Talk:Bleak House

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Article Grading: The following comments were left by the quality and importance raters: (edit) This article needs a total overhaul to conform with the Novels template. I've just put in an infobox so at least that's done.--Ibis3 05:25, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
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Contents 1 Please ID a Book with a similar Title 2 Excerpt Says Little 3 Bleak House by Charles Dickens 4 BLEAK HOUSE 5 Plot summary 6 Legacy 7 Plagiarism evident

[edit] Please ID a Book with a similar Title

Back in college, I remember reading a short story (or Novella - about 80 pages long - it may have been edited down, but was meant for native speakers of German) with a remarkably similar title - Das Öde Haus (The Bleak House) but I can't remember the author, and it surely wasn't Charles Dickens. In Das Öde Haus, a man rents out a flat in a rather run-down house, and one day notices a tiny sound coming out of the corner of his room. Intrigued, he listens for it day after day, until he can pick up a rather small voice that seems to speak to him directly. Unlike Edgar Allan Poe's The Telltale Heart, the tiny sound or voice starts out unintelligible, but begins to make sense with time, until it has finally impressed upon him the urgency of doing favors for it, and ultimately having to obey it. (Not a good idea if you have to keep paying the rent, I guess, as he was ultimately thrown out for nonpayment of rent, if my memory serves me right.)

Can anybody identify this story from the description above? And even more important, who was its author? It's not Charles Dickens.

Google says that E.T.A. Hoffmann wrote a story called "Das Ode Haus" (probably published in Der Sandmann). His WP article has a link to Gutenburg - try there? JackyR 14:40, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! You've been very helpful!

E.T.A. Hoffmann appears to have written the story in 1817, a year after he published Der Sandmann.

[edit] Excerpt Says Little

The following quotation from the book originally formed the body of the article, but obviously says nothing about the book.

(Quotation)

On such an afternoon, if ever, the Lord High Chancellor ought to be sitting here - as here he is - with a foggy glory round his head, softly fenced in with crimson cloth and curtains [...] and outwardly directing his contemplation to the lantern in the roof, where he can see nothing but fog. On such an afternoon some score of members of the High Court of Chancery bar ought to be - as here they are - mistily engaged in one of the ten thousand stages of an endless cause, tripping one another up on slippery precedents, groping knee-deep in technicalities, running their goat-hair and horsehair warded heads against walls of words and making a pretence of equity with serious faces, as players might.

[edit] Bleak House by Charles Dickens

The name of Mercury was a nickname given to footmen by Dickens in this novel because they were used as messengers like the winged god and also by the standards of the day appeared godlike.I don't know whether anyone else used this term. In chapter 48 he refers to "Mercuries ...reposing in the hall."and "Mercury takes another flight" .It is a typical literary joke of Dickens which he keeps up throughout the book. In the ninteenth century very wealthy families would select male servants who were very tall and with good features for these positions. They were bewigged and dressed in 18th century costume and were stationed at the main door to recieve visitors and also assist them into and out of carriages, and to deliver messages by hand. An obvious symbol of wealth and status.In the BBC version of Bleak House, Lady Dedlock addresses her footman by the name of Mercury. This is not in the book and I do not think it would have happened.Dickens is fond of using classical allusions and has Richard refer to his beloved Ada as Minerva on at least one occasion.

Hello unnamed person. Yes, you're completely right. Mercury is the third person narrator's tongue-in-cheek characterisation of the various footmen (they are interchangable) in service to the Dedlocks. I cringed when I saw that in the adaptation & I've removed Mercury from the minor character list accordingly.--Ibis3 05:23, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] BLEAK HOUSE

Dear Ibis, We have only just seen this adaptation in Oz. It was good to find someone who has actually read the whole novel. There are some scenes in this adaptation where the young ladies meet gentlemen who do not have their jackets on. This would have been unthinkable in victorian times. If it had happened by accident it would have been quickly remedied and profuse apologies given. Even I can remember in my distant childhood of the 1940s that gentlemen did not appear without their jackets in front of ladies. Why did they change the deathbed scene of Jo so that it was Esther and not Mr Woodcourt who said the Lord's Prayer? Also, some of the characters, e.g. Mrs Snagsby, who were left out, were so crucial to the narrative that their omission completely alters the story. I've just watched another episode and now Mrs Rouncewell has called the footman "Mr. Mercury" and also Mr Bucket refered to him as "Mercury". The crucial scenes between the policeman and the Dedlocks are so changed as to alter the whole story. Oh,dear.It's getting worse. Booklover

Hi Joan (aka Booklover), I've just restored your comments by reverting to the last version that had them. No problem. :) Feel free to get in touch via my talk page if you need anything in the future. Anyway, you might want to register so you can sign your edits and comments with your name (which you can do even now by clicking on the signature button over the edit screen -- it will just sign with your IP address). --Ibis3 15:34, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plot summary

Either today or tomorrow, I'm going to try to add as rational a synopsis as I can manage. I'll miss out the minor plotlines, and simply give the broad trajectories of Esther/Jarndyce/Woodcourt, Ada/Rick, Esther/Lady Dedlock, Lady Dedlock/Tulkinghorn. With lots of spoiler warnings, of course. Ajcounter 16:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't need many just a top and tail "spoiler" "endspoiler" as included in the Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels/ArticleTemplate pattern. Also it would be nice to have a shortish "Plot introduction" that acts as a spoiler free taster to anyone who would like to think about reading the novel. Also you might like to consider joining the project. Thanks. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 16:32, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Legacy

Hi, I'm the person who added the legacy stuff - and you're a person who wasn't signed in, so I hope you find this here. The ref for the Bondswoman's Narrative is under References, a few lines below. That paragraph has been "improved" since I wrote it, so if I ever put a linking footnote in it's certainly gone now.

But you're right, there is a Q about original research and books. I'm not sure I've seen it resolved consistently. Because if taking information from the novel is original research, then most Plot Synopses are original research, unless derived from Amazon! Of course there are novels for which lit crit with a synopsis has been published, but this by no means covers all books which make it into WP. In fact, much of the information in the "Analysis and Criticism" section is also direct from the novel. I know this because I wrote those bits: and since that section also has no cites you have no more reason to believe it than the "Legacy" section. So you may feel it is better to remove all material drawn from the novels themsleves.

Actually, I now can't remember whether the comparison to Bleak House uses a direct description of Bondswoman, or is mentioned in the intro/notes to Gates' edition. So at least one of use will have to, ahem, follow the reference and check (I'd borrowed the book from a library). WP's footnoting - and my knowledge of it - have both moved on rather a lot since I first put that in, so it would now be possible to give quite thorough refs without disrupting the flow too much.

For now, I'm putting that section back to what it was, simply because the code seems to be buggered and it's unreadable (maybe a temporary development glitch): please do reinstate "cites" where you feel appropriate, until such time as one of us checks the ref. Not necess, as § deleted.

Meanwhile, it would be very good to have your comment on where you would be comfortable drawing the line between info taken directly from a novel, and information taken from secondary sources (the ideal). JackyR | Talk 18:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, Stbalbach's taken it out without giving the reason, but left Bondswoman under "References". *sigh* Can we sort this out here, please? JackyR | Talk 18:05, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plagiarism evident

The first paragraph of this article ends with a question (bad form in an encyclopedia), which I suspect means it was lifted from some instructor's or education service's website. Any ideas? Thor Rudebeck 17:16, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi Thor, I agree with you. Whether or not it's plagiarism, it's a badly-organized paragraph, and the material leading up to that question doesn't belong in the introduction. It would be better off in a section on literary criticism or social context. If nobody chimes in soon, I'll jump in just to tidy it up. Greginnj 14:11, 27 March 2007 (UTC)