Talk:Black triangles

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[edit] Misc. comments

This article should probably state what "ULM" and "RPV" means. — Timwi 21:06, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC) Can someone categorically state when the first FT was reported? Is there an archive which catalogued the first proper Flying Triangle sighting?

pictures? - Omegatron 19:38, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Delete "September 11" editorializing

The text asserts that flying black triangles pose new "security implications...after the World Trade Center attack of September 11, 2001." But do they, really? It's somewhat hard to see how the security implications of UFOs are changed by a hijacking attack carried out by earthlings armed with low-tech weapons. The paragraph in question doesn't add much to the piece, but it certainly detracts from it by casually broaching an unrelated subject (post-9/11 hysteria).

So remove it.  :-) - Omegatron 22:57, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)


actualy that bit seems to have been lifted from the NIDS survey of black triangles.

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/flying_triangle_040902.html cites it thus

"Rather, it is consistent with (a) the routine and open deployment of an unacknowledged advanced DoD aircraft or (b) the routine and open deployment of an aircraft owned and operated by non-DoD personnel, suggests the NIDS study.

“The implications of the latter possibility are disturbing, especially during the post 9/11 era when the United States airspace is extremely heavily guarded and monitored," the NIDS study explains. "In support of option (a), there is much greater need for surveillance in the United States in the post 9/11 era and it is certainly conceivable that deployment of low altitude surveillance platforms is routine and open.”"

of course it could stand to be clarified.

[edit] Phoenix Lights

Does any one remember the pheonix lights? there were 7 lights in a boomerang shape floating above arizona/new mexico in 1999 i think. but it seem as if no one really remembers this event. it moved silently, which made it seem likely to be the same, but no mention on it yet. if you have more info post.

Hopefully I granted everyones wish. I added info on the Phoenix Lights and found some images of black triangles to add to the article. I'm a UFO buff myself, but I veiw everything with an open mind and a bit of scepticism. I tried to write this as "neutrally" as possible. SkeezerPumba 22:49, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Why wouldn't an RPV be able to hover? I can go to a hobby shop right now and get a radio-controlled toy helicopter that can hover, and I'm just a civilian. Why couldn't engineers with sufficient funding build a jet-powered VTOL RPV?

Why bother? First off you need to remember there were several different "Phoenix Lights", with different properties. Two were most certainly a formation of aircraft. A third (and I believe more IIRC) were almost certainly flares. The UFO supporters have used the confusion between these separate events to make it sound like all of the events were similar, and therefore had properties as a whole that could not be explained.
The two "V formation" events were most certainly a formation of small aircraft. This sort of UFO is extremely easy to arrange by even novice pilots. Basically you fly into formation with only the anti-collision light turned on, assuming it is on top (which it normally is for small aircraft) and therefore invisible on the ground. Then, on command over the radio, you all turn on your landing lights. Presto, one "massive UFO". Since the human eye is basically useless at estimating anything at long distances and in dark conditions, at night it is essentially impossible to guess the size or distance of the "object", and different witnesses will give greatly differing accounts -- until they meet, at which point the stories start to merge. Let's not forget that one kid actually got a telescope on these things, and could clearly see they were planes.
The second type of event does appear to be of flares. They were in the right place, look right (they dropped flares at Base Borden every so often near my parents place as a kid), and are distributed through the air correctly. These are the ones you see on the main video tape they show on TV.
Because the flare events and aircraft events were so different looking, if you don't separate the two then it all seems so impossible. The flares seemed to suggest a long object hovering in the air, while the aircraft looked like a V moving slowly. Sure, if you try to come up with a single explanation for both events you'll have a hard time, but if you keep them separate it suddenly seems much less mysterious.
Maury 19:55, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Investigated this

I had investigated this matter while getting a $60,000 RV fixed. Got a pix of a UFO. Caught it as it was flying over a used car lot. Problem is that it is one of those "lights", which is a UFO w/o observable structure. Martial Law 10:16, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Had to take the RV to Phoenix, AZ. Martial Law 10:17, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] St.Petersburg sightings

In the introduction of the article, it's commented that there were a mass sighting over St.Petersburg in 1997. Why is there no other references, nor any subsection under 'reported sightings' about this incident?

Well, last I checked, there was more info about the St. Petersburg sighting at the Whyfiles site, (See external links). They've reorganized their website since my last visit, so you'll have to dig around for it. Unfortunately, the authors of the Whyfiles are very stingy about keeping any and all reports they've compiled exclusive to their website. Attempts to use their research for this Wiki article have caused them to protest and threaten legal action in the past, even if its paraphrased and referenced back to them. I tried to compromise with them when I put this article together, but they wanted everything taken down and afterward ignored my requests. I avoid them now, but they seem to have the only detailed info regarding the Russian sighting (if it's true or not), and don't want it repeated in detail here. SkeezerPumba 01:52, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
If it really was a mass sighting, there must be lots of other references than the whyfiles. While googling, I find references to the St. Petersburg Times, February 2, 1997. Unfortunately, they don't have that old editions publically available at www.sptimes.ru :-(

[edit] Similar to Lifter technology

Wow! This is obviously related to lifter technology! Maybe this an explanation for why the military has never officially shown any of its developments. ;) (The equilateral triangle is the most efficient shape).

[edit] TR-3A BS

Uggg, where does this crap come from? Some guy just shows up, claims to be an engineer from area 51, spouts a bunch of obviously bogus junk, and this gets reported to the wikipedia?! You can't modify gravity with magnetism. Period. It just doesn't work that way. If it did, your hard drive would be levitating (yes, that's a joke).

This whole section should be removed. Spurious storytelling with zero credibility or verifiability are not the sort of thing that should be in an encyclopedia! Should I just remove it?

Maury 20:02, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Not defending the claims of the "engineer from area 51" or anything in the article, but please see Magnetic levitation, quickly before you wonder where it is your hard drive flew off to while you were having dinner (yes, that's another joke). --T-dot 23:42, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps I'm just reading it incorrectly, but the passage seems to be suggesting that the magnetic force is directly effecting gravity itself. Specifically, negates Earth's gravitational forces on the mass of the vehicle by 89%. Ok, so perhaps you could suggest that this means that it's simply providing 89% of the lift needed, but it does not read that way. Worse, it's obviously not possible to countere the mass of the vehicle, but the weight, which suggests it was written (or spoken) by someone with an extremely limited knowledge of high-school physics. Then it continues with these wonderful figures, can maneuver on the spot, vertically and horizontally, at incredible speeds up to Mach 9, and climb to an altitude of 120,000 feet (36.6 km). Well not only do all of those numbers sound completely bogus (not bogus in "can't do that", but bogus as in "just picked them out of the air"), and of course one needs to explain how magnetism can be used for a sideways propulsive force...
Making matters even more fun, one needs to remember that the TR-3, or as it was oh-so-cleverly "disguised" by calling it "Tier 3", is now a publically known UAV, the RQ-3 Dark Star. There was a time when the TR-3 was a cause célèbre in the aviation and UFO worlds, and was the subject of constant speculation with ever-inflating capabilities. While the aviation world did not generally say it was a UFO-like device, they did claim it used all sorts of exotic propulsion systems with various Mach-whatever ratings.
I still think this section needs to be removed completely. It appears to be nothing more than the ramblings of some guy who wanted to get his 15 minutes of fame among the UFO crowd. This is most definitely NOT something that should be in the wiki. Does anyone out there disagree, or should I just go ahead and clip? Maury


The speech referred: http://www.ufomind.com/misc/1998/aug/d26-001.shtml - It does sound like this chap made it up and the went on to sell his book for more information on this thing he made up.

[edit] Saw a black triangle URBANA CHAMPAIGN ILLINOIS 61802 Read please:

A friend of mine and I were hanging out in the Urbana, IL area by Mchenry at around 10:00- 11:30 PM Thursday November 23rd 2006 at night and saw a black triangle object it looked more like a diamond with a tail coming out of one of the corners...Completly silent the lights were on each angle and it they were a red orange dim color. Again NO sound what so ever and it was cruising through the sky fairly quickly it took 10-15 seconds for us to see it and it dissapear..it sort of cloaked in and cloaked out

semiblocked@gmail.com -- email me if you have seen one somehwere in my area or at that time

Call MUFON. Cyberia23 07:37, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] May have seen one once

At the time while driving to LA at night me and a friend saw something like this. I had no idea what it was at the time. We were going about 80 mph though on I-5 so its hard to say. (Somewhere before Bakersfield I believe.) It looked like a spinning triangle (not very fast) with very bright lights. The lights were so bright in fact that is was hard to make out the shape initially, but also what made it so visible. I was just kind of hanging out maybe 50-100 feet up patrolling over the freeway and moving all over the place. We thougth about stopping; but at the time said that it was most likely was a remote contol helicopter or maybe some kind of light for farming maybe? We hadnt thought that it could be UFO really at the time. Wasnt until years later that I heard of the black triangle phenomenon and it was exactly what it looked like. Except it wasnt huge. If I were to guess it was 5 to 10 feet at most across. It was really odd how it was hanging out over the freeway so that is what I think made us think it was human in origin. I think the helicopter idea was because it was changing direction in ways not possible for a plane and would rapidly execute its turns but was not moving rapidly. I dont know it it was alien but it defineity looked just like the picure on the main page here. Except that lights were really bright. I am not signing in to post this because of the controverial nature of this topic LOL. But really these things are out there and I have no explanation for it. I wish we would have stopped to check it out instead of driving past.

[edit] Star Wars

In the original Star Wars Trilogy the Imperial Star Destroyers resemble Black Triangles69.148.16.43 21:20, 29 December 2006 (UTC)Bertman

They'd be "white" triangles. Cyberia23 22:20, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I've seen a black triangle!

I know these things exist because i've seen one in the mid 1990's, just exactly what they are though I'm not so sure. But the one I saw was huge about the size of a two storey house, very low down in the sky, black and triangular shape and moved extremely slowly without any noise. I felt very calm the whole time I and one other person was witnessing it but would love to know exactly what they are! YourPTR! 17:33, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

If it moved against the wind, call Gandalf right away! Opuscalgary 16:36, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV problems?

I added the NPOV tag. My problem with this article is that it seems to give far too much weight to the conspiracy theory and UFO stuff, both of which are, after all, basically fringe opinions, and I assume even more so among widely ACKNOWLEDGED experts in relevant fields, like aerospace engineers, astophysicists, psychologists, etc. Obviously a majority of UFOlogists (or whatever they're called) think they're on to something, otherwise they wouldn't be spending time studying them. The "other explanations" section seems especially biased. The "for some reason" seems like weasel words (unnecessarily editorializing about unlikeliness), as well as the "opens the door to almost any sort of speculation," as if the possiblity that people are mistaken is so bizarre that if that's possible, then ANYTHING is possible.

Also, what about this: "...an intense magnetic field that negates Earth's gravitational forces on the mass of the vehicle by 89%..." Even though it's not reported as fact but as what somebody was saying, should it really go without comment that this has absolutely nothing to do with real physics? Magnetic fields have nothing to do with gravity.

Anyway, I guess I'll do a little editing along these lines myself (trying not to go too far in the other direction), but I think the whole article could use a look, which is why I nominated it.Mycroft7 10:49, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

There, I made some changes, hopefully towards a more neutral tone and with more appropriate weight given to more skeptical views. I also changed the opening wording to make it clear that it is an article about the phenomenon of all these similar SIGHTINGS and not the actual AIRCRAFT, which may or may not even exist. I suppose it's obvious that I have a personal bias of finding the whole thing extremely dubious, but I think I mostly succeeded in staying neutral in my edits (except where the POV is presented as such). If you disagree and make significant changes along those lines, please explain yourself here so maybe we can come to a consensus instead of engaging in an edit war.

Anyway, it still could use more attention and more thorough looking into various different (and sourced, ideally) explanations, including psychological ones, of which I have little experience and don't know where to research. (I suspect studies of mob behaviors might prove relevant and educational, but that's just a guess. ;-)) Also, a few things could REALLY use sources, like the theory about "stealth blimps." I called it a "sometimes-voiced theory" to be as vague and neutral as possible, but I think it would be much more encylopedic if we knew, say, whose theory it originally was, and where he got his wild ideas about blimps. Mycroft7 13:00, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Language of observers - running lights

Do many or most observers see running lights? I'm definitely not a UFO enthusiast but I think it's important to establish that distinction. Bumhoolery 09:17, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] My husband and I saw a Black Triangle in the spring of 1983

My husband and I saw a Black Triangle in the spring of 1983. We were driving after midnight (around 2 a.m.) southbound on Missouri Highway 63. Midway between Columbia, MO and Jefferson City (around Ashland, MO), we saw what we first thought were an airplane's landing lights. (There was a very small airport nearby.) As we approached the lights, we saw the Black triangle. The triangle moved VERY slowly and almost seemed to hover at a very low altitude (200 -500 feet). It was a VERY large Isosceles triangle (two sides larger than the base). The triangle had a red globe in the center and was outlined with small light blue lights with brighter white lights on each corner of the triangle. It was very dark, so we could not see the detail of the body other than the lights. We drove under the Black Triangle as it crossed over the highway. The Black Triangle easily covered all 4 lanes of the highway and then some. We slowed down to less than 40 mph and rolled down the windows to get a better look and listen. (It would have been unsafe to come to a complete stop on the highway.) The Black Triangle made no sound at all. It also did not generate any wind below it. It was NOT a helicopter (it made no noise, was way too large, and moved very smoothly). It was NOT an airplane as it moved much too slowly and made no noise. The small landing strip nearby could not have accomodated an aircraft that large. After it crossed the highway, it was not visible to follow. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.126.65.196 (talk) 02:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] I see them

I see these "black triangles" on a regular basis. During the summer and early fall, the prevailing wind is such that airplanes coming in for a landing at the local airport approach my apartment from the south, then turn to the east when they're on line with the runway. The three white lights are the wing and nose landing lights (when they're pointed right at you, they're insanely bright), and the central red light is the lower hazard-warning light. There's usually a temperature inversion that keeps the engine noise from reaching the ground, and those airplanes make an absurdly sharp turn to final -- if I hadn't seen them making that maneuver in daylight, I wouldn't believe it was possible. --67.185.172.158 04:15, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nuclear Propulsion on Aircrafts

About this part of the artical:

Also, if a conventional nuclear reactor is used, it would have to be designed in an unconventional and otherwise unheard of way: the reactor would need bulky shielding, and the heat produced would have to be converted into electricity to run the coils that produce the magnetic field used to levitate the aircraft, making all the needed machinery probably too heavy for flight.

The USSR did succesfully test an aircraft equipt with an (operational) nuclear reactor on board in the 60s (see Tupolev Tu-119), therefor, this isn't all that unlikely and thus this part might need some editing. Crownsteler 14:34, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

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