facts include: The fact that Crispus Attucks, an african-american is not pictured, the fact that there are too many deaths, the fact that the British are in battle formation when they were actually unformed when they were attacked and that the scene is pictured in broad daylight when the event occured at night (the only sign of this is the crescent moon in the top left)

  • Apparently you didn't read this part of the article:
" The event was illustrated by an engraver named Paul Revere who lived nearby. Revere incorrectly depicted the event as occurring in close quarters, with no snow on the ground, with Crispus Attucks as being white, and with the British commander behind his lined-up troops. With irony, the sign over the Customs House was made to read "Butcher's Hall."

Christian Remick, who colored the engraving, incorrectly depicted the event as happening during the day by adding a bright blue sky (although a quarter moon was present)." Rmhermen 15:23, August 23, 2005 (UTC)Also people died for no reason.

[edit] why people died for no reason

the first thing i don't like is the fact that people were killed for no reason what so ever. also i would like to say that it just pisses me off so much i want to go back in time and kill those people that killed the settlers —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.214.201.3 (talk • contribs).

Wow... you're kind of ignorant, huh? Ever heard of native americans? Or don't they count as important cos of their lack of essential "whiteness"? WookMuff 00:41, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok, what the first guy said sounded a little naive and out of context, I agree with that. But what does what he said have to do with Native Americans or "whiteness" at all? Why does everything have to be about race? For all you know, the first guy could be just as mad about the slaughtering of Indians as he is about the slaughtering of the Bostonians. He may even be a Native American himself. Besides, one of the people kill in the Massacre was black, so how does his anger towards the event have anything to do with "whiteness?" 5 March 2006

[edit] Some argue...

  • Recently there has been a debate over the naming of the events in boston as a "massacre". Dictionary.com defines the word "massacre" as:
    • "The act or an instance of killing a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly."
  • Some argue that the perception of the deaths of 5 colonials as qualifying as a "massacre" is proof of America's skewed and "self-centered" interpretation of history. et cetera

Could we please get the names of these "some" who make this argument? Where has this debate occurred? -Will Beback 12:21, 25 January 2006 (UTC) It depends when the term was first used. it's possible that it may have been used as part of the propaganda surrounding the event. - --80.41.25.151 17:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Riot on King's Street

I believe loyalists and anglophiles referred to this event as the "Riot on King's Street." I actually think a riot is a closer description to the event than Adams and Revere's depiction of it as a massacre. Since history is written by the victors and the colonists won the larger revolutionary struggle, this event has been named a massacre. Students of history should be able look beyond the name of the event and understand how the revolutionaries manipulated this event to drum up support for their cause. It does not excuse the actions of the soldiers, but they were not the sole instigators of the event. -Matt C. 26 January 2006

Actually this was called a "massacre" before there were any victors; in fact, before there was any war. It is an example of propaganda, not of victors writing history. I don't know the British name for the event though. Rmhermen 03:08, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
"Riot on King's Street" doesn't return any google hits, "riot on King Street" only one using it as an alternate name. Rmhermen 03:13, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the event was referred to as a "massacre" before the conclusion of the American Revolution. I apologize because I think I represented a "Riot on King's Street" as an official name. What I meant was that Loyalists and British authorities would have seen the colonists gathered that evening as a mob. John Adams, in his defense of the soldiers even describes the colonists as a mob. I do not find it unusual that there are few references to a "riot" on King Street on the good old interweb. Since it is in the interest of the revolution and later the United States to classify this event as a massacre (e.g. It portrays their actions in a more noble light), there would be little motivation for them to portray them as rioters. Had Britain been able to maintain control over the colonies (which I don't think they would have been able to do), I think it would be doubtful that they would have named this event a "massacre." I think it is an example of the propaganda being incorporated into (American) history. I believe the word "massacre" inaccurately describes the event and misleads people who may only view this event superficially. -Matt C. 28 January 2006
You would be amazed how little even comparitively well informed Britons know about the Boston Massacre, or for that matter the War of Independance. The War of 1812 , a foundation of American folklore, is a footnote in British history (in the case of the 1812 war, rightly, it was in the overall scheme of things, irrelevant, although I wouldn't suggest that about the Revolution). However, taking a British angle does throw some light on the use of "massacre". The Peterloo Massacre was roughly contemporary, had only a few more deaths, and the victors (if you can call them such) wrote the history, but it was still known as a massacre. Mind you, Tianmen Square was undeniably a massacre, and see how quickly we seem to have forgotten that.
My view, which maybe has a place here, but I wouldn't infringe on the main article, is that early US history was driven by propoganda which became folklore which has become sacred. This is not unique to America, but it isn't always good history either. Epeeist smudge 19:06, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Speaking as a British person, I'd not heard of this incident before reading the wikipedia article. I don't think British people generally are aware of the event and so I'd say it would be called whatever the international academically accepted term is. As noted by others, rightly or wrongly it is probably seen as a minor incident from the British perspective. Certainly The American War of Independence as a whole wasn't taught to me at school and I don't think that's likely to have changed much. I pity the poor history teachers trying to work out what to cover in limited time! On the other hand the Peterloo Massacre does get covered: this is seen as more central to the democratic development of our country, and with due respect, my impression of the scale of the Peterloo event was that it was larger, and being local, more immediate for people in Britain. As User:Epeeist smudge notes, people seem to remember events in their own countries than others more readily.--mgaved 13:37, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] World Series

I don't feel that the reference to the 2004 World Series is appropriate here, so I am going to take the liberty to remove it. Anyone else have strong feelings about this?--Pepper2000 00:19, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

That reference was only included because of this discussion. It probaby isn't necessary. No Guru 00:27, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] John Adams

Is it worth noting that John Adams later became President of the US?--Lepeu1999 15:58, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edward Garrick or Gerrish

I returned this to the Garrick spelling which is far more common on Google. I suspect that this originated in a misreading of a handwritten name but can't say for certain which is correct. Rmhermen 03:29, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What's the student thing about?

I don't know why we have to have a separate section about a High School student's research an important page like the "Boston Massacre" page. Jay Kay 21:10, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Christopher Seider and other details

I went on one of the Freedom Trail tours yesterday, and I learned something I didn't know before: The first person killed in the revolution wasn't one of the Boston Massacre victims. Instead, it was a boy named Christopher Seider. Seider was killed at a riot around the house of Ebeneezer Richardson (a customs official and a loyalist). After a rock thrown through his window hit Richardson's wife on the head, he fired into the crowd. Seider's death became a major piece of propaganda for the revolutionaries (playing a major role in the lead-up to the massacre). His funeral was the largest in MA up to that point (as usual, organized by Samuel Adams and paid for by John Hancock). This ties into some things already mentioned in the article: Seider's name is the last name mentioned on the headstone for the massacre victims (although they misspell it "Snider"), and one of the embellishments on Revere's engraving ("another musket shooting out of the window of the customs office") is meant to allude to that incident.

Other points from the guide's telling of the massacre:

  • Hugh White was the soldier originally on guard duty. A small crowd was hassling him and pelting him with snowballs. When a teenager named Edward Garrick insults his commanding officer, White responded by smacking him down with the butt of his musket, then smashing him again in the back of the head. The kid manages to get up and tears down the street screaming bloody murder, with predictable results.
  • An angry mob arrives, and White calls for reinforcements. He can't be heard over the crowd.
  • Preston, the commander, noticed the situation and grabbed six of his men. With bayonets affixed, they made their way through the crowd to aid White.
  • Once they got there, they tried to work their way back to the barracks (where they could barricade themselves in). However, at this point, they were blocked in by the crowd.
  • Preston stands in front of his men so he can be heard over the crowd. He orders his men to load their muskets. The soldiers made a big show of doing so in the hopes of intimidating the crowd. Some loaded their guns multiple times (overloading a musket could cause it to explode when fired).
  • Someone in the crowd asks Preston whether he intends to order his men to fire. Preston responds, "No! I'm standing in front of them; I'd be the first one to be killed!"
  • At this point, Kilroy is hit by a stick thrown by someone in the crowd. Unfortunately, the thrower is someone who got in a fight with Kilroy a week earlier, beating him badly. Kilroy shouts, "Damn you, making me fire!" and fires.
  • Preston leaps behind his men to get out of the line of fire as the other soldiers shoot. He then draws his sword and starts hitting muskets upwards while ordering his men to stop.

I need to find some good sources to verify the details of that story... --L33tminion | (talk) 18:07, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Very interesting indeed. Even if you can't verify the historical details, or if some of this turns out to be embellishment, it might be possible to add some of this into the article anyway, if clearly separated from the main account; retellings and later inventions are a critical part of the cultural significance of an event like this.
Incidentally... while you're looking for sources, it would be nice if you can find some sources for the rest of the article, too. :) — Haeleth Talk 19:17, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Political repression?

Someone just added the category "Political repression in the United States". Is this really relevant? I see nothing in the story that's particularly about politics or repression; it's not like the soldiers were breaking up a pro-independence rally or anything; the riot that led to the massacre was started by a dispute over an unpaid bill, not a dispute over politics or patriotism or freedom of assembly or any of the other things generally associated with "political repression".

It seems to me that it's been added merely because it's a historical event that was used in pro-independence propoganda before the revolution. But to indiscriminately describe everything that led to the revolution as "political repression" is blatant anti-British POV.

I shan't remove the category without checking: am I missing something? — Haeleth Talk 22:21, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Since nobody has explained what this event has to do with political repression, I am removing the category. I remain open to persuasion if anybody wants to explain where political repression comes into the story. — Haeleth Talk 17:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Massacre?

This article calls a provoked shooting into a threatening crowd by foreign soldiers which kills five people a massacre. Is this wikipedia policy for all such shooting or should we do this only if the rock throwing crowd are Americans?

Herne nz 05:44, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

The term "massacre" is similar to terrorist. It is as much a political and propagandic definition as an reality. This is the most common designation of this incident so this is the name of this article. Other incidents will be named differently. Rmhermen 06:31, 16 July 2006 (UTC
Nononono! 1. The term "massacre" is NOT similar to terrorist, 2. A massacre need not be intentional, all the less an evil konspirassy, to be called a massacre. It's just a term and if it gets negative connotations – that honors you in my eyes, but nonetheless it's a factual description of many X:es killing many Y:s. Rursus 14:58, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

If the term is being used in its 'political and propagandic definition' rather than on reality, should this be noted in the article? The term 'massacre' is accepted without question.

Herne nz 06:46, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me that the article is reasonably explicit already: "The Boston Massacre is the name commonly given to the killing of five civilians" (first sentence), "Samuel Adams and his Whig colleagues dubbed the killings "the Boston Massacre" and used it for propaganda purposes" (opening of "historical significance" section). However, that's just my opinion: if you feel the wording could be improved, please do be bold and try to improve it!
Note that a "massacre" does not have to refer to a large number of people in any case. See Massacre of Braybrook Street, for example, where only three people were killed, and where (since the killers and victims were the same nationality) it is clear that the name was not chosen for political propoganda purposes, but merely in its descriptive sense of the murder of more than one unarmed person. — Haeleth Talk 10:03, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I started looking at this page in connection with another incident, to try to establish what is considered a massacre in American history.

From what I can see:

The deaths of five people by soldiers shooting into a crowd is enough to constitute a massacre
Provocation and intimidation by the crowd, including throwing of stones and pieces of wood or the presence of men armed with large sticks does not give the soldiers the right to defend themselves with gunfire.
Even when all the accused soldiers are acquitted on murder charges, by a judical system and jury drawn from the local community, it can still be considered a massacre.
Indeed as long as it is 'commonly called' a massacre it is a massacre. (Do the British commonly call it a masssacre - or is it enough for one side to "commonly call" it a massacre?)
A massacre it has been called for over 200 years. It has caused such anger it caused an uprising against foreign troops so I have no problems calling it the Boston Massacre.
I think it sets a very useful reference point for other incidents.

Herne nz 07:34, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I think your conclusions are correct: particularly that the main reason the term "massacre" is used is simply the force of habit.
As far as what the British "commonly" call it goes, basically we don't. American history is taught very little in British schools; what little we do learn mostly covers issues like colonisation and slavery, rather than specific events. The American Revolution is taught only in the most general outline, so I think it likely that the majority of Britons have literally never heard of this incident, and those who have will probably have learnt about it from American sources, and will hence use the American name.
You will probably run into problems if you attempt to use it as a precedent for other incidents, however. It must be borne in mind that the term "massacre" was originally chosen for propoganda purposes; while the word does not require a large number to have died, it is generally only used by people who consider the killings to have been wrong. In this case, for example, even though the soldiers were not convicted of murder, I don't think you will find many people who think that the victims deserved to die.
To take some more recent examples:
  • You would probably get away with referring to the Haditha killings as a massacre, because even those who support the US military have generally accepted that those Marines did something unacceptable.
  • It would be controversial to refer to any of the instances in which Israeli troops have shot dead stone-throwing Palestinians as massacres, because supporters of the Israeli military believe that those killings are justifiable as self-defence.
  • It is unlikely that anyone would call the killing of Jean Charles de Menezes a massacre, even though he was an unarmed civilian, because the common view is that the police who shot him genuinely believed him to be about to carry out a suicide bombing attack -- even though they were wrong.
Whether there's any real logic to all this is unclear. There probably are double standards at work. The key thing to remember is that Wikipedia should always describe what people believe, rather than trying to correct it. — Haeleth Talk 18:43, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Use of term in baseball referring to Yankees vs. Red Sox

I removed an insertion in the first paragraph about the Yankees vs. Red Sox rivalry. If someone wishes to write an article on this use of the term (which refers to a 4-game series sweep of the Red Sox by the Yankees in September 1978, and a 5-game series sweep of the Red Sox by the Yankees in August 2006, both series having been played in Boston), they should write a separate article, and make a disambiguation page for Boston Massacre. MayerG 20:59, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

  • There is already some sourced content on the "Massacres" in the article Yankees-Red Sox Rivalry, and any further material is probably best placed there. MayerG 21:13, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
    • I removed it once myself. This is certainly not material that belongs in the lead section of this article. Rmhermen 21:18, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References and Citations

I created a references section to the page and started creating a few web references. I hope this will get the ball rolling. --Jmpcronin 14:51, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discrepency

There is some discrepency about when fourth and fifth victims died, at first it says that the fourth victim died "a few hours later" then 2 lines down it mentions the name, "Samuel Maverick" saying that he died the next day. Also the fifth, Patrick Carr, is said to have died "several days later" and then "two weeks later". Due to the wording of these statements, both could be true in both situations considering the fact that the event took place sometime at night and the lack of definition of "a few". But what is seen as correct? --Cheesdude 02:04, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA nomination on hold

Having reviewed this article, I cannot support it as a good article candidate, but since good progress has been made, I am mentioning the criticisms here so that the article may be improved to GA status. Specifically, I have a minor concern and a large concern. The minor concern is sourcing. While there are some inline citations and a "bibliography," I think a wider survey of sources would be important. This is a widely-discussed historical event, but only 3 published sources (plus 3 website articles) are used as references.

The major concern is that while the event itself and its direct consequences (what happened to the victims and perpetrators) are well-covered, the only coverage of the event's historical context is a sentence in the lead that the event "helped spark the American Revolution." Surely, this is an important aspect of the subject that is left out of the article. (Good articles are required to have broad coverage.) This omission is probably why another editor had assessed the article as only B-class, which I agree with. Anyway, whoever nominated the article hadn't left a note here, so the editors of this page may not even be aware that a nomination was made. But if this is to be a good article, these two points should be addressed. Mangojuicetalk 21:23, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

A well written artricle, but I would like to see more sources/refrences. Chaldean 17:56, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Ok, since no one seems to be working on the concerns at the moment, I've failed the article as a GA candidate. If someone does address them, feel free to nominate again. Mangojuicetalk 03:31, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Crispus Chicken?

I noticed that Crispus Attuck's name below one of the pictures was written as Crispus Chicken. Is this intended?

[edit] Pelham painting

The "Depictions" section discusses a painting by Henry Pelham, but there's no wikilink to Henry Pelham (there is an article, but it's about someone else with the same name), and the painting isn't shown. Is this it? http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part2/2h3147b.html --76.81.164.27 04:05, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent Vandalism and Impact

I added the section on the Impact of the Boston Massacre. It was deleted during the recent wave of vandalism. This paragraph isn't perfect, so I would like help beefing it up a little. This Impact section, which places the event in larger context, is one of the required elements in achieving Good Article status. --Jmpcronin 15:39, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

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