Talk:Borg (Star Trek)

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[edit] Discussion about the Borg's ability to adapt

Recently, some anonymous I.P. removed the whole section about the Borgs ability to adapt being unsupported by onscreen evidence. Because this anonymous coward didn't bother to supply a reason for deleting a whole section that other editors appearantly found usefull information, and mainly because I do think it was useful information, I put the whole section back. If someone thinks it should be deleted, relocated, shortened, or whatever, please do join the discussion HERE, don't just delete a whole section with perfectly good info just because you think it's irrelevant... and certainly don't delete it without giving a reason. Greetings, RagingR2 21:19, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

...and only a few days after I put that section back, another anonymous IP comes in and deletes the whole section again. Well, you know, I'm putting it back again. Several users spent time on building that section. If you think it's nonsense or you think it doesn't belong here, the least you can do is have the decency to enter a civilized discussion here on the talk page. I personally do think that section was usefull information about the Borg. And if people keep deleting it without a discussion, the only thing I feel I can do is put it back. Oh well, I hope anyone even reads this??? RagingR2 00:27, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm removing it as Original Research.

This page in a nutshell: Articles may not contain any previously unpublished arguments, concepts, data, ideas, statements, or theories. Moreover, articles may not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published arguments, concepts, data, ideas, or statements that serves to advance a position.

CovenantD 00:33, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, maybe I don't get it. But the whole thing about the Borg not being able to adapt so quickly to attacks as is sometimes stated, that whole section was backed up with a whole list of references to episodes from Star Trek TNG and VOY. How is that original research? It's merely stating the facts, and some very interesting facts at that. Maybe you have some suggestions as to what form we could mold that information in so it *would* be suitable for the article, because frankly, I do think it deserves a place in the article. In several episodes, it is stated that the Borg are able to adapt to any fact quickly. That's a fact. In several (or maybe even MORE) episodes, the Borg appear to NOT be able to adapt quickly to every attack. That's just another fact. How are facts not allowed to be in an encyclopedia article? Oh and just another point; just because you think the section that we're talking about wasn't entirely right... why do you delete the whole section? There was some good info in there that was perfectly suitable for the article appart from the whole original research debate. For instance, the part I added about the explanation that was given in one of the VOY episodes about why the Borg are not able to respond to every attack quickly. Hoping for a quick reply (and hoping for a good solution to this issue), greetings, RagingR2 01:12, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Articles may not contain any previously unpublished arguments, concepts, data, ideas, statements, or theories.
Find someplace where this has been published. Otherwise it's the classic definition of Original Research. CovenantD 01:17, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
You know, I just typed a whole story about why I think not every part of the section you deleted qualifies as original research, and all you can respond with is repeating the definition of original research again. I... don't really what to type now. Maybe I need to repeat what I said: that section was merely stating facts from the episodes. It was not a "theory" that was previously unpublished, they are just hard, solid facts, that everyone who watched the episodes could have seen. That is NOT original research, those are just FACTS. And, do me a favour, come with a reply a LITTLE more specific next time. Otherwise this is just an edit war in disguise. Typing 1-line replies is NOT a decent discussion. RagingR2 01:22, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
And oh, by the way, I'm sorry if you feel your talk page is not the place for me to start a discussion about this issue. I don't really care where we have the discussion, as long as there is place for discussion. There are too many people around here just reverting other people's additions, supplying a short explanation (if any) and then running off to never be heard of again. So sorry if I used your talk page (after all YOU were the one who made the edit) but I just wanted to make sure I got a response from you at all, after all you are likely to see a change in your own talk page more quickly than a change in the discussion page of just another one of the many pages you edited. Greetings, RagingR2 01:34, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Here is the relevant section of the policy page - What is excluded? An edit counts as original research if it proposes ideas or arguments. That is, if it does any of the following:

  1. It introduces a theory or method of solution;
  2. It introduces original ideas;
  3. It defines new terms;
  4. It provides or presumes new definitions of pre-existing terms;
  5. It introduces an argument, without citing a reputable source for that argument, that purports to refute or support another idea, theory, argument, or position;
  6. It introduces an analysis or synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor, without attributing that analysis or synthesis to a reputable source;
  7. It introduces or uses neologisms, without attributing the neologism to a reputable source.

The fact that we exclude something does not necessarily mean the material is bad — it simply means that Wikipedia is not the proper venue for it. We would have to turn away even Pulitzer-level journalism and Nobel-level science if its authors tried to publish it first on Wikipedia. If you have an idea that you think should become part of the corpus of knowledge that is Wikipedia, the best approach is to arrange to have your results published in a peer-reviewed journal or reputable news outlet, and then document your work in an appropriately non-partisan manner."

Look closely at #5. That is exactly what you are trying to retain. Again, all that is needed to make this section acceptable is to find a published source for this that meets reliable source criteria. CovenantD 01:39, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

As an outsider who has never even looked at this article before, I feel I should chime in on original research. RagingR2, while you may have linked to good sources for examples, the conclusion is still yours, which is why it is invalid for Wikipedia. I am sure if you dig, you can find someone from a reputable source with the same theory. Remember, both of you have the best interest of the article at heat, even if you currently disagree. If you remain civil through this disagreement, you may find you are in agreement on other issues. It's happened with me. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 02:55, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I get your point. I really am not trying to dump my own original theories here. However, have any of you both seen the Episode(s) Scorpion Part 1 & 2 from ST:VOY? The conclusion which you suppose is mine (well actually not just mine, since I didn't write the entire section in dispute here, but oh well), is actually pretty much literally in those episodes. Chakotay and B'Elana literally say something like "The Borg can't understand what they can't assimilate, which is why they couldn't assimilate species 8472, because they have such an advanced immune system." I could find the exact quote if you wish, but anyway, I just thought this was valuable information, added to the overall general assumption that's in the "Overview" section of the article: about the Borg being able to respond to any attack quickly. And that isn't my writing; but maybe that should be regarded as an original research conclusion that isn't backup up by any sources. Maybe we could agree on just adding those quotes from the Scorpion 1 & 2 to the Trivia section or something like that? You know, without any added conclusions or other user-made additions; just the quotes as cold hard facts. If the overall statement that the Borg is generally able to addapt to attacks quickly is allowed to be in the article because this is stated in several episodes of the series/films (and is thus not original research), than in my opinion, so is the sidenote to this general conclusion as it is stated in the Scorpion episodes. The only difference is the number of episodes it is featured in, but it's both valuable information about the Borg that does deserve a place in the article. And oh well, maybe the fact that the Borg can't always quickly addapt to an attack isn't in very many episodes, so maybe it isn't really *that* important to the overal general picture of the Borg throughout the whole franchise... that's why I am proposing to add it to the Trivia section or something like that, somewhere towards the end of the article.
(Oh and guys, you both thanks for replying by the way, I'm very glad we can have decent talk about this.)
Greetings RagingR2 10:34, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
What you propose sounds like a good compromise (at least until somebody actually does publish an analysis). The Borg have been portrayed many different ways depending on the whims of the writer - no dispute about that. It was always about the Original Research aspect. CovenantD 16:05, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I understand. It was never my intention to publish anything that's a subjective personal analysis. Well, okay, seems like we could solve this. Let's see. Now that I look at the rest of the article, doesn't this info belong to the (already existing) section about Assimilation? We could add a few sentences to the end of that section, maybe something like this:
"Asimilation is the main way for The Borg to gain information about a "new species", i.e. a species of which no individuals have been previously assimilated by The Borg. The Borg are less skilled in "investigating"; gaining information about species before they are assimilated (source: Episodes "Scorpion Part 1 & 2" from ST:VOY). Moreover, because of the way the assimilation works, species with an extremely advanced immune system such as Species 8472 are able to withstand assimilation; their immune system destroys the nanobots before they can do anything."
Tell me what you think. :) Greetings, RagingR2 16:34, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd lose the quotation marks and italics. The reference needs cleaning up, but that's easier done in place. I'd change the last sentence to something like this -

Because assimilation depends on nanoprobes, species with an extremely advanced immune system such as Species 8472 are able to withstand assimilation.

CovenantD 17:18, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, sounds good. Well, I'll add this to the article then. I just noticed there's a separate article for the "Assimilation" too. I'll check if I can add this new info to that article too in some way or another. Greetings, RagingR2 23:49, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of the Borg - the various theories

This has been tagged for a while now. Unless citations are provided soon, I'm going to start deleting the more outrageous bits of uncited Original research. CovenantD 19:21, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Please do. --OuroborosCobra 13:32, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Don't even hesitate. This article needs some heavy and merciless pruning [b]<-- RESISTANCE IS FUTILE[/b]. Chris Cunningham 14:28, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
So I got bored of staring at such abject nonsense. I've removed most of it. With any luck I can wreak as much destruction elsewhere in the article. Chris Cunningham 14:57, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Good luck, this article is so filled with personal opinions and unverifiable "facts" ("the Borg harbor no ill will to anyone" or "..the two-part episode "The Best of Both Worlds", widely considered among Star Trek’s best episodes." and yes, "Given the high technical sophistication of the Borg and her apparent destruction on numerous occasions, the Borg Queen may be some sort of unique multidimensional creature who can be in many places and times at once and/or is multiply-redundant ".) that your task seems almost impossible Chris.

@#@#@#

This whole part needs to remove, it a joke. Who cares what William Shatner thinks!

"William Shatner and Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens postulated a different base of operations for the Borg. They had the Borg "homeworld" as a planet totally converted into circuitry over millennia. The Borg Planet itself is the Queen/Hive Mind Center and it is lonely, and looking for another mind similar to itself. They also explain Borg "inconsistencies" as colonies out of direct contact with the Borg Planet, but still answering to the Hive Mind. The Borg home planet is eventually destroyed by Kirk.

No, it doesn't. It's semi-canonical. Also, I believe in one of the Dark Mirror books that Shatner wrote also mentions of the easy defeat of the Borg by the Human/Vulcan alliance in the mirror universe not too soon after first contact. --The Manator E 22:22, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

The books are non-canon, and that last bit has specifically been contradicted - the Mirror Universe didn't establish a Human/Vulcan alliance at First Contact, In a Mirror, Darkly (Enterprise episode) showed us that the Humans stormed the Vulcan ship, and subjagated them. --Mnemeson 22:26, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


I thought that the people behind the writting of star trek already resolved this,

V'Ger created the Borg end of discussion. Star Trek Legacy and the books already explained the borg's origin. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DBZ Bane (talk • contribs) 09:04, 10 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Removing the episode listings

They take up tons of space and don't seem to be adding a lot to the article. Any objections? Chris Cunningham 15:57, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

They are available at the first External link, so I agree that they can be removed here. CovenantD 20:57, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. This is really beginning to look promising. Chris Cunningham 08:19, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origins of the name "Borg"

Under the headline overview it says that the name "Borg" is a short version of cybernetic organism. I would just like to know if this is a fact or if this is an opinion about the origin of the name. I thought that the word Borg was a "name" of the "species" itself.


--While never directly stated, the name "Borg" is simply a short version of "Cyborg" which in effect, is a short version of "Cybernetic Organism." The Borg do not have a species, nor have they created one. One way to think of it, is another nationality. Americans refer to themselves as Americans, but that is not their Race. It is simply easier than saying "Chinese, Japanaese, Native American, British, Canadian, etc...Human". So, rather than say a bunch of species names, they simply call themselves the borg. It's just a bunch of species that only have the fact that their thoughts are given to them, and cybernetic additions in common. Kasha4890 01:06, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No references section

Why does this article have no references section? If nobody responds within the next day or so I will assume it's ok to add one. (And, yes, I do have a reference to put in it.) Sfaiku 09:06, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

You can add it now if you want; you don't need permission make constructive edits to articles. JDtalk 11:39, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Communism

Isn't there some argument that the Borg are a satire on ideas of Communism - they first appear during the Cold War Wikiman, 19:14 , 27 January 2007

They are nothing like communists. The creators have stated that they are about technology gone awry, a fear that people had in the 1980s with such events as robots replacing workers in different industries, Chernobyl, etc. --OuroborosCobra 20:26, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Seeing as they weren't introduced until after the fall of the Berlin Wall anyway, the argument is plainly specious. Chris Cunningham 09:47, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
The Borg is one collective being. In their collective state, they're one organism. The ships and drones are extensions of that organism. DBZ Bane 09:07, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Earlier Encounters With The Borg

The second paragraph of the history section... am I the only one who thinks this is totally wrong? From what I understood of Regeneration, the ship that was found was the wreckage of the Borg Sphere destroyed over Earth in Star Trek: First Contact. The First Contact page states this in the trivia section.

And as for the subspace thing... the Borg have transwarp portals. Note that Voyager was able to travel back to the alpha quadrant much quicker than they could actually send a subspace radio transmission.

mattbuck 20:20, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I reverted to an earlier version. It seems that User:CaptainDigness added the misinformation. Gdo01 20:21, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
User:CaptainDigness reverted it, I just reverted it back... goddamn him. mattbuck 18:58, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
User:CaptainDigness keeps on insisting the Borg are from the past but the production report clearly states that these are the Borg who survived from First Contact. Gdo01 19:10, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reply from User:CaptainDigness

This is Captain Digness speaking.

The reason I have kept on editing your work should be rather apparent. If you say these borg came from the future why is their technology limited i.e. They are weaker than a pre-Federation starship. What is more is that I personally spent hours researching this subject before I made such claims. Do the research; all the evidence supports my claims. Check for yourself.

Please read the policy on original research. We aren't here to apply our own research to articles. We're here to report on research that has already been done by reliable sources. Your claims may be correct, but you need to provide a source that agrees with them. --Onorem 18:23, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Alright I too agree. I will do research and bring it to you personally the results and I realize that I was right about the subspace factor and the Borg traveling pre-trans warp due to the fact that they would no doubt have used to evade the Enterprise rather than being destroyed. The fact that they did not suggests they did not have those capabilities at the time. In fact they went the other direction than where the subspace sorridor was located. If you look this up you will see that I am correct. However if you need proof I will bring it to you also by the end of this week. And I request of you to defend against my statement that if the Borg technology is more primitive than that of first contact how are they from first contact. Unless you can answer this with substantial proof I will continue my editing until someone or something puts an end to this.

Any edits you make that constitute Original Research or uncited claims will be removed. CovenantD 18:55, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

As will yours! CaptainDigness

You do see the production report link above. Here it is again. The official Star Trek site says these are the Borg from First Contact. Gdo01 05:49, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
This is captain DBZ Bane 09:11, 10 March 2007 (UTC) speaking.

The Borg only learn by assimulation, thats why species 8745 (or whatever that number is) did so much damage to them in star trek voyager in the episode title scorpion, this was all explained then. Maybe they couldn't assimulate anyone in the future and V'Ger brought them here. DBZ Bane 09:11, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Noooo.... V'Ger didn't happen for another 200 years. mattbuck 09:20, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
V'Ger had the ability to travel to different planes of existance, it can probably travel through time with easy. DBZ Bane 09:27, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other Species

Why is it that no other major power has been threatened by the borg? The only encounter that the Romulans seemed to have with the Borg is mentioned in The Neutral Zone and then, only outposts were destroyed. The Federation seems to be the only entity that is outright attacked by the borg. The same goes for the Dominion. The Dominion is such a huge territory, I find it hard to believe that the Borg have no interest in it. The technological level of the Dominion is not that much greater than the Federation either, if at all. Again, I think it is unlikely that the Borg would have no interest in the Dominion. Rajrajmarley 21:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

This isn't a forum. Only stuff about improving this article should be here. Gdo01 21:53, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
It makes for a better plot if the attacks happen to the federation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DBZ Bane (talk • contribs) 09:30, 10 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] HR Giger?

Is it just me, or does the interior of the Borg ships look an aweful lot like the works of HR Giger? I'm just curious if there is any basis in his works; either official or otherwise. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.191.17.168 (talk) 02:55, 4 March 2007 (UTC).

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