Talk:Bombardier beetle

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Of course "intelligent design" is a euphemism for God, since it says there exists (somewhere, somehow) a designer who creates life - e.g., God. But you are correct, in that my statement comes across as POV-ish, not wikipedia-ian, so I'm not going to try putting it back in. -- DavidWBrooks 18:51, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Not necessarily... could be "superintelligent race of Rigelians". Graft 19:02, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I was vaguely thinking of the Raelians - but if you try, I won't revert. The link to irreducible complexity is the important bit :) Martin

The story of Darwin having tried to collect that beatle sounds unlikely at best. Are there any sources on this one? 84.139.20.7 19:20, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

I can find one reference saying it is a reputed story, with no direct source. I will water it down slightly. - DavidWBrooks 23:36, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Source: Adrian Desmond and James Moore, Darwin (London: Michael Joseph, the Penguin Group, 1991). ISBN 0-7181-3430-3. see Charles Darwin's education#Beetle collecting. ..dave souza, talk 08:02, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Plagiarism? 2 Cat 3 Location? 4 location is a good question 5 Intelligent design section

[edit] Plagiarism?

Is it a problem that the entire second paragraph of this article is taken from here: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/bombardier.html (Number 2 in the sources)?

[edit] Cat

At 06:35, 9 March 2006, 137.132.3.7 added "Note: It was originally under the category of [Category:catalysts], but as it had no bearing on catalysts, I removed it". ..dave souza, talk 08:02, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Location?

Where are these little guys usually found?

[edit] location is a good question

I'm wondering if these bombardier beetles are found anywhere near Mt. Ararat... because if Noah did collect two of every kind, he must've collected many kinds of beetles, but the "bombing" beetle might be specific to an area that he couldn't get to. I would love to shoot holes in the Creationists THEORY. I love to find out if there are Bombardiers in Turkey, or more specifically, Mt Ararat. - Deon

I have added the fact that they are found throughout much of the world's temperate grasslands and woodlands; thanks for that suggestion. I don't know about Mt. Ararat, but if you're looking for an anti-Noah argument, there are plenty of other, better species - non-swimming animals in Australia or South America, to begin with. - DavidWBrooks 19:37, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Mind you, just because they're there now doesn't mean they always were ^_~ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.122.208.51 (talk) 17:37, 15 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Intelligent design section

I removed this:

"In one demonstration, documented in the book The Blind Watchmaker, biologist Richard Dawkins mixed together hydroquinone and hydrogen peroxide in an artificial environment. No reaction occurred—a catalyst was required. Dawkins' point was that as the beetle's defensive mechanism evolved, the intermediate stages would not explode - the chemicals would not react without a catalyst."

For the following reasons

1. The importance of this to an article about bombardier beetles doesn't seem that great.

2. This doesn't represent evidence in support of intelligent design since intermediate stages occurred under a different set of evolutionary pressures than currently exist.

3. I don't believe (please correct me on this if I'm wrong) that The Blind Watchmaker was not peer-reviewed, and therefore should not constitute 'scientific' evidence. I think its inclusion here makes it seem like accepted science.

4. Without a lot more context (that would seem better placed in an article about intelligent design or evolution), this paragraph just seems to be an afterthought.

Any objections? Rational User 05:52, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd suggest restoring it, or something similar.

1. Creationists (let's call them) present the Bombardier beetle as an example of something natural selection could not have come up with. People will be coming to this article to find out more about it, so it's a good place for this discussion.
2. Naturalistic explanations that would discredit the ID argument should definitely be added to the section. The Dawkins quote is a start, but I find it unclear.
3. The article is not upholding The Blind Watchmaker as an authoritative biology text. It is used here to present the ID argument.
4. Presenting every ID argument in any ID or evolution article would make that article unmanageably long. Much more context can be given in this article.

I do think that section could be made clearer, but I'm not a biology expert. / edgarde 07:03, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Both Edgarde and myself seemed to think that this was a paragraph indicating support for the ID explanation from Dawkins [from Edgarde's comment: It is used here to present the ID argument]. However, I would be shocked and amazed if this is the case: Just check out the Dawkins page or read the book (I realized I had this book on my bookshelf this morning and read the appropriate section). Dawkins is an outspoken opponent of ID. I don't think the paragraph should be included if it is so poorly written that 2 people can take it to mean something that the book's writer probably did not intend.

Unless there are serious objections I'm going to re-delete that paragraph and re-write the whole ID section this evening. I actually am a biology expert (Ph.D. in ecology) and I'd be happy to make the section sound better (I didn't have the time last night). 192.35.96.170 15:28, 9 January 2007 (UTC) (this was me Rational User 16:36, 9 January 2007 (UTC))

The wording of the section has been hacked around at various times to give credence to the creationist claims, and the Dawkins demonstration related to a different claim to the one in the children's book. I've reworded it a little and cited TalkOrigins who cite several sources. Any more technical sources or improved wording will be welcome. .. Ta, .. dave souza, talk 18:13, 9 January 2007 (UTC)