Talk:Bombing of Hamburg in World War II

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Germany Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles related to Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)

This is a controversial historical topic, which may be disputed. Please read the talk page and discuss substantial changes there before making them. Please also consider the particular importance of using proper citations when adding information to highly controversial articles. (This message should only be placed on talk pages.)

Thanks for the picture, but as it cannot be seen here that a whole city is burning - it could be any house anywhere - I think there might be better alternatives. Get-back-world-respect 12:22, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 War crime 2 Further reading? 3 SYSTEMATICAL ATTACK ON CIVILIANS 4 SYSTEMATICAL ATTACK ON CULTURAL SYMBOLS

[edit] War crime

As was already noted at the Dresden bombing talk page, there are thousands of pages on the internet claiming that area bombings killing hundreds of thousands of civilians in WWII were war crimes or crimes against humanity. 84.59.88.9 23:56, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

See Talk:Bombing of Dresden in World War II for more in this issue. --Philip Baird Shearer 14:41, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

OK, so Hamburg and Dresden were possibly bordering on War Crimes, but that's war. If the Nazis could have done this to allied cities: they would have without batting an eyelid. Why no mention of Warsaw, Rotterdam, London?. True, the German casualties were horrendous, but at least the allies didn't deliberately gas six million of them.160.84.253.241 11:58, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

NOTE ON THE COMMENT ABOVE: You are sick and perverse. You cannot justify killing people because others killed more. If the topic of war crimes is going to be debated here, then we should not draw comparisons, only evidence.

People classing the bombing of German cities as 'War Crimes' seem to be missing a fairly important point here. There was nothing stopping the Nazi Government from evacuating the cities - the British did this to some extent, sending their children out into the countryside and even shipping them-off to Canada. The RAF (and presumably, the USAAF) would have been quite content to bomb the now-empty cities, possibly with less loss of life to themselves.

The German population had been given plenty of warning about what was to come in the millions of leaflets that the RAF had dropped in the preceding years of the war and which - (paraphrased) - "did nothing but fulfil the raw material requirements for Germany's toilet-paper industry", and it was their misfortune that Hitler's was not a government that it was in their power to get rid-of.

The only circumstances which probably would have made the bombing a war crime, even by today's laws, is one where the Allies had effectively put the cities in a state of siege and were preventing the civilian population from escaping, i.e., one where the civilians were to all intents and purposes, prisoners.

The moral of this whole sorry story is simple - be very careful who you vote for - if you are lucky enough to still have a vote. Ian Dunster 12:24, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

There is much sense in the above. I believe that Hitler never once visited a heavily-bombed German city, and seemed almost oblivious to the fate and welfare of his people. (FALSE - It is a fact that Hitler visited many ruined cities) As an Englishman, I know that there is an unfortunate tendency here to think that we saw the Germans in their true light during the Nazi era. In fact the opposite is true...they were democrats before Hitler, and they were not forced into a peaceful democratic way of life after the war, but actively embraced this system as soon as the opportunity presented itself. Few Germans mourned Hitler after the war, and only a minority of cranks hold him in any regard now. Whether the terrible destruction of German cities contributed to the 'regime change' is open to debate, but (especially in the pre-Pearl Harbour period) Britain v. Nazi Germany was perceived in the UK as a battle to the death, so if any armchair historians like myself feel the need to self-flagellate ourselves with talk of past war crimes, we need to try to put ourselves in the position of people who believed that the enemy were not coming to fight us, but to exterminate us. Let us agree on one thing - WW2 was a great tragedy, which contained many sub-tragedies, such as the wholesale destruction of great cities. But the Germans themselves have moved on in great style, and it's time to shake hands over the matter and write it into the human race's 'Book of Lessons Hard Learned'.ChrisRed 20:51, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm... I'm still trying to find any evidence that Hitler visited bombed German cities, so I think that whoever inserted the 'FALSE' comment into the above must either have his own agenda, or be mixing him up with Mother Theresa, Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon or somebody. It was a specific criticism of Hitler that after the tide of the war had begun to swing against the Nazis, He was generally only to be seen either at rallies, on propoganda newsreels or heard over the radio. Even then his thoughts were often transmitted second-hand via Goebbels. Obviously he must have passed through places en route from Berlin to Berchtesgaden etc, but I can't find any pictures of this warm caring man dispensing happiness and comfort to the Germans. Especially at the end, he seemed more than happy for the entire nation to follow him into hell.ChrisRed 08:26, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

to chrisred (irealize now what red stands for):

check for the DEUTSCHE WOCHENSCHAU. its a collection of videos concerning the life in germany during the war. in many of them you can see hitler visiting the devastated cities. do some research. im not pro nazi but i dislike when people try to make a point valid by "theorizing". -the rallies stopped when the war begun (this is widely known for those who read a bit of european history). - the VERGELTUNGWAFFEN project was speed up after Hitler visited many of the burned-to-the-ground german cities. -none of your points are valid because you havent made any SERIOUS research on the subject. you cant find everything on the net. i bet you just searched for "hitler, ruins". (by the way google, and altavista ban usually sites containting photos of hitler, so the best source for photos are books)

dont get moral on us, take your stalin mask off and quit listening to radio guevara and you will find the truth someday-

Konstantin

Dear Konstantin,

Strange...It's amazing what you can deduce about me from three letters. 'Red' is just the first three letters of my surname. I am not greatly political, but would describe myself as a social democrat if pushed. I prefer to get my information from Shirer etc. than google.ChrisRed 09:56, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh...and....

On July 25, 1943 Goebbels wrote in his diary:

"..These letters keep asking why the Fuhrer does not visit the distressed air area, why Goering isn't to be seen anywhere, and especially why the Fuhrer does not for once talk to the German people to explain the present situation. I consider it very necessary that the Fuhrer do this...(ChrisRed)

Goebbels had an ongoing feud with Goering, so his statements are a bit trendy . there is a famous video showing Goering visiting a ruined city (probably Hamburg). he is being driven around by his chauffer on a mercedez benz kompressor. you can see him crying (yes, cocodrile tears) and people talking to him.. in the video you can also see the famous "UNSERE MAUERN RAUCHEN ABER UNSERE HERZEN NICHT" sign hanging from the cracked walls of a collapsed building.

Goebbels was "loved" by the german people because he was one of the few who visited most of ruined cities. Fºor security reasons, or whatever Hitler didnt visit as many cities as him. And Goering visited just a few (with not other intention than to save his own ass)

i remember you that history is about facts not about personal trendy opinions. so what do you want to prove? that he didnt give a shit for civilians? well thats already proved. (neither did any of your heroes, HARRIS, CHURCHILL, ROOSVELT) but i dont see any merit in trying to distort the truth just because you "think" that a man like hitler would not bother to visit ruined cities and to assist the suffering people.

By the way the heavy bombing of Germany started in 1944 (thtat is the indiscriminate bombing against civilians).

thats the problem with you people. you are too fanatic to an ideology. (i guess you would describe Stalin as a "sensitive well-intentioned freedom lover statesman)

read books. they will help you.

KONSTANTIN

Well, people like us (whatever that means) do read books, but it seems that we do not read the same books as you. It's a pity that William Shirer is dead - you could have written to him to tell him that 'The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich' is a load of rubbish. I know it has been 'dated' by new information since it was written, but after reading your comments above, I think I would prefer him as a source than any author that you have read :-) For example the poor people of Cologne (30 May 1942) and the Ruhr (Spring 1943) would probably like a word with you about your date for the start of large-scale bombing. ChrisRed 11:38, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Kiddo, As far as i know Köln, Hamburg, and the Ruhr district were technically industrial and economic targets. Thats what they were blasted. TO QUOTE MYSELF: "By the way the heavy bombing of Germany started in 1944 (that is the indiscriminate bombing against civilians). " Obviously the allies (Britan in this case) started to bomb german cities as early as 1939. but the systematic bombing of german cities with the purpose of terrorizing the population started in 1944. DO YOU GET IT BOY?. one thing is to bomb FACTORIES, OR OIL REFINERIES and another one is to bomb cities for the sake of TERROR. THATS CALLED TERROR BOMBING. ARE WE GETTING THE MESSAGE? THE TERROR BOMBING THEORY WAS DEVELOPED IN THE FINAL YEARS OF THE WAR. your source is only one book. that what makes your points invalid. one of the best books (although not the most complete) about the third reich is Allan Bullocks, "A STUDY IN TYRANNY". read it.

read book"s" kiddo (emphasis on "plural")

KONSTANTIN

Nah...I'm getting bored now. You really are totally obnoxious, aren't you. Anyway: Toodle-pip from jolly old blighty, and all that. (Unwatch) ChrisRed 14:36, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

• • The winner of the war will call it "strategic bombing" when they do it to the losers. When the losers were doing to the winners, it will be called "crimes against humanity". That's basically how it goes, so both of you are right and wrong. Look no further than what the US did to Japan with fire bombing. More people died in the Tokoyo firebombing using conventional weapons then from any Atomic bomb dropped later. The bombing of Hamburg and other European cities almost pale in comparison to what hundreds of B-29s and napalm did. But because the US was on the winning side, generals like Hap Arnold were never tried as war criminals for directing such a malicious bombing strategy.

There is no winner in war, only a means to the end of it. Its only long afterwards where the armchair generals will decide if the end justifed the means.146.145.129.63 20:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)Buggsbuny 24 July 2006

[edit] Further reading?

There should be something better than this "Official website of the film Asche-1945 (free to download) with a different point of view concerning the bombing of civilians.". Pukkie 09:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

For further reading, I would like to suggest Jörg Friedrich's book "The Fire: The bombing of Germany, 1940-1945" (Columbia University Press, New York, 2006). Having read the book, I find it to be a frank and well-documented description of the motivations behind and the results of the Royal Air Force Bomber Command's "morale bombing" campaign during the Second World War. MisterCat 09:08, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I should also like to suggest the following book, an account written by an eye-witness shortly after the bombings of Hamburg in 1943 and recently published in English:

• Nossack, Hans Erich (2004). The End: Hamburg 1943. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. ISBN 0-226-59556-0. 

MisterCat 09:46, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] SYSTEMATICAL ATTACK ON CIVILIANS

This britsh area bombing directive nr. 42 lead to a systimatical attacking of the geman civil populatiuon. the british attacks were concentrated on workingclass quarters and midivael citycenters. The goal was pure terror against civilians. The amount of civilian loses were enormous. In Hamburg (55.000 dead, in Dresden betwenn 25.000 and 35.000 dead, in Pforzheim 20.277 dead ,31,4 % of all inhabitants, in Darmstadt 12.500 dead, 66.000 homeless out of former 110.000 inhabitants, Kassel 10.000 dead, Heilbronn 6500 dead, Würzburg 8500 dead etc. Churcill, Harris, Lindmann and many other bristish politicians and military personell was not sentenced for his warcrimes after the war.--Kastorius 16:27, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SYSTEMATICAL ATTACK ON CULTURAL SYMBOLS

Apparently, not only civilians or strategic target were the object of these bombing raids. From a 2001 article by Miles Glendenning, buildings and topographical surveys manager with the National Monuments Record of Scotland:

"This paper is not concerned with the issue of socalled terror bombing of civilians, or with air attacks in support of army campaigns, such as the allied bombing of Caen or the German bombing of Rotterdam. We are solely concerned here with deliberate 'cultural bombing', and the way in which that interacted with the concern for Heimatschutz and the citymonument. The first deliberate mass bombing of a historic city was the Royal Air Force attack which incinerated over 80 per cent of the timberbuilt Hanseatic old town of Lubeck on Palm Sunday, 28 March 1942. This attack by over 200 heavy bombers was ordered by the South African commander of Bomber Command, Air Marshal Arthur Harris, as an experiment, to test whether bombing timberframed buildings could start an inferno large enough to be used as an easy aiming point for later waves of bombers: "I wanted my crews to be well blooded, as they say in fox hunting, to have a taste of success for a change".

'Bomber' Harris's motive thus merely seems to have been one of philistine utilitarianism; but the emotional hold of the Heimatschutz philosophy in Germany led to public outrage at the destruction of Lubeck, and calls for revenge attacks targeted precisely against the English architectural heritage. On 14 April, Hitler issued an order for the deliberate bombing of historic cities, the socalled Baedeker raids named after the guidebooks used to select the targets. The first raids hit Exeter, Bath and York, where the Guildhall was gutted: the German radio announced that "Exeter was a jewel; we have destroyed it".7

That, however, was something of an exaggeration. The fact that the German air force only had light tactical bombers meant that these retaliations could only be on a pinprick scale, compared with what was inexorably coming in the opposite direction. For example, as the attackers headed for Bath, a massive formation of RAF bombers crossed their path heading for another Hanseatic city, Rostock, where threequarters of the medieval Old Town was flattened. At a meeting three days later, Hitler raged against the destruction of Rostock, and Goebbels recorded that "he shares my opinion absolutely that cultural centres, health resorts and civilian centres must be attacked now. There is no other way of bringing the English to their senses. They belong to a class of human beings with whom you can only talk after you have first knocked out their teeth". But - quite apart from the fact that 'Bomber' Harris was not himself an Englishman most of the historic teeth being knocked out in this surreal competition continued to be German ones. In May 1942, in Operation Millennium, over 1,000 bombers rained incendiaries on Cologne, predictably using the Cathedral and the Old Town as their aiming point, and destroyed over 13,000 houses. In July 1943, in 'Operation Gomorrah' - the name itself says a lot - the week-long fire raid on Hamburg, over one-third of all buildings in the city were destroyed, including most of the historic centre and its churches, and the university library with its 800,000 volumes."

I'll try to find the link to this article - if folks are interested -and post it here. Kanitz 22:41, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

This article seems to rely on an assumption that the aim of the RAF's bombing was to destroy cultural symbols. As this was not the case, the basis of this article seems unsound.IxK85 13:09, 2 April 2007 (UTC).