Talk:Blackjack

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[edit] Charlie

Is the "Charlie" referenced in this article a standard Blackjack rule? I can't tell from this article. -Itsdannyg 19:50, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Done, but I see that the same could be said about many of the rules. E.g. DAS is common in multideck, uncommon in SD, RSA is uncommon, etc. Maybe there is a better way of conveying this, e.g. listing common rules for the strip, downtown, single/double/multi decks, etc. --Mike Van Emmerik 07:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image

We're told that a blackjack has an ace of spades and a black jack, but the picture shows an ace of hearts. Which is correct?

  • The reference you're talking about is no longer valid in terms of the game; any combination of an ace and a 10-valued card makes a blackjack in the game. Willbyr (talk • contribs)

[edit] Insurance

I don't quite understand how insurance works. As I understand it, you place another bet, worth half your original bet, that the dealer will get a blackjack. If you're correct, then you lose your original bet because you lost, but you get twice your insurance bet, so overall, you get and lose nothing. If you're wrong, and you beat the dealer, then you lose your insurance and gain your original, so you gain the equivalent of half your original bet. If you're wrong, and you don't beat the dealer, then you lose both your insurance bet and your original bet, which means you lose the equivalent of one-and-a-half original bets.

I don't necessarily say that the section needs rewording - it might just be my incompetence, so I'll leave you to figure that part out - but if someone could clarify that for me that'd be great. Neonumbers 08:03, 2 September 2005 (UTC)


I tried to re-write the Insurance section, but it came out just as confusing. Your understanding is correct though.--Fieldcommand 04:07, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks.  :-) Neonumbers 22:51, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Is Insurance any clearer now ? --The Gnome 01:32, 6 October 2005


Here's another look at Insurance. Its a side-bet that has about a 7% advantage for the House. Card-Counting can predict when the Player should take the bet, as there are an excess of 10-valued cards remaining in the shoe. In fact the card-counter can have quite an advantage. This has become known by the House due to the Griffin reports made availible. As such, taking insurance, and winning, is a signal that a Player is counting cards. Its best not to take Insurance even if counting cards. [[[User:ZenTaoKarma|ZenTaoKarma]] 18:28, 5 January 2006 (UTC)]

Isn't all this covered in the article already? The Gnome 08:52, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


Whats the reference for it being to the player's advantage to take insurance if there are no tens showing and 7 players at the table? The house edge on insurance is only eliminated if there's a greater than 1/3 chance the dealer has a 10 underneath, and even in 4-deck its only a 64/193 (just under 1/3) probability the dealer has a 10, assuming an always shuffled shoe. And you'd have to play an awful lot of hands to ever see that situation arise in less than 4-deck. Or does this "advantage" just mean the insurance bet has a lower house edge than your regular blackjack bet, so that taking it will lower the overall house edge? Dangermouse29 6:25, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

That's a good point. According to my calculations, even 3 tens showing at single deck is profitable (e=5.4%, like double zero roulette but in your favour). With no tens showing, insurance is worth almost 30% by my calculations (15% of your original bet). But this assumes you can see all the player's cards; I guess this is why you never see face up single deck. At double deck, you would see insurance profitable with up to two tens visible. Perhaps single deck face down is assumed, and somehow you use the fact that no-one has declared a blackjack? Or you are supposed to peek at the dealt cards somehow? Neither of these seems likely. --Mike Van Emmerik 00:41, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Online countermeasures

Just curious how you know that online casinos shuffle every hand. Do you have access to the source code for the host program, or do you just base this on the lack of correlation of the count and the distribution of tens and aces next hand? I suppose it would be easy at a single deck game, e.g. 6 of spades was seen last game, there was no shuffle animation, yet the 6 of spades turns up again next deal or in a hit card. With multideck games, this would be much harder to spot, presumably. Finally, are you fairly confident that practically every online casino does this? I guess if I were offering blackjack online, I'd shuffle every hand, since it only affects the counters, costs almost nothing to do, and makes it very difficult for smart customers to beat my game. --Mike Van Emmerik 21:24, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

online casinos have a rules section that will state how often the deck is shuffled, IMO it is accurate to say that most shuffle after every hand.--Fieldcommand 04:13, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Casino Bonus Key to Winning not Card Counting

When Gambling online in the game of blackjack the cards are shuffled every hand at every casino so card counting is useless. The only advantage or strategy you can use is basic blackjack strategy. Land based casino's you can count cards. An advantage of online blackjack play is that you get bonus money offered by online casino's because they realize, that there's no way they can take away land based casino business unless they offer some kind of incentive. This incentive is usually 100% bonus on your deposit and requires you to meet some kind of wagering requirement. By getting a bonus you are essentially gambling with the casino's money for free. By making low wagers every hand say like $2 you lower the standard deviation from the mean (or the amount of money you started with plus the bonus) so if you play using basic perfect strategy since the house edge is usually less than 1% you should be able to maintan moneys close to where you started and meet wagered requirements and still have money left from the bonus the casino gave you thereby never even wagering your own money.

[edit] Basic Strategy guide flawed?

Can someone please verify the basic strategy table? I don't believe that when the Dealer's face-up card is a 7 or 8 you should stand when you have a hard 15 or 16.

You're absolutely right! This was a serious mistake. There was another one there, 6-6 against a dealer showing a 6 is clearly a SPlit. Thanks for pointing it out! Owen× ☎ 13:14, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Is anyone able to verify that the soft total table is 100% correct? I've compared it to the table given in Edward Thorp's book, and although I expected some discrepancies, the differences are massive.

Well, you might want to pick a more modern resource, like http://WizardOfOdds.com/blackjack . Thorp's book is nearly half a century old, and blackjack has changed quite a bit since then. I did correct two obvious errors in the table. Michael Bluejay 00:30, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

On beat blackjack there is an online version, which calculates exact probabilities and expectations according the each possible card distribution in the shoe. The source code for that program is supplied, so everybody can verify ist correctness. For unknown reasons this link has been removed from the main page.

If you think it's worthy of being included, you can add it back -- especially if it was removed by a non-registered user who provided no explanation. Also, please sign your comments by using four tildes. Thanks, Michael Bluejay 23:52, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Most basic strategy tables that I have seen (for the American and European version) recommend a stay when the player has a soft 18 and the dealer's upcard is 2, Wikipedia's table recommends a double. Also, all tables recommend a stay on all soft hand 19s, while the wikipedia table is the only one I have seen where it recommends a double if the dealer's upcard is 6. Can someone clarify these two situations, and if the table is correct, bring give sources. Thank you. 88.255.1.180 23:07, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Aryan

The Wizard of Odds charts are correct, and are the definitive source. The Wizard is the foremost expert on gambling math in the world. -MichaelBluejay 00:30, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] References

I took out Blackjack Ace Prediction, by David McDowell, 2004. The book is at the very least containing a lot of unsubstantiated and mathematically unsound claims. This has been exposed on Arnold Snyder's website, among other places on the net. Here's a bunch of links:

McDowell's Folly: Commentary on David McDowell's Blackjack Ace Prediction, by Arnold Snyder http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/mcdowellsfolly.htm

Errors in False Key Probability in David McDowell's Blackjack Ace Prediction and Corrections of McDowell's Win Rate Estimate, by Radar O' Reilly http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/correctionfalsekeys.htm

The Win Rate calculation in McDowell's book, by ETFan, http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/etfanletter.htm

Convexing Calculations for McDowell's Blackjack Ace Prediction Book, by ET Fan http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/convexingcalculations.htm

--The Gnome 12:28, 14 November 2005

Just a note from an infrequent contributor/cleaner of the article (variants is my baby ;): Good work to everyone on this one! D.valued 08:14, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Split card-counting into a separate article?

This article is huge. Should we split card-counting off into a separate article? Michael Bluejay 06:27, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Why is it called "Black Jack"?

Anyone know? If so, maybe it should be included. 206.201.180.226 15:40, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

The answer seems to be here:

how stuff works, with a different slant here www.worlds-best-online-casinos.com/Articles/Blackjack-History.html (can't link because of a spam block!). Since knowledge/history is in the public domain, I'm sure this info could be worked into the article. --Mike Van Emmerik 22:44, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] removed

==Other casino games that are potentially beatable==
Casino games in which a player can get an advantage with sufficiently skilled play and game selection include poker tables, video poker machines, and a few video slot machines. Games such as roulette and craps cannot be beaten with any kind of betting system or strategy, though roulette is potentially beatable if the player can discover a rare biased wheel, and craps is potentially beatable if the player can throw the dice in such a way that certain totals appear more or less frequently than they would with a completely random throw.

This does not concern Blackjack in any way, so I removed it. I might as well add a section on boats to airplane since both are vehicles.

Yup, totally agree. Plus it's already at Gambling#.22Beatable.22_casino_games; I would not object to a "see also" entry pointing there. --Mike Van Emmerik 22:09, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] shuffle tracking

I am troubled by the claim that Arnold Snyder introduced shuffle tracking to the general public. Jerry Patterson wrote about it long before Snyder. 192.139.140.243 05:41, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Even money

One thing that I didn't see in the article (and I may have overlooked it) is that some casinos will allow a player to take even money on a blackjack rather than the normal 3:2 payout if the dealer's up card is an ace. Willbyr 13:51, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

That's exactly the same as taking insurance, which is why all—not some—casinos offer it. Owen× ☎ 18:01, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I see what you mean, but the fact that you don't actually place an insurance bet makes it slightly different than taking insurance. What you're doing is making sure that you win with your blackjack instead of possibly losing your bet along with everyone else if the dealer has a blackjack and you don't take the even money payout. I have only played at the casinos in Tunica so I didn't know if this was a policy that all casinos followed or if some did it and some didn't. Willbyr 04:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
You cannot "lose your bet" when you have a natural and refuse to take even money. If the dealer turns up a natural of his own, you do not lose your bet: You are just not paid anything, because it's a tie. If the dealer turns up anything except a natural, the dealer pays you the regular 3:2 before proceeding with the rest of his hand.
That you're not placing an insurance bet on the table does not change the fact that taking even money is indeed exactly the same as taking insurance! The Gnome 15:50, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No-bust black

No-bust blackjack is the only variant allowed in California cardrooms and thus a very popular there. A section describing this variant would be valuable


[edit] Splitting

Can you split J, Q, K since they have the same value? Such as if you get K and a Q, or is it only if they are the same - two kings etc. -- Astrokey44|talk 05:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Only if they are the same face. However, showing 20 is highly favorable so it is not recommended. Even if the dealer is showing an Ace, you're odds are greatly lessened by spliting. pattersonc 02:22, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Am I missing something in this exchange? The player can split any pair of 10-valued cards. Example: the 10 of hearts and the King of spades can be split. The Gnome 08:56, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
  • According to THIS site, it depends on the casino. The link also explains other rare split rules. pattersonc 02:22, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Yes, I've been in some casinos in Australia that forbid splitting say a jack and ten, they have to be both jacks or both tens. This despite the fact that usually it is in the casino's favour to allow splitting of tens. Splitting of tens is favourable only when the count is high, and then only against a weak dealer card like a 5 or 6. Most authorities state that it is not advisable to split tens even when favourable, as it is a strong indication that the player is a card counter (if not obviously an idiot). --Mike Van Emmerik 13:03, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Players so rarely split tens that you make take the casino by surprise when you try to do so. The floor supervisor may make up a "rule" on the spot. (S)he doesn't want to appear unknowledgeable. And if you ask, "CAN I split these?", you obviously want to, so the casino might think that "restricting" you is the safer call, even though they'll make more money if they let you split willy-nilly (assuming you're not counting cards). I'm reminded in one of Ian Andersen's books where he got early surrender by carefully phrasing his question: "Can I wait until the dealer checks her hole card before I surrender, or would I have to surrender now?" -MichaelBluejay 03:34, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Minimum bet?

What is the minimum bet a player can make? Dionyseus 09:37, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Depends on the casino/game. where I played it was a $5 minimum -- Astrokey44|talk 15:12, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Indeed; I've never been to a casino where the minimum bet was less than $5. I've also played in an Indian casino which required a 50¢ ante as well as the $5 minimum bet. Willbyr 04:16, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Casino Apache in Ruidoso, NM has a minimum of $3 dlls. Irwin 01:10, 1/5/06 MT

[edit] Pontoon

Would it be useful to have a separate Wiki entry for Pontoon as separate from blackjack? After all, it is more of a different, independent game than simply the "British version" of blackjack or simply another blackjack variant (I see their relationship as akin to rounders/cricket vs. baseball).

I'm a Wiki newbie and wouldn't mind making this my first article. However, since the blackjack page is a featured article, I don't want to mess anything up. --Hoyapaul 23:25, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree that Pontoon should be a separate article. A good starting point for info is the Wizard of Odds. Don't worry about messing anything up; if that happens, someone else will fix it. You learn by doing, so go for it! -MichaelBluejay 06:01, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Linking my website

I am interested in linking my website anteupchips.com to your website. I am trying to sell gaming supplies. You may email me at shelly6212002@yahoo.com Thank you Michelle Curtice 12.75.19.1 12:30, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Please read the rules. You cannot do this. --Dacium 00:44, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Card Counting

The subject of card counting is not covered in the blackjack article. I would like to add a section introducing the subject, and will remain general (not favoring any individual system).

Has this been done in the past and removed, or would it be welcome?

Mbbradford 20:38, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

There is an article on Card counting, but yes, the subject should be included here, but with a link to the main article. You might also do some editing over at the main article, because it still needs some cleaning up. Rray 22:45, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

The reference to card counting in the rules section seems flawed. The page says "although this reduced payout has generally been restricted to single-deck games where card counting would otherwise be a viable strategy, the move was decried by longtime blackjack players." The trouble is that card counting doesn't work in single-deck games, because the deck is shuffled after each hand in single-deck games. -DelRayVA 2 January 2007

[edit] Favorable Conditions?

The article states "Under the most favorable conditions (single deck, downtown Las Vegas rules)". I believe that actually Las Vegas Strip rules are more favorable for players than the downtown Las Vegas standard.

No, not even close. Also, please sign your Discussion by using the four tildes. Thanks! -MichaelBluejay 08:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Remove all the UK Regulations Stuff ?

Almost every country has laws governing how blackjack plays. Because most casinos are so big most casinos have there own whole acts, I know this is true in Australia and alot of other countries. If we let the UK stuff in we really need to let everything in. Maybe there should be a seperate article for UK laws and any countries that get popular. The huge paragraph in the rules section in particular really drags the article down. It is meant to be the general rules of the game, not the rules according to UK law or any other countries law.--155.144.251.120 05:22, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I like the suggestion about moving the information to a separate article. Maybe something like Blackjack regulation by country? Jeff Silvers 09:08, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps simply a page called Blackjack regulation. This article is getting out of hand otherwise. Also there are to many examples in many sections where only generaly descriptions have a place here. Also there is a large amount of 'filler'. For example I don't think I have seen such a bigger section to descripe something as trivial as Insurance wager. Also section on using other peoples hands for profit (i originally wrote most of it!) is just filler. Dacium 10:12, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Using other players for extra profit

This relies on a thing called "backline betting". If this is not allowed, then you can't use the information in this section. Many European and Australian casinos allow up to three bets per box. I'm sure that this would be covered in one of the main blackjack theory books; I haven't played in years and I can't find my texts. Can someone with say Snyder or Uston look up this keyword and find a reference? As an example, this thread discusses the strategy for splitting when you have a large bet and a small bet on the same hand. In effect, for the cost of the small bet, you can make all defensive splitting plays. Like turning a terrible 16 v 10 play into a not so bad two hands of 8 verses 10. --Mike Van Emmerik 23:14, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I think you have misunderstood the section completely. It isn't talking about backline betting nor playing different with different sized bets out. Its talking about getting players to buy bad hands and buying good hands from them. Nothing to do with back betting. What you are talking about (back betting your own bet with a much larger back bet so that you can move the large amount to a single card when favourable) is most definately illegal. Most laws state that a back better has to not be you and not be colluding with you to play the game, nor should you be associated. I don't know the decrease in house edge that would be obtained from implementing it, but it surely wouldn't be enough to remove the house edge.--155.144.251.120 22:00, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stuff that is missing

What about five card tricks? I don't know the ins and outs of the game, but if you get five cards dealt that equal, or are under, 21, you win. I can't believe this was a featured article when this piece of info is missed. -- Boothman /tɔːk/ 17:51, 10 January 2007 (UTC).

This rule is referred to as "5 Card Charlie". It is not usually offered in major casinos, but it does exist and so it should have a description somewhere. The term "Charlie" was described in the article until the enthusiastic editing done on Jan 6. Mikepelley 23:35, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
5 card charlie is not part of blackjack, it is Spanish 21 rules.--155.144.251.120 05:28, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
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