Talk:Blue Jay Way

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Article Grading: The following comments were left by the quality and importance raters: (edit · refresh) The article could use a bunch more information, but it is a song. —Gordon P. Hemsley→✉ 16:21, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Sitar?

I removed "...and features a sitar" from the article. If the song does indeed include a sitar, it is not easily discernible, much less featured. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 06:07, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

There is no sitar in this song. Its actually a credit to the song writer that he can make a psychadelic and eastern feel with out actually using any Indian instruments.--64.239.176.50 22:30, 23 May 2006 (UTC)Joseph Brizzolara

[edit] Modality

Maybe it should be noted that the song is written in the mode of C Lydian #9 (the 6th mode of a Harmonic Minor scale). Not only is modal music very unusual for rock/pop, but this mode is one of the strangest choices one could make.

[edit] Re: "actual street", etc., etc.

Hello, Zakko: First, I stand corrected on the "ins" vs. "ons" - just figured it was typos or something, and had forgotten that it's there in the song.

Second, I'm fine with splitting off the paragraph; and if you think "exceedingly" was excessive, no problem -- I've already changed it to "very".

But why on earth did you feel compelled to come back after you were all done and delete the word "actual"? The fact that it's a REAL street in Los Angeles -- and not just a product of George's imagination -- is an essential fact. I assure you there are still lots of people out there who don't know that. (Honestly, I don't know why you made a point of deleting it -- I put the word there for a reason.)

As to all the other unnecessary changes you made: If you had actually managed to improve on what I wrote, that would be one thing. But the only plausible explanation I can come up with for all of the other things you changed -- none of which was called for -- is that you were bent out of shape because I had (mistakenly) corrected what I thought were typos, and you just felt like messing with what I had written... In the future, please do everybody a favor, and leave my writing alone -- unless there's a real and serious need to alter a word or a phrase. (It's not likely, because I don't post "first drafts", but I won't rule out the possibility.) Just be sure that it's constructive -- and not just because you happen to feel like it for some unknown reason. Cgingold 08:22, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

What is the difference between a street and an "actual street"? The word "actual" in an encyclopedic setting significantly risks redundancy; I can appreciate your wider intention, but if you feel it is necessary to stress the point further (even though the text gives considerable geographical information clarifying that the street exists) it would probably be best to re-word your text in an explanatory way avoiding the word "actual".

The text: "It is reached only by following a very complicated route" is clearly wrong. There are ways of reaching Blue Jay Way without taking a "very complicated route" - for example, by helicopter, hence the reasoning for removing the word "only" and adding "road" before "route" to set the appropriate context. The "very complicated route" description is POV anyway. For example, someone who has lived in the Blue Jay Way area for several years or an experienced Hollywood Hills' taxi driver may not find the route complicated in the least; and "route" implies a starting point (for the route), which you do not mention. I felt it was important to at least revise the judgement from "exceedingly complicated" to "complicated", but it may be best to express this differently in an objective way (I know that the map view shows the street layout as relatively tortuous) rather than as a subjective judgement of complexity. You, yourself, have now shown that this is essentially a subjective judgement by choosing to tone down "exceedingly" to "very"; this was after my prompting of no adjective, but if the point was objective (or a properly cited authoritative subjective assessment), there would be no discussion as to whether no adjective, "exceedingly" or "very" is appropriate. Again I appreciate your intentions, so please feel free to rewrite your text if you don't want others to do so; and please understand that others have the right to edit accordingly.

Why did you remove the date links in the text: "The song was recorded on September 6, 1967, with overdubs on September 7 and October 6"? Please note the following text from the Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Dates containing a month and a day: "If a date includes both a month and a day, then the date should almost always be linked to allow readers’ date preferences to work, displaying the reader’s chosen format. The day and the month should be linked together, and the year should be linked separately if present." So please revert the links you removed for September 6, 1967 and the three dates in the 'External links' section as they are now not displayed using the reader's chosen format.

"The name of the song derives from an actual street in the Hollywood Hills overlooking Sunset Boulevard, which affords panoramic views of Hollywood and Los Angeles" ... As written, the meaning of that text is ambiguous. It could mean that either the "street" (i.e. Blue Jay Way) or Sunset Boulevard affords panoramic views; hence the reason for re-wording for clarification.

"The name of the song derives from an actual street" ... In linguistics, "derives" means "to generate (one structure) from another or from a set of others". If the song were called, for example, "Sitting Here in Blue Jay Way" the phrase "derives from" would be more appropriate, involving a specific generational step (additional wording) away from the original street name; but in this case (i.e. the "Blue Jay Way" article) the name of the song is absolutely *identical* to the name of the street. Would you be happy if the text was re-worded to include the phrase "gave its name to" (or similar wording)? On a separate point, "due to" is encyclopedic wording rather than "thanks to", which is an idiom when used in this context.

According to the Wikipedia link, Hollywood Hills is a part of the City of Los Angeles; and Hollywood is also designated as being within the City of Los Angeles. So the current text ("panoramic views of Hollywood and Los Angeles") needs to be revised because: (a) Hollywood is within Los Angeles, and (b) the street itself is within Los Angeles. Would you be happy with views of "Hollywood and central Los Angeles" or "Hollywood and downtown Los Angeles" in the text, or can you suggest alternative wording that you feel would be appropriate and correct?

To summarise, I think the intention of your 16:23, 4 November 2006 edit was beneficial (i.e. setting the scene for the opening lines of the song), but I hope you will understand that I have acted in good faith in re-working part of the text, and inviting you to revise. I don't see any need for, or benefit from, the tone you have expressed, and I would appreciate an apology, please. - Zakko 14:10, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello, again. Okay -- now that you've articulated your concerns at such length (I am both impressed, and, well... appalled, by the amount of time & effort you've lavished on this -- do you realize that you wrote some 900 words, in total?), you've persuaded me that your edits actually were made in good faith. If only you had taken the time to explain some of this in the first place, I would not have found your alterations so objectionable -- which was the reason my tone was less than friendly. (If you care to take a look at any of the other discussions I've had, with other editors, you will see that I am not in the habit of engaging in rude or hostile exchanges -- quite the opposite. Also, out of respect for the other people who have worked on a particular article, I *always* make a point of giving as complete a rundown of my edits as I can fit into the edit summary. I wish more people would do that.) In any event, since you raised the subject, I would be more than happy to exchange mutual apologies.

I read your comments closely, and felt that you made some valid points, which I took account of when I rewrote the paragraph: a strategically placed comma after the word "street" took care of one issue, and the insertion of the word "high" took care of another. I think the word "rather" (replacing "very") is sufficiently flexible in terms of what it conveys to resolve your concerns on that point.

As to the word "road" -- given that streets are generally accessed via other streets (not by helicopter, for pete's sake -- that's entirely too fanciful), adding "road" would simply be redundant.

And lastly, regarding my use of the word "actual" -- The reason for this is very simple: While it is undoubtedly true that many people are now (4 decades later) aware that Blue Jay Way is a real street in Los Angeles (and don't need to be reminded of that fact), it's also the case that a great many other people -- probably the majority of readers -- will come to this article NOT knowing that Blue Jay Way is, indeed, an actual street -- and not merely an imaginary creation of George Harrison's imagination. So it serves a very specific purpose. In a sense, it's a short-hand way of saying to those readers -- in a single word -- something along the lines of, "you may have assumed that Blue Jay Way was merely an imaginary place, but, amazingly enough -- it's REAL." In sum, I'm just not going to budge on this one. (FYI: I grew up in Los Angeles and had no idea that it was a real street until 1969/70, two years after first hearing the song. And yes, I've been there. :)

Cgingold 14:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Cgingold. Thank you for your response. I'll reply in full to your comments later (possibly in a few days' time as I'm rather busy now), but one aspect you didn't mention in your response is the point regarding the Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Dates containing a month and a day: "If a date includes both a month and a day, then the date should almost always be linked to allow readers’ date preferences to work, displaying the reader’s chosen format." (I appreciate that you may not have been aware of this when you removed some date links from the article, but it is a very useful facility for an international encyclopedia.) Do you have any comments on this, please, with regard to reinstating the links that you removed? - Zakko 12:15, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello, again -- I've also been tied up, and finally found the time to take a look at your reply. I was completely focused on the content-related discussion, and the date-link issue slipped my mind entirely. You are quite right: I had no idea those date-links are called for in the MoS. Matter of fact, I've often wondered why people made a point of linking so many dates that are, after all, rather trivial in the larger scheme of things. If you've ever looked at those Date Pages, they generally don't add much if any useful info which relates to the articles that are linked to them -- so I've regarded the date-links as simply unneeded visual clutter, by and large. In any event, I see now that they actually do serve an important function -- so I guess I will be adding them in myself, now, when I see that they're missing. :)

Cgingold 11:38, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of "date-links" -- those "Year X in music" page-links are really great for these music-related articles, much better than using a standard year-link. I wish more editors knew about them. Cgingold 11:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Cgingold. Thank you for the modified date links. (I've set the indent for this message to be the same as it is for my previous message; otherwise the messages tend to become squeezed over on the right-hand side after a long exchange of messages.)

A point specifically with respect to the 7 November modifications: the term "Los Angeles Basin" is a proper noun, so it needs to be written as "Los Angeles Basin" rather than "Los Angeles basin". See the Los Angeles Basin article and Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Directions_and_regions in this regard.

I agree that the "Year X in music" links are often very useful in music-related articles.

I'm still quite busy, so I will reply in full later. At this stage I'll remove the www.thebeatlesongs.com link as this has been a dead link for a considerable time; I believe that website has now led to a commercial venture whereas it had been a freely available website. - Zakko 19:44, 12 November 2006 (UTC)