Talk:Bogan

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This article was nominated for deletion on September 1, 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

Contents 1 query 2 June 15 2006 3 June 11 2006 4 June 7 2006 5 Eddie McGuire 6 Hutt 7 Poof 8 Mullets 9 Moccasins 10 Etymology 11 NPOV 12 Extensive Re-Write 13 Suggestion to merge Bogan with Westie 13.1 Removal of the merge tag 14 Real Phenomenon Objectively Described 15 Boganism 16 Broadening of the term? 17 Cashed Up Bogan 18 Repeated large scale alteration/destruction of this article 19 Additional arbitrary, unexplained, large scale destruction of article 20 Help needed to verify this article 21 Disaster area 22 Removed text 23 List 24 Bogan.com.au 25 Poida 26 Major edit needed 27 The Irishness 28 Bold deletion 29 Can someone double check the Macquarie Dictionary for me? 30 Cashed Up Bogans 31 Query 2 Cultural References 32 Suggested merge 33 Bogans and musical preferences 34 May be useful

[edit] query

from the article: Further, the stereotype assumes a correlation between cultural practices of particular working-class people (i.e. style of dress, accent, and musical tastes), and anti-social behaviour. It should thus be considered a slur.

my query: "DOES use of term bogan imply anti-social behaviour necessarily? Doesn't bogan just mean uncultured? I didn't know that a bogan also had to be a thug?" Format 22:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] June 15 2006

Ive just removed this quote which was just newly added. It contradicted the statment above it which said that bogan was a statment based on behavior and not class.

A person who uses the insult may draw a distinction between bogans, and more 'respectable' working class people. However, bogans are usually perceived to be working class. A person from a comfortable background who is violent, anti-social and unintelligent may well be derided and insulted, but not ncessarily be called a bogan. They may be told they are acting like a bogan, but not that they actually are one.

--DennyCrane Talk 09:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] June 11 2006

I have removed the comments

"Although the looks of general bogans can be catalogued (many of these overlap with other sub-cultures in Austalia), it is the attitudes of bogans that truly makes them a catagory seperate from Westies, which they share many common attributes with."

As the definition of Westies in the Wiki is "predominantly Irish American organized crime gang hailing from the Hell's Kitchen area of the West Side of Manhattan in New York City.". I presume that the editor who made this change lives in an area where Westies refers to people from the "western suburbs", and even if you use that definition, the comment is meaningless to someone who doesnt live in australia or doesnt live in a town where bogans come from the "west"--DennyCrane Talk 08:07, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] June 7 2006

I'm really getting tired of seeing articles that are contributed to by multiple sources being eviscerated by a single self-righteous individual. Reverted to last revision by Ivan Kricancic. Asa01, before you arbitrarily delete large sections of an article that has been edited by multiple people, at least have the decency to propose such changes here first. I anyway consider such deletion an act of vandalism.

Petrus4 03:28, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

• Move supported. Allthough calling it Vanalism is a bit harsh, Don't forget the WP:BOLD guideline which is so encouraged. But I do agree that it should have been reverted without some further explanation on the talk page. --DennyCrane Talk 05:53, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

OK I'm proposing my changes here: I propose reverting back to my last edit. I'm not really sure what discussions here prior to editing would have done? Would you have agreed to my changed had I proposed them first? Previously the page was a load of unverified chat. The few references were highly questionable. The Age article on the CUB seems like a humour piece, based on quotes from a marketing guy, so I don't really know what that article proves. I know of no wikipedia policy that states that information created by multi editors is subject to special rules and higher levels of respect: no matter how many authors something has had: if it unverified, it can be deleted at any time. Asa01 11:53, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eddie McGuire

Eddie McGuire recently became the CEO of channel nine, I don't see how a CEO could ever be mistaken for a bogan.

As I've said to other people on the subject of Eddie McGuire: A bogan in a suit is still a bogan. ;)

Petrus4 23:00, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hutt

In New Zealand, Bogans are also strongly associated with the Hutt Valley, especially Upper Hutt and Wainuiomata. Favourite bogan bands are AC/DC, Pink Floyd and Metallica.

[edit] Poof

Where on earth did this come from?

Bogan is an derogatory Australian slang term for somebody who is perceived as being an homosexual "poofter", typically of Asian ancestry and living in deprived urban areas. The term originated in Talbingo, and equivalent terms are:

• Faggot in America (referring to Western Suburbs), and also in Gay (in the west of London, England)
• Poof in Scotland.
• (sometimes interchangeable with) Joel in Canberra.

Am I the only one who thinks this is way off the mark? Has Strine changed that much in the four years I've been away? Shermozle 16:49, Jan 17, 2005 (UTC)

I think it was a rather clever case of vandalism. Thanks for picking it up and reverting it. --kudz75 23:37, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mullets

A Bogan is someone who drives a hotted up ute and has a mullet. They are usually non-homosexual though the women they have are usually quite resemblant of a man.--Biohazard 06:11, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Moccasins

Moccassins? Sure it shouldn't be thongs? Or is that a sourthern states thing (where it might actually get cold).--ZayZayEM 06:19, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Sounds right to me - bevans would wear thongs, but bogans would wear uggboots. :) thefamouseccles 23:11, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think Bevan has gone out of usage. I grew up in Darwin and Queensland. I've don't think anyone under 50 has ever used the term.--ZayZayEM 02:26, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thongs are worn in summer and ug boots (usually black) in winter. Bonds blue singlet (aka Truckie's Singlet, Wife Beater) is worn everyday.

the original, archetypal Bogan of Broadmeadows (or surrounding areas of northern Melbourne) in the late 70's definately wore the more flat moccassins all year round, they were often referred to as "moccies". More effeminate Bogan chicks (often referred to as 'Boge chicks') sometimes used to wear lace up ones to the knees, however definately not in summer. this look still seen widely in the late 80's, however the bogan look is not entirely uniform anymore as there have been several different bogan 'looks' and stereotypes/(mis)uses since and certain apparel consistently worn, differing only slightly depending upon conditions and possibly the era. eastern victorian town Moe, is sometimes derogatorily referred to as Moccassins On Everyone.

the general style could more often than not be seen as low maintenance Havencheese 07:25, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

Does anyone know anything about the etymology of the word. Is it of Gaelic origin?

I added some info about real place with "Bogan" in their name. Not necessarily helpful with etymology but at least it provides clues to the origin of the term. Andrew Kay 00:32, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I believe the word bogan was originally a term of disdain for a particular stereotype in the UK at one time, although I can't remember where I saw the reference. To me it is highly likely that the term possibly migrated here, and was used here in connection with people who displayed similar characteristics.

Petrus4 11:22, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

does this article count as npov? includeing the 'non-australian bogans' section? --Meizawotmeiz 16:41, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't know, as I was reading it, "NPOV" kept coming up in my mind, especially the bits on who is a "bogan". Enochlau 00:28, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Extensive Re-Write

I have substantially re-written this page.

I believe that the page as it was violated the Neutral Point of View rule.

My basic problem with the page as it was, is that 'bogan' is a slur and a stereotype - the page as it was assumed that it was a real phenomenon objectively described.

I have assumed that this was what prompted the 'cleanup' tag to be added, and so have removed this tag.

--Apeloverage 03:19, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion to merge Bogan with Westie

I object to the suggestion that this article be merged with the Westie article. The person who made that suggestion is obviously from the eastern suburbs or north shore and stereotypes all residents of western Sydney as identical. (I might add that I have met bogans resident in the eastern suburbs)

I also object to 'Westie' being merged with 'bogan' - in Melbourne the term is rarely interchangeable, and is far more applicable to Sydney. Bogan is a far more ubiquitous description.

The real questions perhaps are:

1. do "Bogan" and "Westie" denote largely the same phenomon that occurs in many different places.
2. whether the big city word (Westie) for it should be allowed to assume the provincial word for it (bogan).

My instinct on the first is that while there are probably differences in what a bogan is assumed to do in Auckland as opposed to Invercargill (and I assume Australia) these are probably superficial and shifting. I'd be comfortable with the two being on the same page but resistant to any confusing of the two with boy/girl racer as there are clear qualitative and generational differences from that term.

To resolve/avoid the second question I'd suggest that a third term be used and Bogan and Westie both redirect/become part of it - Australasian class slurs is a bit pejorative, but essentially accurately indicates why the two terms exist irrespective of the exact detail of what is meant in different places.

Generally the article is a bit weak on analysing the phenomonon of calling people bogans - ie why social groups develop stereotypes about other groups.

--Tweakie 03:26, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure if the above is two comments (with one beginning at "the real questions perhaps are...", or one.

Anyway, I'm the one who made the suggestion.

The person who objected seems to be saying that people in the western suburbs of Sydney use 'westie' to just mean 'someone from the western suburbs' (which is obviously where the term comes from).

My reason for suggesting merging the two was my experience of people, not so much in the eastern suburbs or north shore but the inner city, which is basically the same thing, who use both 'westie' and 'bogan' as a slur for working class people.

I'd be happy with having an article something like "Classist Terms in Australia" - maybe 'bogan' could re-direct to it, and 'westie' could just be a short article to the effect that "refers to someone from the western suburbs of Sydney, or less often Melbourne, and is also used as a derogatory term for working class people."

--Apeloverage 13:27, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, my comment began with "The real question" - I struggled briefly with a way to delineate from the two unsigned comments and settled on bold! I agree with the general direction of your suggestion, except that it would need to be "Classist Terms in Australasia" as both bogan and westie are in common New Zealand parlance. Westie is used to tag people from West Auckland in particular.

I think that the two objections above miss the point that what an encyclopaedia page on these terms is is not an exhaustive map of the subtleties of the usage of the terms, rather it should explain that the terms are mildly derogative, tend to denote working class and/or petrol head pastimes, and are Australasian. The differences between them can be adequately dealt with in one article. These are terms, not realities after all.

If it were in fact the case that in Australian usage westie is a more innocent general term for people from the west of a city, then I agree that a standalone article could be useful. In New Zealand English it is much more of a loaded term and properly belongs with bogan (notwithstanding any subtle differences).

--Tweakie 07:25, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

If there is a re-write, I suggest that it be clearly indicated that not all people from the western suburbs conform to the bogan stereotype, and also that bogans are not confined to the western suburbs but can also be found all across Sydney (and presumely other cities). They can also be found to varying degree across all social groups.

---

I'm from the north shore/northern beaches area and disagree westie people should be merged with bogan as there are a hell of a lot of bogans on the northern beaches (try going north to avalon).

My contention is that when snobby people think of westies they automatically think bogan - that's probably what inspired the merge suggestion. I challenge the notion that because someone has tattoes, speaks with a westie accent, cleans garbage bins for a living and lives in a fibro shack they are automatically a bogan. Bogan is a mindset, a mindset that typifies a stereotype. For all you know he is putting food on the table for his kids and keeping a household in order. To me that's not a bogan. To me bogans are the idiots who started Cronulla fighting - that IS bogan mentality.

--someonestolecc

---

Bogan is in wide use in Perth, but Westie is unknown, as 'The Western Suburbs' are the more affluent areas. The Word Map from the ABC doesn't list Westie beyond the south-east of Australia - merging Bogan into Westie would be misleading. A more accurate merge would be to merge Westie into Bogan.kju 11:30, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I hear 'Bogan' being used far more often than 'Westie' (There's even a CD released in Australia recently called: Bogan! Simply the best pub rock). If theres to be a merge, it should be Westie into Bogan as kju said.--Count Chocula 09:09, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

---

Westie?

There is absolutely no reason why Bogan and Westie should be merged at all. As mentioned...whilst the similaries between the stereotype of what a bogan represents and what the stereotype of the westie does are similar and deserve a small link, the westie has as much to do with it's opposite the Eastie as purely a Sydneycentric item (the term unused outside of sydney/auckland) representing where someone originates, with their perceived stereotypical lifestyle. Similarly the Bevan is used widely in Queensland, but little elsewhere if anywhere else. The term 'bogan' and bogan's themselves is an Australia/new Zealand wide representation or template and by far most widely used term. Havencheese 07:00, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I disagree that westie people should be merged with bogan. --WikiCats 10:14, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of the merge tag

I strongly oppose the proposed merger with Westies (people). As I've mentoined on the Aussie English Talk page the terms bogan and westie are by no means synonymous. Westies are residents of the western suburbs. That westies are bogans is a stereotype. Should Wikipedia reinforce this stereotype? Making Westie redirect to Bogan would be equivalent to saying that westies are bogans. They are not ... well some of them may be but ... this is not the definition of the term Westie. Making the redirect go the other way would be no less offensive. Wikipedia should not be name calling.

I'd find it offensive were the articles merged. Even the merge tags could be seen as offensive. Most of the above coments seem to be against the merge. I propose that the merge tag be promptly removed. Jimp 20 March 2006

The result of the debate was do not merge. --WikiCats 11:56, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Real Phenomenon Objectively Described

I suspect that I was the primary individual describing bogans in the previous version of the article in the manner which Apeloverage describes above. It may be a stereotype, but bogans most definitely do exist. I live on the main highway of Sunbury, and I have a block of units full of them right next door. I can hear them walking up and down the footpath outside my house, death growling obscenities on any Friday or Saturday night. I was also nearly killed by a pair of them several years ago.

Petrus4 13:21, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Not to put too fine a point on it, but that's pretty much the definition of breaching NPOV :) I hope you won't be too offended by the removal of some of the Sunbury-specific references. Andrew Kay 00:37, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes and not to mention Original Research too. I have a Croation neighbour, but I don't ascribe his habits to Croations in general and incorporate their description into the Croatian article. I went to a private school at which everyone outside a 5km radius of the school zone was called a "bogan". I don't think the definition of the stereotype there would be welcome in this article either. Rintrah 07:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Boganism

This subject can be developed further, with a more appropriate NPOV, if it is permitted to extend to the social psychology term "boganism." While the root may still harbor some pejorative meanings, the phenomenon has been documented with increasing frequency over the past few years. The following is excerpted from the article referenced below:

"Bogan? It is an Austrailian colloquialism--street slang used by teenagers. It dates from the late 1980s, has been used in print at least once, and was commonleard on an Australian television comedy. We heard it often while living in Perth, Western Australia, a few years ago. It is not a term of endearment. As a colloquialism, there is no definitive meaning for bogan. As we heard it, it refers to teenage boys who are considered losers, slackers, and deadbeats--goin' nowhere and doin' nothin'. In Melbourne, the word has signified nerds and geeks. Generally, bogan does not denote criminal or delinquent behavior; bogans are not gang bangers, juvenile delinquents, or teenage criminals. So what are they? First, bogan is a popular culture neologism. We have given it an academic twist because it is a word that immediate comes to mind when one sees two behaviors that increasingly define our culture tuday: unaware and irresponsible. This is not what Australian youth mean by the term, but when we asked them about it, these two features always surfaced.

"Boganism describes more than the behavior of Australian teens. Consider bogan behavior to be that of folks whose everyday activity expresses a lack of concern for what is going on around them or how their behavior affects others in their midst, whether on or off the job, on or off the freeway, in their housing complexes, or on the steet. They do not see the connections between what they are engaged in and its effect on their community, the environment, or others around the world. Additionally, they are unaware of the consequences of their activities for future sustainability. Corporate CEOs are surely guilty of this, as are politicians, neighbors, and coworkers. We thought of title this article 'The ABCs of Boganism.' Why? Because there is surely adolescent boganism; there is [Presidential] boganism...there is corporate boganism, like Enron...WorldCom, and so on.

"Bogans are everywhere, and their behavior pattern is painfully observable. The question is not whether boganism exists, but whether it is a result of broader social forces that we can identify and analyze...The bottom line is this: Boganism, the social phenomenon of being both unaware and irresponsible, is the result of a particular type of human abandonment."

Also see "Polyani Thesis," if available. Edits to above done to remove President's name and corporations without convictions in public record.

---

Brown, B., & Brown D. (2005). Beyond Boganism. The Journal of Popular Culture, 38(4), 632-649.

PalePhoenix 23:29, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Broadening of the term?

It seems to me that there has been a considerable broadening of the meaning of the term bogan over the years. When I was growing up in the 80s, in my circles it had a very specific meaning: the style of dress (flannies, tight jeans and moccasins), the hair style (mullet) and the musical preferences (pub rock or metal). Nowadays it seems to be used to refer to basically anyone who comes from a blue collar family and does not aspire to become white collar or attempt to effect an air of intellectualism. The article seems to refer more to the former (more disparaging and less useful) meaning than the latter. --Russell E 08:12, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cashed Up Bogan

The Cashed Up Bogan section seems highly dodgy to me. Wikipedia should not have original research and stuff should be verified. In this case it seems that it is the one external reference that is engaging in the original research: The Age chatted to a single marketing guy who went on about the concept of cub. Whether the cub really is a notable, new, or specific phenomenon is not coroborated by that article. The article just reprints one person's opinion. Furthermore there is no coroboration that any other marketing people believe in the concept, or if anyone else uses the term at all. So wikipedia is reproducing someone else's original research, but presenting that original research as fact. It now even has its own page! Asa01 21:07, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

There is a feeling in the community that the true essence of the bogan has deteriorated. There is the '80's bogan look and characteristics that are indelable and romantic. There has since then been a substantial evolution of the bogan. There are undoubtedly some 1980's true blue bogans still strutting the streets, but there is a new generation of nouveau bogans that are often termed pseudo bogans and there are difficulties in the classification. Do these new lifestyles truly deserve the term of bogan? The answer is surely yes, there are striking similarities between these new forms and the original bogans. The differences are due to the different environments we live in today and the impact bogan lifestyle has had on our psyche as a whole. We can now see roaming our streets various forms of creature that still have their ancestral bogan roots in the same way the human coccyx is the remants of a tail. From this evlutionary perspective and current observatoin, there should be added several sub species to the bogan line, namely;

Cro-bogan (originating from the pure '80's bogan stock, but harder, meaner and more phyically and mentally scarred) Metrobogan [mogan] (the softer, understanding bogan who is in touch with current issues but is still a bogan at heart/slightly scary) Cashed up bogan (as previously mentioned, this is a real phenomenon - it derives from the realisation that bogan isn't forced upon you - it is a choice and a priviledge) Agribogan (formed from the mixing of outer suburbs with agricultural areas where elements of each culture mix

The evolution continues in all areas of the globe (globogan?/Balibogan?) and the wonderful journey into one of the world's most beautiful species continyous....

[edit] Repeated large scale alteration/destruction of this article

It would seem that I am going to have to be more vigilant in ensuring the preservation of this article. Certain individuals have again taken it upon themselves to needlessly scrap large portions of it, although I will agree that the Elements section had deteriorated in quality rather drastically. I tend to suspect that there have been attempts to contribute to the article by bogans themselves. ;-)

Petrus4 11:06, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Additional arbitrary, unexplained, large scale destruction of article

Mgekelly, every single time that you, Asa01, or anyone else similarly self-righteous decides to almost entirely scrap this page (especially considering that you did not bother to give any explanation for the act) I am going to revert it back. Petrus4 14:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

• I'm simply trying to enforce basic Wikipedia policies such as WP:OR and WP:VERIFY. I was simply being bold in applying WP policy by not leaving notes here, and I think my edit summaries indicated my reasoning. Of course, if you wish to discuss the issue, then that is what must be done, but calling me 'self-righteous' and threatening to revert war with me are not constructive. mgekelly 14:34, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
• Explanations of the concerns about verifiability and original research were clearly given back in July 2006, on this very page, and this page has directly pointed to our verifiability policy from 2006-07-27. Your inclusion of this content in the article must be supported by sources. Otherwise it will be removed, and editors will actively keep it removed. Our Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research policies are fundamental. The article now includes indications of many of the places where sources are required. Instead of reverting, please work to find and to cite sources in the places indicated, starting right now. Unsourced material will be removed without mercy. Citing sources is your best defence for content. Wikipedia is not a platform for collecting individual editors' random unsourced and unsupported ramblings on pejorative stereotypes. It is an encyclopaedia, whose articles must be verifiable and free of original research. For the level of sourcing that you should be aiming for at minimum, see chav. Uncle G 01:26, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

OK...I will save a local copy of the article in case it is deleted. The material comes (in my case anyway) from direct observation of my offline neighbours. I suppose that could be considered anecdotal, but then again, isn't eyewitness testimony usually accepted by courts?

Petrus4 13:42, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not courtroom testimony, my friend. Don't defend putting original research in Wikipedia – go and put it on a website somewhere else, or better yet publish it in a reputable source, and then you can cite your work in this article. mgekelly 14:44, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps. But, as far as I know, we are not prosecuting bogans on criminal charges, and we are describing a social group based on a stereotype, not individuals. There are many differences between encyclopedia standards and courtroom practices, including that encyclopedia editors do not cite precedents. If you want to show Poida et al exists, I suggest you document their behaviour, and post your research on another website. Maybe you could quote their police records to prove their deviancy. Rintrah 07:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Help needed to verify this article

There is justified criticism of this article as subjective and unverifiable both here and on this article's AfD, however I would prefer it was not deleted, and have been trying to come up with some reliable references and sources to keep it alive - not an easy task, as pejorative stereotypes tend to be informally referenced and applied.

OK, here's what I've got so far: SMH: Perhaps there's a little bogan in everyone, Herald Sun: Holly Valance, the bogan's hero, The Age: The order of Australia, The Age: Cashed-up bogans, Bogansville: meet the new in-crowd, The Age: 'Bogan' village hates school name, these are newspaper articles, and granted, several of them are written by or interview Melissa Campbell from the University of Melbourne who wrote her MA thesis on "Bogan: exploring images of Australian cultural marginalisation" in 2004. I tried today to obtain Ms Campbell's thesis from the Uni Melb library to check the bibliography, but am finding it difficult to get hold of.

The term is also mentioned in the Macquarie Dictionary and the Australian Oxford Dictionary. Yes, I realise this reinforces the suggestion to keep the term on Wiktionary only, but suggest the cultural references, some might put the article above the dicdef category. It doesn't help that the etymology and origin of the word is pretty much unknown.

Please post here if you find any further references and myself or others will try and work it into the article to improve it. Thanks, Canley 11:08, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I read this [1] but I believe its claims are highly questionable. Michelle and Ferrett bogans? Well if we agree to list them as bogans can we also say that bogan girls wear black lippy, tight connies all the time, have short platinum blond hair that never shows any dark regrowth, and that bogan men are totally dominated by their women to the point of never ever speaking?! Because they were the key features of Michelle and Ferrett. Kylie Mole I believe is a rather low class wannabe Valley Girl in training. She used the term bogan herself; it does not mean she is one. Article also suggests that "It's the only authentically Australian subculture," (!) Not sure if I agree, while bogan is really just an Aust word for something that exists in other countries but is called Chav or Ned. Meanwhile she refers to panel vans: weren't they more connected to surfie culture? Anyway we sure can refer to the article; but maybe the WP article on bogan should specify "one researcher/academic has suggested that" before recounting her claims. I believe her claims are pretty bold and out there (like, her suggestion there are no bogans in Box Hill). Asa01 12:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Mmm, I disagree with your suggestion that what you see as the notable characteristics of Michelle and Ferret must therefore apply to all bogans. No offence, but it seems like a logical fallacy to me. However, I'm happy to omit M&F if you feel this does not apply, unless I can find a statement from Magda Szubanski herself on the matter!

Yeah, I'm keen not to rely solely or predominantly on Campbell as a source, as you're right, her articles are pretty much subjective opinions on her part, and I'll certainly reference them as such. No bogans in Box Hill, yeah right! It looks like the Australian National Dictionary Centre has done the most useful and verifiable work on this: I just found a page here which cites several literary, media and government references to, and definitions of bogans, as well as the regional equivalents. --Canley 12:18, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

'I disagree with your suggestion that what you see as the notable characteristics of Michelle and Ferret must therefore apply to all bogans' I was joking. I was trying to emphasise that their key characteristics are nothing like any bogans I have ever heard of. Apart from Michelle being somewhat thuggish, they don't have any specifically bogan characteristics at all, do they? Therefore it is a bit misleading to list them. Magda might be a funny comedienne who thinks she knows what a bogan might be and how one might be played, but unless she's a published expert in sociology we can't base the bogan article on any of her comments either. She might think she is playing a bogan, who is to say she can accurately judge what a "bogan" is in the first place? Asa01 21:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Good point. A big problem here, and the reason the article is gets so out of hand is because the term is so widely used and broadly applied that it's quite difficult to define. As my edits last night indicate, the Kylie Mole usage was to mean "dag", not in the sense that most of the article is referring to, and you can't quantify that if someone has 5 or more ticks on the "bogan checklist", then they're a bogan - the term is almost always subjective.

One of the main sections I was going to add to the article is about "bogan pride" - people, often expatriate Australians, claiming "bogan" as a badge of pride and Australian-ness - see the Holly Valance link in the Herald Sun and the bogan.com.au website. Now, I don't know about you, but it seems to me that Holly Valance has fewer "bogan qualities" than Michelle & Ferret, despite her self-identification as one. --Canley 01:03, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disaster area

This article is a disaster area that is just getting worse.

Despite all the recent AfD discussions about what should and shouldn't be included, and that we should avoid having a list-type article where people just jump in with their favourite description of a crass person stereotype, people continues to do just that. Meanwhile no one seems to be improving the article or adding any references. I mean look at the most recent changes! As if the name Mercedes is a non-standard name!! Amazing. I have myself attempted to improve this article and remove all the unreferenced stuff, but have always had all my changes reverted. I was once even called a vandal for deleting things. Asa01 21:52, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I've done some work to improve most of the sections of this article, and cited numerous references - I'll wait to see if they're reverted or deleted by the editors/anon IPs who removed your edits. You're right, some of this had to go: the essay on the evolution of the bogan, and the unreferenced outing of celebrity bogans. That list of stereotypes is an absolute mess and I'm steeling myself to deal with that part shortly! I'm thinking it needs to be reformatted and drastically shortened to stop it being a OR?POV magnet. Just wanted to let you know that someone's working to improve and reference the article! --Canley 12:14, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Your additions are fine. It is the long, ever expanding unverified list that is the problem, not the opening descriptions (which remained after my drastic cutting awhile back). My deletions (and those of other people) that would be quickly reverted, were deletions of the "locations" section, and the lists of examples. Note that during this page's AfD, the page Darrin Syndrome came up for its second AfD having survived one a few weeks before. Because of the first AfD the listcruft type list was successfully kept off the article. However the result was a pointless page with so little content that when nominated the second time the AfD succeeded. I guess I am saying that some decent references to the main section are the safest bet to keep this from becoming a dictionary entry when the lists are trimmed. Asa01 20:38, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I suggest all the specific traits be deleted unless sources can be found to verify them. The general traits which sound correct to those familiar with the word but have no sources should remain, but someone should find sources for them. I think half of the characteristics list should be excised; and if necessary, moved out of the article until someone provides sources. Rintrah 12:53, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed text

It [the supposed link between working class culture and anti-social behaviour] would thus be considered a slur if it did not correlate to observable data with such striking accuracy. This sentence stated in scientific language is obviously written for its author's amusement. I don't sympathise with "bogans", but these fatty sentences waste my time. Rintrah 13:59, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List

Cannot the list following The stereotype may be summarized as follows: be shortened to exclude many of the specific claims without appropriate verifiability so readers are not weary by the time they reach the end? Rintrah 14:04, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm working on it at the moment, might take a while. Not much of a "summary" at the moment, is it? --Canley 12:08, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes. It should be amended to The stereotype might be exhaustively, speculatively catalogued, without verification, as follows. If it is a summary, it should be short. Most people think bogans are unsophisticated, so the stereotypical traits should be short anyway, and simple to describe. I think many anonymous editors from Broadmeadows and Epping in Melbourne, and the Western suburbs in Sydney decided to attribute the traits of their neighbours to bogans, and add them to the list.

Scientific papers on bogans are probably difficult to find, but there might be newspaper articles which can be used as sources. Good luck on the arduous task! Rintrah 15:35, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bogan.com.au

I found that a couple of the citations were linked to Bogan.com.au. Does this really count as a legitimate source? Rintrah 12:12, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

No! I clicked on the "reference" to the claim that bogans are white, and found a site where people basically post phone and digi pics of the general public in dodgy fashions, or pics of their friends drunk. No a site where anyone may post digi pics does not count as a reference the way it is being used here! Format 21:45, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Because there seems to be a dearth of literature on bogans, maybe Melissa Campbell's thesis on bogans, if it can be found, and whatever sources she consulted, should be cited as references for the stereotype. It is one of the few actual academic papers I have heard of on bogans, so should be used to make this article credible. Rintrah 08:39, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually I decided this article can only be improved to a satisfactory quality if it receives the attention of an expert. For there are few useful references that can be sought in an internet search, and academic-quality information is not likely to be found in library books or encyclopediae. Maybe we should just let bogans describe themselves. Then, at least, all we need to rely on is honesty. As slang, "bogan" is a catch-all term for lower-class or unfashionable people; no specific stereotype is evoked. Anyone who uses it or hears it often will probably falsely receive the impression it can easily be reduced. Rintrah 11:48, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

No we cannot just let "bogans describe themselves" because of a lack of references, because that is not how wikipedia works. If the term bogan seems to be a catch-all word, but its specifics have never been formally described, then the wikipedia article can say only that. WP can't describe any specific attributes without an external reference that states that that attribute is a characteristic of a bogan, because doing so is original research. At one point this article was just like that: it gave a definition of the term and described its origins but avoided unreferenced specifics, but then all the long, long, example list was added (and then added to), and that section of the article is original research. Asa01 19:22, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Hehe. I don't think you got my little joke. :)

Unfortunately my opinion of it being a catch-all word is difficult to verify and is in itself original research. I agree, the list is original research. Rintrah 05:00, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Poida

Poida is the archetypal bogan. If other bogans were as bogan as he, they would be eating twistie sandwiches. Rintrah 03:27, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Major edit needed

Well the unreferenced tags have been here for ages. Why aren't the protectors of this article finding any references. For some reason it is only this article that people insist of filling with unreferenced examples. In comparison Westies (people) seems free of them - editors do not seem to insist on having all the examples in there and that article seems pretty good. I think I shall need to start drastically trimming out the unreferenced sections of this article again - SOON! Asa01 19:40, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

How about now? I will support you if need be. Original researchers got too excited and thought their opinions worthy of an encyclopedia, and thought referencing unnecessary. Rintrah 05:03, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

A large part of the problem, as mentioned by others above, is the "Elements of the stereotype" section, which is pure bait to anyone wanting to insult a friend/enemy, a locality, or simply to give their impression of what a "bogan" is. That said, I don't know if deleting the whole section is the best idea, but even leaving a well-written, well-referenced section "describing" a bogan is still going to have that temptation. I certainly support drastically trimming the section as you suggest - I've got some references as well - but I haven't had time to work on this article since my last major effort. Any help much appreciated! --Canley 14:59, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Can you provide your references, so either I or someone else can reduce the list to essential elements. If the section is thoroughly referenced, there will be less temptation for original research. Rintrah 15:06, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• Here's a recent one from The Bulletin: Return of the bogan... I thought this one was a winner, it contains a description of the stereotype - however, reading it more carefully, I suspect that they've actually used the Wikipedia article as a reference as the structure and information is very similar! If so, this might not be usable, what do you think?
• Ugg boot reference from The Age: The uggy side of life, also one about leggings.
• Some clothes items here: Alison Gwilt, Director, Fashion and Textile Design at the University of Technology Sydney descibes "the bogan look" for Readers Digest.

--Canley 15:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

The Bulletin seems to take most of its information from this article, though there are quotes from a sociologist that are not included here. The language is quite laid back. The second one should be used, although it is not qualify as a proper source for an academic paper — which is unimportant at this stage. The thrid source is better. Still, I doubt there are sources trustworthy enough to elevate this article to "Very Good" standard. Well done for finding references to help expel the ghost of original research. Rintrah 09:24, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. I added all the references, except the Bulletin one, but not much of the list was liberated from original research. At least those references are a start. Hopefully, others will follow the example. Rintrah 04:42, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Not a reliable source, but the most comprehesive defintion I have found on the web: [2]. Rintrah 08:43, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Isn't the list just a vague caricature of the Australian working class? Based on the current list, it is difficult to distinguish the stereotype of blue-collar Australians from 'bogans'. I think some of the list items can still be trimmed, because they are not worth finding sources for. If someone wants to help, it would beneficial if someone searched the term 'bogan' in academic papers. I could not be bothered doing this myself. Any university student or staff member could do this. I don't think much more can be found in newspaper articles. Rintrah 06:54, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Irishness

"Although Melissa Campbell, who wrote her thesis on bogans in 2004, wrote in The Age: "It is no coincidence that Bogan is an Irish surname. Irishness is associated with bogans' 19th-century ancestors: English and American hooligans, and Australian larrikins." [3], there is no known evidence the meaning of the adjective is derived from the characteristics of any person or people named Bogan." That can be true but Bogans do have the attitudes of stereo-typical Irish people (eg. Like Irish people alot of bogans are Heavy drinkers, have short tempers and often disobey the law)

Those similarities do not imply the bogan stereotype derives from the Irish one. Your example fits many fringe stereotypes. Rintrah 11:35, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bold deletion

DELETED:

This stereotype is difficult (if not impossible) to define in a manner complying entirely with Wikipedia's policy regarding citation of sources, since although both the stereotypes and adherents of it are known to exist, the definition of the stereotype is largely held/transmitted in an oral rather than formally printed way. This could also be seen as an example of the potential problems inherent in Wikipedia's strong (relatively recently developed) Empiricist/Scientistic bias.

I disagree. All WP needs is a reputable external source to corroborate any particular attribute listed as being typical of bogans. The long list of examples that I suspect this paragraph refers to, was hardly necessary. The article on bogan does still exist and the definition is there, so what's the problem? Asa01 21:53, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Hardly anything on this page is there without the uncited tag; people reading the article who are aware from their own observation that bogans exist may wonder why that is. I considered it important to attempt to offer some explanation for that. I'm going to put the passage back, and part of the reason why is because I actually consider you yourself to be a member of the army of pedants I was referring to in it. Before you consider me calling you that ad hominem, I invite you to look the definition of the word up; I've included the link. There is a rather glorious irony associated with the word having its' own article on Wikipedia, since I know of no other word in the English language which more eloquently describes a large number of the people present here, in my own mind. I am, above all, deeply tired of the archetypical denizens of this site attempting to falsely make out that their customary attitude is more elevated or desirable than it genuinely is.

Petrus4 21:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Um. Well, I can vouch for myself not being a bogan, though I did drink a VB 6 months ago — I think. The others you are complaining of are probably not bogans, for their intellectual interest is greater than what is allowed by the bogan stereotype. Looking up the dictionary defintion doesn't help; it is already described in the article and is not longer than a sentence. Per criteria of neutrality, the bogan article is not a place to express one's hatred of bogans. Such is more suited to letters to the editor in most newspapers. The uncited tag is useful for drawing people's attention to unsourced information. If you want to fix it, find sources for it. Rintrah 15:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Can someone double check the Macquarie Dictionary for me?

I was leafing through a fairly recent large edition of the Macquarie Dictionary in a discount store recently (the old MSD shop on Swanston Street, Melbourne) and absent-mindedly looked up "bogan", fully expecting the origin to be "unknown" as I had read in previous editions. I was quite surprised to read in this edition that the Macquarie Dictionary now seems to claim the origin of the word "bogan" is from the Swahili word for "enclosure"! As this seems so strange and unlikely, can someone with access to the latest edition or the online version of the Macquarie check that I wasn't seeing things or looking at the wrong word? If this is verified, we can add it to the article. Any Swahili experts or Macquarie dictionary editors, please also chime in... what is the Swahili word for "enclosure" and how on earth would it end up being applied to bogans? --Canley 00:44, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

My Third Edition has 'origin unknown' but your discovery is interesting. Rintrah 01:01, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I subscribed to the online Macquarie, and the origin is unknown. Have done some research, and we actually have an article on the Swahili word for enclosure: Boma (enclosure). Only very slightly similar, but I cannot see how "bogan" and "boma" could possibly be related unless I was (a) seeing things - unlikely as I'm sure I re-read it several times to make sure, or (b) it was an error in the "Bo" section of the Macquarie Dictionary. --Canley 05:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

The error possibility sounds most plausible. If you are interested in finding out the etymology, perhaps you could contact the organisation that writes the dictionary to find out what they know. Rintrah 15:26, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cashed Up Bogans

The media has cited tennis player Lleyton Hewitt and his actress wife, Bec Cartwright as examples. They have also been described as such on The Glass House (TV series) a few times. Also, a pop culture refernce on Neighbours (episode 5108 - 29th November 2006), the Timmins family became Cashed Up Bogans, bought new cars with the number plates CUB2 and CUB3. They said they wanted CUB1 but it was already taken by Lleyton and Bec. J Bar 23:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok. You can add it if you like. I don't think anyone is going to make the counterargument that they are cultured. Though a footnote a media reference would be useful to readers who have no prior idea of what a bogan is. Rintrah 23:46, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Neighbours is fiction! The whole Cashed Up Bogan thing seems to be something championed by MX (newspaper) journalists and the script writers on teen soaps designed to appeal to UK audiences. I'm inclined to see cashed up bogan as altogether a media invention personally. It is not like you hear much of it in real life: it seems to have been mentioned by a marketing guy in the press after which it became the fodder of comedians and columnists. But media mentions provide references so it ends up in WP. Asa01 05:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

You are right. The MX loves marketing inventions. And outside marketing and wikipedia, I haven't heard of a cashed up bogan. Rintrah 07:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes and just because it was mentioned in Neighbours proves nothing: the scriptwriter could easily have taken the idea from MX, or even from this wikipedia page itself. Asa01 06:07, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Query 2 Cultural References

This article includes the following in the bogan article, but neither entry provides any reference that substantiates the item as being specifically about bogans. Does "The Fosters Car Park Boogie" use the term bogan in its lyrics? Does that Warne article actually state that Warne's is a bogan persona?

• Melbourne band TISM released a song written from the point of view of a bogan beating up a mod, "The Fosters Car Park Boogie," on their 1988 album Great Truckin' Songs of the Renaissance.
• "Cricketer Shane Warne receives regular ribbings from the Australian media for his bogan persona. His struggles with weight loss and cigarettes, the unsophisticated dietary habits, are all fodder for commentators who recoil at his uncouth habits. But Warney is the ultimate Aussie bloke: all brawn and few brains when it comes to controlling his appetites, plus a blinding addiction to blondes who are typically clones of his attractive wife." (Emma-Kate Symons, "Spinning out of control", The Weekend Australian (2-3 July 2005), p 19.

Asa01 19:04, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I'll look into it, though I'm a little sleepy today. If I don't find anything, I'll remove those entries. Good work on cleaning up the article. I am even starting to imagine this article as a GA candidate. Rintrah 10:13, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Re: the TISM song: the lyrics go "I'm a bogan, baby, always was / I'm only happy when I punch a mod", so yes, the song does specifically cite bogans. --Canley 10:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

That assertion sounds plausible to me. :) I shall perhaps check the second entry tomorrow. Rintrah 13:29, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I just read your comment — properly this time instead of scanning it while half-asleep. The article does actually imply Warne's is a bogan person. It does not say he receives "ribbings... for his perceived bogan persona", but says for "his bogan person". Therefore, the writer assumes Warne's is in fact a "bogan persona". I think we can leave the extract there. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rintrah (talk • contribs) 15:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC).

Cool thanks. Yes now you mention it, that line I think is in the spoken part of the song. The hotel building that contained the real Foster's Nightspot (Southern Aurora Hotel, Foster Street, Dandenong) was pulled down years ago as part of a cleanup of that part of town! Asa01 19:03, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested merge

User:Xyzzyplugh has suggested merging this article with White trash as they "mean the same thing". I thought I'd better get a discussion started as to whether that's a good idea or not. It's not. I strongly disagree, the terms do not mean the same thing and have considerable culturally significiant differences in usage, application and etymology. --Canley 14:18, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Bogan does not merely refer to an economic underclass, but has specific Australian cultural connotations; an American "white trash" or hessian or British chav is typically not a bogan, despite having some things in common with them. Moreover, the state of being "white trash" (even in a deregionalised, de-Americanised sense) is not the essence of being a bogan; one could be the Australian equivalent of such without being identifiable as a bogan, by not embodying the characteristics of bogan-ness. Acb 17:04, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bogans and musical preferences

The fact that the Bogan article does not mention styles of music connected with the concept of boganness is a serious omission. A fondness for hard rock and heavy metal music is pretty central to the whole notion of bogan, and some bands, like AC/DC, are strongly connected with the bogan stereotype. Acb 16:57, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

There are plenty of common and widely-accepted aspects of the bogan stereotype omitted from this article, the reason being that some months ago several editors including myself removed a great deal of information which did not have a source or reference in a reliable publication. Everyone knows about bogans and Acca Dacca and Chisel and "Khe Sahn", but unless we're strict about pruning uncited information, the article may slide into the messy original research magnet it was last year, with every man and his blue heeler adding their two cents about what a bogan was, where they live, cars, music, clothes and so on. If you can find a newspaper or book reference to bogans and hard rock, then by all means add it to the article! --Canley 08:12, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] May be useful

This article appeared today (March 30, 2007) Government gives grant for bogan study. New Zealande researcher Dave Snell said "The stereotype of a bogan is tight black jeans, a Metallica T-shirt, a mullet or a shaved head and a love of beer and cars." The unnamed article author of the news article says "In New Zealand as in Australia, bogan is an insulting slang, term for an unsophisticated lower-class yob - if the study is published in the United states it may have to include the translation 'trailer trash'". -- Barrylb 04:22, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

The researcher might have used the word "bogan", but that's just one person. What he describes sounds a lot more like a "headbanger". Format 07:27, 30 March 2007 (UTC)