Talk:Blue Star Wicca

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I have changed "septagram" to "septegram" because the word comes from the Latin "septem." Thus, I believe the correct spelling is indeed "septegram." Septegram 06:38, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 2nd and 3rd initiation vs elevation?

Initiation in various groups, usually only happens once. You are either an initiate, or not. I am thinking the should be changed to elevation, but i'm not sure that I have any verifiable sources for it. But, an analogous situation is that of Freemasonry, where on is Initiated as an Apprentice, Passed to Fellowcraft, and Raised a Master Mason.--Vidkun 22:07, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Tidied that up. It took a couple of tries, as I was initially going for esthetics over accuracy. That'll teach me...

Septegram 18:56, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ordination?

One enters the clergy at (first degree) initiation, but ordination is conveyed thru a distinct ritual, generally after third degree. Jeneralist 02:51, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

And here is where we are going to need citation, because in the general encyclopedia reading world, become clergy or a priest is considered ordination. Additionally, given the issues of being a religion of the priesthood (ie, no laity exists) is clergy the proper term to use?--Vidkun 12:25, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

We are all "priestesses" and "priests" in that there's no requirement for us to have someone to mediate between us and the Gods. Everyone is able to have direct communion with the Divine. However, to be an Initiate means that one has taken certain specific vows, made certain specific commitments, and (theoretically, at least) reached a certain level of skill and understanding. In that sense, those who have not been Initiated are "laity." Really, the terminology is not suitable for Wicca in general and B* in particular.

Unfortunately, we use the term "Ordination" in the sense that one who has been through the rite of Ordination is able to pass on the Tradition in its entirety. What we probably need to do here is define the term "Ordination" as it applies in this context. You're right, Vidkun, we should probably have a citation, but I don't know of one online or in any book.

Septegram 14:52, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Again, why the terms just don't work here: Dedicants and Neophytes aren't laity, nor are they Initiates . . . but they sometimes can be officiants, both on an ad hoc basis, and in a pro tempore basis, in that they may serve (for a specific incident) as Hm or Sm, and may serve in either of those roles for a specific period of time. Additionally, in "outer court" workings where non-Initiates may be present, there may be occasional situations where they serve as MAIN officiants as part of their training. I agree, that for this article, we need to define the terms ordination/clergy, and possibly try to find something citeable on a generic BTW source discussing the concept of a religion of the priesthood without laity.--Vidkun 15:49, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

"I agree, that for this article, we need to define the terms ordination/clergy, and possibly try to find something citeable on a generic BTW source discussing the concept of a religion of the priesthood without laity"

Heh. Good luck. Maybe I should just write something and let you cite it {grin}

Septegram 15:55, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

All of which is why I re-phrased the text for first degree to remove the word. Maybe we could say 1st is ordination to clergy, and there is a distinct ritual, called ordination, confirming that the recipient is able to pass on the Tradition in its entirety. Sea Star's web page actually spells this out pretty well: http://www.sea-star.org/aboutbluestar.htm Jeneralist 16:53, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] recent edit and BLP issues

There are a number of non locked pages out there, on the history of the tradition, that list names in full. I'm not saying that justifies putting it in here, just saying it IS out there. H2G2, and witchvox are two sites listing it in full.--Vidkun 19:00, 1 March 2007 (UTC)