Talk:Blind Willie Johnson

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[edit] Blind Willie Johnson--Blues or Gospel?

Johnson was not a blues musician by any meaningful definition of the term. I'm changing the first sentence to reflect this. --RobHutten 15:47, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

  • What exactly do you mean by "meaningful definition of the term"? If you are going by a musical definition of the blues, then you know that many of Blind Willie's are based around a 1-4-5 chord progression in 12 or 16 bars, and that the songs feature "soulful lyrics...originating from the era of slavery." Or if argue a non-musical definition: "a feeling or spell of dismally low spirits; a state of depression," then remember that Johnson was blinded as a child by his abusive step-mother, made an impoverished living as a street performer (in both Chicago and New Orleans, of all places!), was turned away from a whites-only hospital because he was black, then turned away from a blacks-only hospital because he was blind, and with nowhere else to go, he lived in the burned out ruins of his shack--where he froze to death. You seem omitting him from the blues genre simply because his songs were based on Scripture. While he wasn't singing about Dynaflows or big-legged women, Blind Willie was just about as "blues" as one can get. I haven't reverted back to the term "gospel blues" just yet, regarding the articles opening paragraph, although I believe this to be the most accurate way to describe him. A compromise, perhaps? "...his music is a combination of blues and gospel..." Or maybe the article could elaborate on the idea that Blind Willie transcends genres. Maybe a vote is in order? --buck 21:24, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

My edit was a reaction to the almost universal categorization of Black American music as blues. I understand the complexities surrounding the definition of the term "blues", but I see no value in broadening it to include, say, all self-accompanied sacred African-American music.

I guess I can accept the compromise "combination of blues and gospel". But what in Johnson's music isn't encompassed by the term "gospel"? --RobHutten 23:30, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

  • First let me apologize for my failure to proofread my last rant--sorry, that was atrocious!
Ah. I understand your point better now. However, what in his music isn't equally encompassed by "blues"? In that light, I'd still argue that Blind Willie was predominantly a blues musician not because he was black (although, admittedly, I believe that has a minor part in defining his music, as he was a black "vocal-with-guitar-accompaniment" musician during the great depression), but by the nature of the performances in these old recordings. Looking beyond the gospel lyrics, the guy had among the most virsatile and aggressive bottleneck styles on record. The delivery of vocals--the booming growls and shouts of his "bass falsetto"--with such ferociousness (and pure Son House). Compare him to Gary Davis for instance--would you call Davis a blues singer or a gospel singer? Can you adequately call him one and not the other? Or Mississippi John Hurt, who sang as many secular songs as he did gospel songs? (And check out Willie's complete recordings--there's one or two secular songs thrown in there, or at least ones that aren't overtly religious.)
Furthermore, this type of crossover is seen widely these days. Bands like P.O.D. and Creed are recognized as mainstream hard-rock bands but are also considered modern gospel. Labelling them gospel alone would be a bit misleading. I think the same applies to Willie--he's more than strictly blues because he incorporates gospel; likewise, he's more than strictly gospel because he incorporates blues. --buck 03:35, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

As to what is in BWJ's music that isn't encompassed by the term "blues"? For one, a strong prevalence of sacred themes; for two, a repetoire of set songs, rather than assemblies of floating verses; for three, most of his songs use verse/chorus structures instead of the AAB form which practically defines the blues genre.

I don't equate "bluesy" with "blues", not when it comes to classification. Of course there are bluesy elements in most African-American gospel music; this is (or, at least, was in Johnson's day) due to common antecedants between the two genres, not a direct influence of one to the other. And if we're to define as blues any music created by a tortured individual, or that delivered in a ferocious or passionate manner, let's toss Beethoven, the Sex Pistols and most flamenco music into the mix.

Hence my original "meaningful definition" comment.

Look at the larger context of Johnson's life. For all that he may not have been a saint, I'm fairly certain that he would have objected to any hint of his music being considered blues. There are many musicians who played both styles of music, unambiguously: Son House, Charlie Patton, Fred McDowell, John Hurt, Furry Lewis... etc etc. House even said "you can sing the blues in church if you use the words right". However, many of House's songs were clearly blues; none of BWJ's recordings were. Even the less overtly sacred tunes - When The War Was On, etc. - do not follow any standard blues structure.

How can you call someone a blues musician when there's not a single blues tune in his repetoire? The comparison to Gary Davis is weak; Davis recorded a few blues tunes. Johnson did not.

--RobHutten 14:51, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Beethoven, Sex Pistols...if we are reaching outside of the blues genre, then let's go outside music altogether and include Van Gogh, Tolstoy, and Anne Frank. Come on now, you're stretching a little too far to make your point. I'm not defining blues simply as the music (or any other art for that matter) by a tortured, passionate individual. Blues does have a specific sound. And I do feel that Blind Willie's music has that specific sound. But how do we define that sound?
Certainly not solely by the "AAB" lyrical format that according to you, "practically defines the blues genre" (your number three). Or maybe we should just throw out Skip James and Leadbelly. And half of John Hurt's and Mance Lipscomb's songbooks (but we should probably be calling them "songsters" anyway, am I right? See your number two). Many of the most recognizable blues songs don't follow the "AAB" format: "See That My Grave is Kept Clean" (Blind Lemon Jefferson). "Boom Boom" (John Lee Hooker). "Mannish Boy" (Muddy Waters). "Sitting On Top of the World"/"Come On in My Kitchen" (countless).
Now, you also say that Blind Willie did not record a single blues song. How about "Mother's Children"--not only is it blues, but it's a blues song that pops up in dozens firmly-defined blues singers' recordings (usually as "Motherless Children"): Son House, Mance Lipscomb, Jessie Mae Hemphill, Big Joe Williams, Josh White, the apparently controversial Gary Davis, and crossover blues performers like Eric Clapton, Odetta, the Steve Miller Band, and John Renbourn. Look at "If I Had My Way" and "I'm Gonna Run to the City of Refuge". While these songs' lyrics are obviously taken from Scripture, the melody sure wasn't. Compare their choruses to the quite un-biblical Robert Johnson tune "Last Fair Deal Gone Down" (which itself was based on Blind Lemon Jefferson's "See That My Grave is Kept Clean").
Nor do I think the comparison to Gary Davis is weak at all. We are arguing about whether Blind Willie Johnson's music is blues or gospel, right? Regarding your number one--does a blues song have to not have gospel lyrics? Rather, if a blues song has lyrics referring to the Scripture, does that instantly negate it from being "real" blues? Do "real" blues songs have to be about violence, loose women, hard liquor, and fast cars? How many are about God and the devil? Heaven and hell? Sin and repentance? Remember I am arguing that Blind Willie's music is a combitation of blues and gospel. I feel the same about Gary Davis. The vast majority of Gary's music was obviously spiritual. Why is he more "blues" than Blind Willie? Because he recorded "Cocaine" (albeit instrumental), and "Candy Man"? Or maybe he lived long enough to perform at the Newport festivals with John Hurt, Fred McDowell, and Mance Lipscomb as part of the blues revival. --buck 01:18, 25 September 2005 (UTC)


Re: Davis: Actually, I was thinking of his "Cross and Evil Woman". His "Cocaine" is, in my book, a rag. So are many of John Hurt's songs - more rag than blues, that is. That's not a judgement call in any way - Hurt's probably my favourite recorded musician and I love everything he recorded. But lots of his tunes weren't blues - not by my definition.

Re: Motherless Children: I'd say it's probably pre-blues in origin, but I have no evidence at hand to back that statement up. What I do have is its inclusion in a 1929 hymnal in my collection, under a section called "Songs of Death". I'm about 99% certain that most church-going African-American southerners of the '20s and '30s would not have considered it a blues.

Every performer you listed as having performed the song also recorded other songs which were not blues, so I'm not sure where you were going with that. (And since when is Renbourn a firmly-defined blues musician? - no, don't answer that.)

As to Hurt and Lipscomb being "songsters" - right on. Both played some blues, obviously. Would you consider Hurt's "Let The Mermaids Flirt With Me" a blues?

Re: Lemon's "See That My Grave Is Kept Clean" - it's AAAB, which is most definitely a recognized variant of the standard AAB structure.

Re: Hooker's "Boom Boom" - I'd bet good money that he wouldn't call that a blues song. Here's what he said about the similar song "Boogie Chillun" in a Guitar Player Magazine interview with B.B. King in 1993:

BBK: For instance, when John Lee made "Boogie Chillun", that wasn't blues. That was get up and get it!

JLH: Get up and go! That was the first rock!

BBK: That's right!

JLH: So when people say blues and you say "Boogie Chillun", how in the heck could he be blue? He's havin' a ball! He's havin' a good time."


As to "does a blues song have to not have gospel lyrics?" I guess not, but it does have to meet some meaningful definition of the term. And why not go with the definition most common within the culture that created the stuff? There's real value in having meaningful definitions for musical genres, and BWJ's oevre is adequately described by the term "gospel music", especially when taken in the context of a self-accompanied performer of his era.

The "bluesy" elements that you are attributing to blues and to BWJ's music are shared elements in many/most African-American musical styles. So just because a gospel song sounds bluesy to you - "that sound", as you say - doesn't mean it's a blues song, not if the term is to have any usefulness in classifying musical performances. It's African-American music, yes. But blues is one genre in African-American music. It's like calling an Andean huayno a salsa; sure, it's got an identifiably Latin rhythm, but it's not a salsa - it's a huayno.

I see you've gone ahead and changed the page... thanks for at least noting the dispute. I'm not going to remove the word "blues" again, although I'm now even more annoyed by its inclusion than I was when I started this whole rigamarole.

Grumpily yours, --RobHutten 01:50, 26 September 2005 (UTC)


No need to get grumpy. I didn't change it to annoy you--the opposite, actually. I thought the inclusion of blues and gospel was an agreed compromise. I also expanded the categories to include BWJ with the other categorized gospel singers. Go ahead and arrange it how you see fit--this article needs some serious overhauling anyway. The only place I am not willing to compromise is where BWJ is stated as being only gospel or only blues. Many people besides me agree that he combines the two genres.
I'm content at ending the discussion here, but you've thrown me some irresistable bait. I can't help myself.
Try reading your BB King/John Lee Hooker interview again. They are telling us that "Boogie Chillun" isn't blues not because it deviates from some predetermined set of music theory guidelines, but because it is one of the seminal records that spawned rock n' roll. Those guys don't care how Alan Lomax would categorize their songs or how their music looks when transcibed in musical notation. They are emphasizing that songs like "Boogie Chillun" laid the foundation for what would become rock 'n roll. Surely even you wouldn't argue against blues directly influencing rock n' roll...?
  • "Every performer you listed as having performed the song also recorded other songs which were not blues, so I'm not sure where you were going with that."
How are you not sure? My whole arguement is that BWJ combined blues with "non-blues" (or more accurately, gospel with "non-gospel", where non-gospel includes blues), as did these other performers. You disagree with John Renbourn too? OK. I won't go down that path.
  • Would you consider Hurt's "Let The Mermaids Flirt With Me" a blues?
Yes. But I wouldn't be naive enough to call it only blues. It's equally a rag, a ballad, a country tune, a gospel tune, a yodel ("Waiting For a Train")...it doesn't fall under one label. But he sure makes it more of a blues song than Jimmie Rodgers (although, for another discussion, I'd say that Jimmie sang his share of blues as well).
Your examples beg the question: if a blues singer records a non-blues song, is he no longer a blues singer? Or the same for gospel--if a gospel singer sings a blues song, is he no longer a gospel singer? Your arguements tell me your answer is yes. BB King has recorded whole albums of gospel music. Would you no longer call him a bluesman? Your boys the Sex Pistols recorded "Jonny B. Goode". Are they now r&b instead of punk? They even covered the Frank Sinatra hit "My Way". Do you think of the Sex Pistols when you listen to the Great American Songbook?
  • Lemon's "See That My Grave Is Kept Clean" - it's AAAB, which is most definitely a recognized variant of the standard AAB structure.
Now you're fumbling. I mentioned this song in a comparison to Johnson's songs "If I Had My Way..." and "I'm Gonna Run..." (and I even failed to mention "I Know His Blood Can Make Me Whole"). You say this song is a recognized variant of a standard blues structure, therefore defining BWJ as blues.
I agree with your statement that most, if not all, forms of African-American music contain "bluesy" elements. Are you implying that I would define all African-American music as blues? While jazz, soul, hip-hop, doo wop, American reggae, and funk certainly contain elements of blues (some more than others), I don't group them in blues.
Lastly, let me say that I believe that limiting musicians to only one genre is basically a Sisyphean task. The great ones transcend genres. Bob Dylan is more than a folk singer. Louis Armstrong was more than just jazz. The Beatles were much more than pop. The Carter Family were more than just country. And yes, Blind Willie Johnson was much more than just gospel. --buck 05:19, 26 September 2005 (UTC)


* I didn't change it to annoy you--the opposite, actually. I thought the inclusion of blues and gospel was an agreed compromise.

It was, before I convinced myself otherwise :)

  • The only place I am not willing to compromise is where BWJ is stated as being only gospel or only blues. Many people besides me agree that he combines the two genres.

Many people think a lot of things. But this is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a repository of opinion. I'm attempting to classify an important musician based on accepted definitions - accepted by music scholars and the musicians themselves.

*Try reading your BB King/John Lee Hooker interview again.

I've read it many, many times.

  • Those guys don't care how Alan Lomax would categorize their songs

Nor would I.

  • or how their music looks when transcibed in musical notation.

Where are you getting this stuff? I never implied any such thing. Please address my actual comments, not your misperceptions of my opinions.

  • They are emphasizing that songs like "Boogie Chillun" laid the foundation for what would become rock 'n roll.

And, while doing so, explicitly stating that the song is not blues!

  • Surely even you wouldn't argue against blues directly influencing rock n' roll...?

Oh, for pete's sake, Buck!

  • My whole arguement is that BWJ combined blues with "non-blues" (or more accurately, gospel with "non-gospel", where non-gospel includes blues), as did these other performers.

You're not arguing it - you're simply re-stating the case over and over again. With the arguable exception of Motherless Child, you've yet to state which of BWJ's songs are blues, or even why any of them aren't sufficiently covered by the term "gospel".

   * Would you consider Hurt's "Let The Mermaids Flirt With Me" a blues?
  • Yes.

I was asking that question rhetorically - I never actually thought you call that song a blues.

  • But I wouldn't be naive enough to call it only blues. It's equally a rag, a ballad, a country tune, a gospel tune, a yodel ("Waiting For a Train")...it doesn't fall under one label.

I fear to ask, but could you please offer some justification for calling this completely secular song a "gospel tune"? If you're going to insist on ignoring accepted, standard definitions, you should rethink contributing to an encyclopedia project. The wikipedia page for gospel music is actually a good place to start if you want a definition of the term.

  • But he sure makes it more of a blues song than Jimmie Rodgers (although, for another discussion, I'd say that Jimmie sang his share of blues as well).

I'll certainly agree on that second point. Hurt's delivery of the melody is obviously influenced by African-American music, but it's not a blues song just because it was sung by a Black guy.

  • Your examples beg the question: if a blues singer records a non-blues song, is he no longer a blues singer?

Of course not, and nothing of the sort was ever implied in anything I wrote. One singer can perform several types of music.

  • Or the same for gospel--if a gospel singer sings a blues song, is he no longer a gospel singer? Your arguements tell me your answer is yes.

See above - please address the points I actually state, rather than the ones you're (erroneously) infering.

  • Your boys the Sex Pistols [...]

PLEASE STOP. I can't stand the Sex Pistols' music. I tossed that example into the discussion as a reaction to your attempt to define BWJ's music as "blues" because of the "ferociousness" of his vocal delivery. That's no sort of definition that belongs in an encyclopedia.

       * Lemon's "See That My Grave Is Kept Clean" - it's AAAB, which is most definitely a recognized variant of the standard AAB structure.
  • Now you're fumbling. I mentioned this song in a comparison to Johnson's songs "If I Had My Way..." and "I'm Gonna Run..." (and I even failed to mention "I Know His Blood Can Make Me Whole"). You say this song is a recognized variant of a standard blues structure, therefore defining BWJ as blues.

Your logic is puzzling. I disagreed with your assessment that I would not classify Lemon's song as a blues because it wasn't AAB. You had raised that song as being the basis for a Robert Johnson song which was similar, melodically, to the choruses of two of BWJ's songs. At no time did I hinge my definition of BWJ's music on the blues-ness or non-blues-ness of a Blind Lemon Jefferson song which may or may not be the basis of a Robert Johnson song which happens to sound like the chorus of a couple of BWJ's gospel songs. Nor should you.

  • I agree with your statement that most, if not all, forms of African-American music contain "bluesy" elements. Are you implying that I would define all African-American music as blues?

You seem to be doing just that. You're offering no other evidence for classifying Hurt's Mermaid ditty as a blues. It's a cool song, played and sang well. But it's laughable to call it a blues song.


  • And yes, Blind Willie Johnson was much more than just gospel.

I think BWJ was one of the greatest msuicians America ever produced, and in no way is his significant contribution to world culture lessened one iota by classifying his music as gospel.

And I'm done. --RobHutten 11:49, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, this is getting us nowhere. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Although this has been fun for me, and quite educational. Peace & plenty. --buck 14:24, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

As near as I can tell, there is no factual dispute and the only reason for having the warning on the main page is one guy's sumpsimian personality. Rob's opinions about ethnicity and musical categorization are duly noted, but I'm removing the tag, inasmuch as, in any useful or practical sense of the term, Blind Willie was a blues artist - his work is included in blues compilations, is considered a "bluesman", is part of the legend of the history of the American Blues, and will be found - when one is searching for his music - in the blues section of one's local or online music store. --jowfair 10 October 2005


I support removing the dispute warning, although perhaps not for the reason it was removed.

As to my sumpsimian personality - I'll ask again: is this an encyclopedia or a repository of opinion?

Either way, please leave personalities out of this, and stick to the merits of arguments.

"Argue facts, not personalities." - Wikiquette

So far the arguments here for defining Johnson as a blues musician have been "he sounds bluesy to me", "he sounds like other musicians who sang blues songs" and "everyone else calls him a bluesman." I'm offering evidence that he recorded no blues songs (by the accepted definition of the term), and that the ostensibly "bluesy" elements in his music are, in fact, common to other distinct African American musical forms. Please, concede or argue these statements.

"One of the keys to writing good encyclopedia articles is to understand that they should refer only to facts, assertions, theories, ideas, claims, opinions, and arguments that have already been published by a reputable publisher." - Wikipedia: Verifiability

--RobHutten 16:58, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I am interested in the comment that there are people in Beaumont interested in finding his grave and that there is some dispute where the grave is. I personally does not think that fits the facts well. I don't know of anyone that even can take a guess at where the grave is. The cemetary where he is buried is clearly marked on the death certificate, but I have looked and I have not found any stone with his name on it. If there ARE people in Beaumont looking for his gravesite I would like to put in contact with them. I do not know where that information in the article came from? I am also interested in any information about his 2nd wife that lived with him in Beaumont. Sam Charters interviewed her in the 1950s but I could find no reference to her after that point. My email is jharper4@houston.rr.com and feel free to contact me if you can help with these issues. I believe Blind Willie has a daughter that is living in Mexia now (moved back a couple of years ago) but I have not spoken with her in several years. I personally think of Blind Willie as a bluesman with a lot of religious content, he lived the lifestyle, music sounds like blues, and he doesn't really fit the definition of a purely religious singer either. The word "blues" has a bigger definition than just purely a song form (though it can be used that way), and if "Dark Was the Night" isn't a blues, if in feeling if not in form, I am not sure what would be. I don't really think focusing on the song form and disregarding the feel of the music is quite fair. My email is jharper4@houston.rr.com. I have since read that Steve McVie tried to get the remaining daughter to sign up with him but that she choose not to.

[edit] Bottleneck

This page classifies Blind Willie Johnson as a bottleneck slide player. As far as I know, he played lap slide, fretting the guitar with a pocket knife. I think that's a worthwhile distinction to make. Yes? No?

I haven't heard that he played lap-style, though I certainly wouldn't put it past his abilities. The "classic" photo of Blind Willie shows him holding his guitar upright with a bottleneck slide affixed to his finger. While I'm thinking of it, I think I'll add that pic to the article. Listening to the recordings, I'd say it sounds like bottleneck, but he may not playing in this fashion in every song. Rob, do you happen to know if Blind Willie used a pocketknife? --buck 22:23, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
well, your source is a photograph and mine is my ex-guitar teacher, so evidence would suggest you're right. i think he did play lapstyle at least some of the time.

---

There's no report of him playing lapstyle that I know of. The subject came up in a Guitar Player Magazine interview with Ry Cooder; Cooder believes BWJ played bottleneck. So do I. I play both styles and, to my ear, he's holding the guitar in the normal position as do most sliders who primarily play single-note melodies. He never barres complete chords with the slide (except the occassional 12th-fret tonic), which is practically universal amongst lap-sliders. Compare BWJ's sound with, say, Charley Patton's - Patton almost definitely played lap-style.

Another hint is that when BWJ slides on the 2nd string you can usually hear ghost notes on the unmuted 1st string. This is more typical of lap sliders than lap sliders - when playing a 2nd-string melody lap-style, you're pretty much forced to use the tip of the bar on that single string. So the bar wouldn't reach the 1st string to produce those ghost notes. With bottleneck style, 1st-string ghost notes are almost a given when playing 2nd-string melodies, unless you mute the 1st string. BWJ didn't mute much, if at all.

I don't have access to Charters' liner notes from the Columbia set right now - he may have a report on the type of slide BWJ used... that could be a clue.

--RobHutten 13:35, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Just looking at the photo and thought of another good argument for BWJ not playing lap-slide - he had a cup wired to the headstock of his guitar for collecting tips. If he were to lay his guitar on his lap, all the change would fall out :-) --RobHutten 13:50, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

  • I have those liner notes at home. When I think of it, I'll flip through them and see if there's a mention of BWJ's bottleneck (or lack thereof). --buck 14:17, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Well, oddly enough, I came across this sentence in Sam Charters' liner notes to Columbia release. In describing Johnson's recording of "I Know His Blood Can Make Me Whole":
The accompaniment was played with a slide, probably a pocket knife, and as in all his slide pieces the guitar was in open D tuning.
I agree with Rob (fancy that!) in that since I play both styles (though I much prefer bottleneck), Johnson's recordings sound like he's playing with a bottleneck slide and holding the guitar upright, judging by the lack of muting as well as the fierce, rhythmic strums (difficult to do when the guitar is laying flat, but not impossible).
I found no mention that he played lapstyle, just that he may have used a knife. There are other references to his slide playing, but none as specific. Not really sure how to incorporate this into the article, though. --buck 14:58, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

--- Thanks for digging that up, Buck. As for the article, I'd leave it alone. There's not sufficient speculation that he played lapslide to warrant mention, is there? --RobHutten 11:27, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

I have added a little bit at the end of the article, something Marc Ribot wrote about Blind Willie. Since I'm note a native english-speaker (I'm from Berlin, Germany), please feel free to correct and improve my addition. (Jodeffes 21:16, 29 March 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Masters

Johnson's records have very good sound quality compared to S.James, C.Patton, S.House & B.L.Jefferson. So, have the original metal masters survived? --128.214.205.4 10:04, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reorganization of material

Re-worked the main sections for clarity, grammar, and more neutral language. -- Denstat 06:54, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] bottleneck/ring/slide

I'm removing the "Although he is called a bottleneck guitarist,..." sentence from the first paragraph; it doesn't really belong in the intro, and the nature of his slider is covered later in the article. --RobHutten 23:34, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

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