Talk:Blood Meridian, or the Evening Redness in the West

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Article Grading: The following comments were left by the quality and importance raters: (edit) I have always assumed that the Judge does murder the kid at the end of the novel. This is consistent with McCarthy's earlier and later work, especially No Country for Old Men, in which the antagonist Chigurh kills the protagonist, Moss, as well as his wife. The Judge and Chigurh are so similar they may as well be the same person. I also can't imagine what else would elicit the reaction of the men who visit the outhouse. Also, I don't necessarily agree with the Judge's pedophilia as evidence that the kid is not murdered (although the Judge most likely has killed the girl who performed with the bear, because she has gone missing). At this point in the story, the kid is over 40 years old. He is no longer a kid.
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Why is this still a stub?

I don't know if this is nit-picking, but I'm concerned about the line that says the Kid is "brutally murdered" by the judge. Actually, it's never explicitly stated that he's killed. All we know is that the judge is waiting for him in the latrine, and that later some bar patrons are horrified by something they see. Sure, it's probably murder, but for the sake of pure objectivity could we change this line to something less specific...came to a bad end, or something like that?

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Shouldn't this redirect to "Blood Meridian, Or the Evening Redness in the West"?

I think that the standard naming practice in the case of a novel with two names is to use the primary name as the name of the article. See Doctor Fischer of Geneva, the full title of which is Doctor Fischer of Geneva or the Bomb Party. | Klaw Talk 04:56, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

No real need for discussion, just go ahead and merge.Plowboylifestyle 21:24, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

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Contents 1 The Kid was murdered? 1.1 Murdered? 1.2 The Kid was murdered? 1.3 The Murder 1.4 Another One on the Murder 1.5 It's Obvious 2 Gnosticism ? 3 Black John Jackson - stated to be an escaped slave? 4 Accuracy corrections made

[edit] The Kid was murdered?

[edit] Murdered?

Actually, due to some earlier references to the judge's possible homosexuality (the naked dead boy in the fort, the saving-then-killing-and-scalping of the indian boy, the naked fool in the judge's room) and the fact that the judge is naked when the kid enters the latrine, along with the reaction of the men outside the latrine, I thought that there was somthing far different from murder going on at the end of that novel.

Um source? Naked != sex. LilDice 20:24, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Kid was murdered?

I agree with the other comments....I just reread the ending. Both times I've read it I did not get the impression that the judge kills the Kid, though I suppose that is consistant with the text. [not signed]

[edit] The Murder

I finished the novel last night and thought it was obvious that the judge murdered the kid at the end. Most horribly, as Bloom noted. The kid enters the jakes, goes in and the judge, naked, rises behind him puts his giant arms around him, pulling him close to his "terrible flesh." Then the judge locks the door. Later the two men are horrified at the scene. Who knows what the judge did to him, but it didn't end well for the kid. I think the judge was naked becuase he just raped and murdered the missing girl. Perhaps he violated the kid as well, but I don't think so right now. Certainly with the judge, anything is possible. He killed him though, as the judge is the one true dancer. Bears that dance, bears that don't.

Yea I agree with you, the people who read rape into it can if they want, but regardldess the kid got what was coming to him. LilDice 01:08, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Another One on the Murder

Just want to follow-up with this discussion to say that I'm a bit surprised by the statement that the Kid was "brutally murdered" by the judge too -- I'd remembered it being much more ambiguous then that. [not signed]

[edit] It's Obvious

It's perfectly fair to say that the kid was murdered by the judge. Whether he was also buggered by the judge is a less clear. But it doesn't matter. It's enough that he obviously could have been. Those who would insist on being more cautious about saying whether the kid was killed by the judge are the same who would hold out for the possibility that Hemmingway's "Hills Like White Elephants" might be about something other than abortion. Additionally, you've got heavy-weight, professional judgement about the matter with Bloom. This is not something to toil over. --Docblueson 10:20, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree completely; and not only does Bloom believe the Kid to be dead but as does the majority of critical thought on the novel. In fact, I honestly can't recall a single statement theorizing the kid to have survived the ending. The only debate is to whether he was raped prior to his murder by the Judge. Qjuad 16:00, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

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[edit] Gnosticism ?

Could more information be provided regarding the parallels to gnostic beliefs ? I saw many allusions and references to all forms of Christian mythology. Why limit it to gnosticism ?

Vatic Reverie 16:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree. The gnostic reading is based on a single article by someone who is not a Gnostic expert. In addition, the article is fairly short and the connections seem tenuous or trivial at times. The gnostic reading is valid, are there does seem to be some connections, but they are not overwhelming and it is far from a "gnostic" novel. Meanwhile, the Christian symbolism, images, and myth seem to be throughout the entire novel (the ruined churches for example). I think this section should be removed and combined with comments on other religious readings.

[edit] Black John Jackson - stated to be an escaped slave?

I've looked through the text, and while it is possible or even likely that the sullen John Jackson character was an 'escaped slave', there is no actual reference or even hint of this that I can find. If no-one else can point something out, then I'll remove this reference.

References or links would be good for the statement 'Scholars have written pages about single paragraphs in the novel'.

Lastly, as a matter of interest only, it is notable that New York Times critic Caryn James, who reviewed 'Blood Meridian' on its publication in 1985, clearly didn't understand the book, and her review could be seen as contributing to it's initial muted reception: [1] 'Centrepull 08:44, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

The "Scholars have written pages about single paragraphs in the novel" comment seems trivial. It is a common practice among literary scholars to write pages on a single paragraph.

[edit] Accuracy corrections made

The kid should be noted as a formidable and vicious fighter after his encounter with the bartender (important given the later activities of the Glanton crew). White's crew were irregulars. The kid and Sproule were not the only survivors of White's filibustering expedition. He meets three others at Chihuahua, and the Mexican guide Candelario mysteriously disappeared before the slaughter. Centrepull 10:04, 31 December 2006 (UTC)