Talk:Borscht

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Contents 1 Characteristics of Borscht in Ukraine 2 Recipe 3 Name 4 Cabbage, potatoes and smetana. 5 Borscht in Hong Kong 6 Transliteration and smetana 7 Should "sai chaan" be in the article? 8 Green borscht?

[edit] Characteristics of Borscht in Ukraine

I visited Ukraine twice for three weeks each time. I was served borscht there about 12 times, and only twice did it have beets. The key ingredients in Ukraine seem to be either potatoes or carrots. It seemed to me that the beets were the optiional ingredient.

There are probably more recipies than regions which consider the soup their national dish. There are probably even as many recipies as cooks, as we say here in Poland. In where I live the very word barszcz is used to denote three completely different soups: biały barszcz (white borsht) is a sour soup made of grain and soured flour. Czerwony barszcz (red borsht) is the one with beetroots (although I know at least four different versions, some of them are not even red...). There is also a soup commonly called barszcz ukraiński (Ukrainian borsht) made with carrots and other vegetables, to which the beets are added only as an option. It is to be noted that, paradoxially, this soup is almost unknown in Ukraine proper... Halibutt 23:42, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)

I don't recall the term 'biały barszcz', but it sounds like what we called 'żurek' (I'm originally from Poznań). The key ingredient is rye flour which is mixed with water and allowed to ferment; it gives the soup a flavor sort of like sourdough rye bread. It also contains potatoes, onions, caraway seed, and optionally bacon and/or smoked sausage. --24.58.13.127 06:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I find it interesting that you had this experience. Within the Ukrainian community in Canada, I have never heard borshch refering to anything other than beet soup. I am mostly familiar with the Ukrainian community in the prairies of Canada, but that is where most of the Ukrainians are located. The majority of the Ukrainian community in Canada is about 3rd or 4th generation and sometimes words change over time. So, I just looked in a modern English-Ukrainian dictionary. I was only able to find the word borsch as beet-root soup under the beet-root entry. Unfortunatly, I do not have a Ukrainian-English dictionary, so I just looked up words listed under soup, beet, vegetable, carrot, & potato. Is it possible that you were always being served this non-beet borshch by people of non-Ukrainian heritage (e.g. Mennonite or from what Halibutt is saying, possibly Polish)? -- JamesTeterenko 05:43, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Borscht ALWAYS, by definition, has beets in it, at least to make, though they can be taken out when served.

[edit] Recipe

The following is a recipe for Ukranian borscht I obtained form a good friend of mine. We were teaching in Lithuania at the time. Often for lunch we would have Lithuanian borscht, which DOES NOT contain beets. I happened one day to mention during lunch that I would like a recipe for the Lithuanian version. I was asked if I would settle for a Ukranian version. Here it is.

• I have had Lithuanian borsch many times and from various sources. Grated beets have always been the main ingredient. H Padleckas 04:36, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

How to Make Ukrainian Cabbage Borscht (A thick soup) (Courtesy Lawrence Fast, St. Johns International School, Vancouver)

  Ingredients required: 
  One liter or more chicken broth
  One head of cabbage
  One or two potatoes
  Four or five or six carrots
  Four or five sticks of celery
  Two medium size onions
  Two or three or four or five cloves of garlic
  One large can of diced tomatoes
  Two or three or four sprigs of fresh dill (chopped up)
  Pickling spices (plus whatever spices are to your taste (I use sage, thyme oregano, bay leaves, rosemary, etc.))
  Salt and pepper to taste
  Worcester sauce to taste
  Olive oil 

The cooking process:

Prepare the potatoes, carrots by peeling, then slicing into bite-size pieces. Wash and slice the celery into bite-sized pieces. The onions and garlic must be peeled and chopped. The cabbage should be sliced. In a large cooking pot heat enough olive oil to fry the chopped onions and garlic over medium heat. Three or four tablespoons of oil should be enough. If not, add more oil. Let the onions and garlic simmer over medium or low heat for 8 to 10 minutes. Now add one liter of chicken broth and bring to a boil. Now add the sliced potatoes, carrots and celery; bring to a boil and simmer over medium heat until vegetables are almost tender enough to eat. While the vegetables are boiling fill a spice container* and add any other spices your heart may desire. Put the spice container in the boiling soup and leave it there until the soup is finished. While the soup is simmering add salt and pepper to taste, a dash of Worcester sauce or seasoned salt or celery salt until the soup is really tasty. If the soup becomes too thick add some more chicken broth but it should be a hearty soup with plenty of vegetables. When the vegetables seem tender, add the can of tomatoes and the shredded cabbage. Again let the soup simmer over medium heat continue tasting to see whether your imagination has worked magic. Lastly, add the chopped fresh dill. When it’s done, EAT!

• Like a metal tea ball with pickling spices. You can buy these ready mixed at Safeway or IGA.

--- (I top it off just prior to serving with a large tablespoon of sour cream. Mmmmmmm!)

Gene McManus

GenotheGreat2003@yahoo.com

Moved to Wikibooks Cookbook :) [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 11:23, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Name

I wonder where did the current name of this article came from. Borscht does not seem like an approximation of any of the original names and the transcryption seems German to me. Is this soup really called "Borscht" in English? And if so - does anyone know where did it come from? [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 21:25, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)

The correct German transcription would be "Borschtsch". My best guess the word went West via Yiddish. Mikkalai 21:41, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This soup is indeed called "Borscht" in English; I've seen it many times for sale in jars in the United States. I think Americans think of this as the typical Russian home-style food. --Pekinensis 18:53, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think it was called borstj or borsjt in old Mad Comics I have read, but the spelling could have been chosen because of exotism. 81.232.72.53 12:40, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

The English name is probably from Yiddish pronounciation; see Borscht Belt.--Pharos 18:46, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Another possibility, and I'm guessing purely on the grounds of pronunciation, is that it is a German transcription of the name in Bulgarian, борщ (borsht). Is this a feasible explanation? --Iceager 22:10, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

The real transcription should be "Borshch" because that is the spelling in russian. --195.85.172.178 22:09, 19 August 2006 (UTC)Verdulo

Sorry dude, it's the English WP. I agree borshch is the corect way to say it in Russian (or Ukrainian), BUT, that's not what you see in the Supermarket (in North America). It's always "borscht". Kevlar67 07:48, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

But outside of North America, English-speakers usually refer to it as Borshch, or simply Borsh. InfernoXV 13:18, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cabbage, potatoes and smetana.

I grew up in Moscow during the 80s and I can't seem to recollect that there was ever a question of the cabbage being optional in Russia, and I don't really recall eating a borscht prepared with potatoes. I might've had a limited culinary experience in this instance, so do correct me if I'm wrong.

I added a comment about smetana as well. I know it's not identical to creme fraiche, but it's the closest reasonable equivalent available outside Eastern Europe. Especially in mildly Russophobic Sweden... Peter Isotalo 13:10, Apr 26, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Borscht in Hong Kong

When I visited Hong Kong a few years ago, it seemed like Borscht was extremely popular there for some reason. Is this accurate, and is there any particular explanation for it other than just the Hong Kongers liking the taste? --Robert Merkel 1 July 2005 04:41 (UTC)

Wow. I was certainly not expecting this. Do they actually call anything similar to borsht or is just a Cantonese dish extremely similar to borscht? Is it claimed as being Russian or Eastern European? Do they use the same ingredients? More details would be interesting to learn of.

Peter ^Isotalo 15:43, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

It's called law soong tong in the local language, in which law soong is a translation of "Russia" or "Russian" (and tong means soup). It's tomato-based, as described in the article. It's imported, yet an localised variant. — Instantnood 20:31, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

It was brought there by White Russians early twentieth century, as I recall. I can't recall the source offhand, but its origins shouldn't be too hard to find. --Yuje 10:26, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Transliteration and smetana

I happen to be Russian, and my parents make борщ (/borç/) all the time. I personally like to transliterate it as borsh', because that last group of letters represents only one letter and one sound. It's not a good idea though because the apostrophe is generally reserved for the soft sign, and that would be an incorrect spelling. The best spelling would probably be borshch since the letter 'щ' is understood by Russians by it's historic origin, which is Ш+Ч. There's actually a Russian joke about a German princess misspelling a two-letter word by 7 letters ('щи' compared to 'schtschi').

Anyway, the beets are the main ingredient, and the process of boiling the beets along with a bone (which takes a looong time) is what gives the soup that red colour (and delicious taste). The borshch my parents make always has potatoes, cabbage, carrots, and meat in it, but I don't really remember the other ingredients. It's ALWAYS served with sour cream. I think foreigners are the only people that refuse that option. And why the hell does this page have 'smetana' seperate from sour cream? Sour cream is the literal definition of smetana.--67.177.36.200 04:58, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

It has its own article for the same reason that crème fraîche, kefir and filmjölk are separate. They have separate names and while being similar to other dairy products with English equivalents, they are not identical, especially not in terms of taste.

The Latin transliteration is indeed confusing and often misleading for anyone who doesn't know Russian, but unfortunately these are the most common. To make up for it, at least we have a sound file for the Russian pronunciation by a native speaker (me) and as soon as I can determine exactly which IPA symbol to use for the Russian 'щ' (it's not [ç], which is a voiceless palatal fricative). I don't know if you meant something else by your description of preparation, but the red color doesn't take a long time at all to achieve. Whenever I make borscht, it's with just onions, beets, some garlic, bullion cubes, black pepper corns, bay leaves and optionally carrots. It takes 30 minutes at most to get a decent soup, even if boiling it a lot longer (with meat and all) does indeed add a lot more taste. The borscht I had back in the USSR (I left for Sweden before it ever became Russia) was indeed always with meat, though I can't recall if it had potatoes or not.

Peter ^Isotalo 15:43, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

I think the Russian pronunciation might be something like /borʃʲʃʲ/. In Ukrainian it's /borʃʧ/. —Michael Z. 2005-08-14 20:07 Z

That's seems right to me too, but I would really like to find a Russian phonology that uses proper IPA to confirm it. So far I've only found books that only use a very unsatisfying modified Latin script.

Peter ^Isotalo 20:18, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

I have reason to believe that the palatalised postalveolar fricative is exactly the same as the alveolo-palatal fricative (See the discussion in the IPA article). I didn't mean to use the symbol for the palatal fricative, sorry about that. My mistake. The reason I was objecting to the 'smetana' thing is because that's the literal translation of sour cream. My family lives in America now, and even though our sour cream isn't Russian, we still call it smetana. I understand that it has a different taste, but that's no reason to pretend that's it's something completely different. Why not just call it "Russian-style sour cream", or even "Eastern-European" sour cream? But who cares, I guess I'll just drop it. In preparation, I wasn't refering to the colour only, but mostly the taste. The bone being boiled for a long time is the basis for the broth. And the potatoes aren't noticeable because they turn red from absorbing the soup, and they gain a unique taste. The pronunciation can vary because the Russian 'Щ' can be pronounced 'ɕ', 'ɕː', or 'ɕʨ".--67.177.36.200 11:46, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Hm. I just noticed smetana isn't actually a separate article, but I'm not going to create one myself. In any case, it's valid enough to point out the difference in an article about borscht. I wouldn't see the specific mention of smetana as something negative, but rather something that explains a fairly unique fact of Slavic cuisine. The fact that you call sour cream "smetana" is most likely due to the very same reason that a lot of English-speaking people call smetana "sour cream"; people use the terms they are most familiar with because it's practical. Have you ever had creme fraiche, btw? My memory might be failing me, but to me it seems closer to smetana than sour cream, though this could be a matter of Swedish sour cream being a lot different from the sour cream found in other countries.

Being a native speaker of both Russian (though it's very rusty now) and Swedish, I must concur about 'Щ' possibly being a [ɕ]. /ɕ/ is a separate phoneme in Swedish and is realized as that very sound in nearly all dialects, so I'm very familiar with the sound. It does seem very extremely similar (if not identical) to the fricative in borsht. Unfortunately, I've yet to see any source that either confirms or refutes this claim.

Peter ^Isotalo 15:05, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

If you go to the 'Polish lanuguage' article, there are some sound samples from a native Polish speaker. According to that article, 'ś' and 'ź' are alveolo-palatal fricatives along with 'ṡ' and 'ż' when they are palatalised by a following 'i'. Not only is this the same exact sound as the Russian postalveolar fricatives, it also uses the same exact concept of palatalisation.--67.177.36.200 01:42, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

From what I've heard, you guys are all correct about the nature of the sound corresponding to this letter, except that it's actually pronounced as a long sound (from its origin as two different sounds). Benwing 04:50, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Should "sai chaan" be in the article?

Who cares? This edit war is LAME. -- JamesTeterenko 00:07, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Yup. I've protected this page; everyone please go contribute somewhere else for a few days. —Michael Z. 2006-01-14 17:21 Z

Please accept my apology for the trouble it may have caused. Your contribution is desparately needed to help solve the matter, and will be highly appreciated. Thank you. — Instantnood 23:58, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Green borscht?

When I lived in Ukraine (Odessa), whenever we were served borscht we were asked if we wanted red borscht or green borscht. Obviously the red borscht is the subject of this article, but should green borscht be mentioned somewhere? (I believe it had dill in it; I don't remember exactly because I always ate the red version.) Likewise, Polish restaurants I've eaten at in the U.S. offer a choice of red borscht or white borscht. Even if the green and white versions aren't true borscht per se, it might be worth mentioning that these other non-beet-based soups are also called borscht. Thanks and cпасибо, Dmp348 22:16, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Maybe white borscht is the red one with sourcream? I always eat it with sourcream, much tastier that way. There is also so-called green soup, made from Stinging nettle, but it has little to do with borscht. Grue 13:13, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Are you guys talking about Schav? Made from sour grass (sorrel) sometimes mixed with spinach? But I've never heard it called "green borscht." It's a much different taste than any borscht, but is also eaten with sour cream. -- Cecropia 16:49, 23 July 2006 (UTC)