Talk:Black people

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This article is a frequent source of heated debate. Please try to keep a cool head when commenting here.

This article was nominated for deletion on 2007-03-18. The result of the discussion was Speedy keep.

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	To-do list for Black people:	edit  · history  · watch  · refresh
Remove original research Find sources and references to substantiate existing material that is salvagable Show a multi dimensional view of Black people across the world, not a Pan-American experience identify a list of objections and resolve them and move on. show constructive plurality which adds to the content. Simplify and be realistic that a pure solution for a complex social construction is impossible. Do not reinvent the wheel and restart debates which have in the history of this article never been solved.
Priority 2

Archives 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15

Contents 1 ???? 1.1 PROPOSAL! 2 Rushton 3 Incivility 4 Rushton Quote 5 Black People = American Topic 6 DO NOT REVERT TAGS 7 Speedy undeletion 8 Thats up to the readers 9 Make your vote 10 DrV 11 ummmm, 2 things 12 Old theories 13 NOT HAPPY WITH IMAGE GALLERY! 14 I SEE IT DIFFERENTLY!!! 14.1 Sub-Saharan Africa debate 15 Map 15.1 Parts taken from the US Census website[2] 16 Sub-saharan africa debate

[edit] ????

Why is this article titled black people, when wikipedia redirects a search of "white people" to the article "Caucasian People." I believe that this article should be renamed to "African American People," or "Caucasian People" should be renamed to "White People"

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Editingisbad (talk • contribs) 20:09, 14 March 2007 (UTC).

Sure, but that would pose as a problem for Jamaicans, Afro-Caribs, Afr-Brazilians, Haitians and everyone else not African AMERICAN.

Just as the anonymous comment above mine states, Black People are not the same as African Americans. African Americans must live in America. Black people do not have to. Many Americans make this mistake, being to PC in my opinion. Also, the Caucasian people article does not cover White people. It mostly covers people from the Caucasus area, as thhat is what Caucasian means in pretty much every country but the good old USA.ɱўɭĩє^{What did I do}_wrong 00:50, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] PROPOSAL!

My thoughts and suggestions are as follows; I question the whole subject as not having WPOV or NPOV in encyclopedic terms. I conclude that the subject "Black people" is too broad a term, and is actually only an observation, and a subjective one at that, made by some people to describe or to categorize as they see fit. It can never be NPOV, not as it is now. Yet, if the subject/title would be "Blacks in the Americas" or some form thereof and which can include topics such as;

• • SLAVERY
  • LATIN AMERICA AND THE CARIBBEAN
  • EARLY IMMIGRATION AND SLAVERY
  • BLACK MUSLIMS
  • AFRICAN-AMERICANS
  • Iberian Blacks
  • Beginnings of the African Slave Trade
  • Conditions of Slavery
  • Volume of Immigration
  • Blacks in Colonial Society
  • The Free Blacks
  • The Campaign Against the Slave Trade
  • Abolition of the Slave Trade
  • The Abolition of Slavery
  • Brazil: suffered a long internal struggle over abolition and was the last Latin American country to adopt it.
  • Prejudice Against Blacks or Racism
  • Assimilation of Black Minorities
  • Regional Differences
  • Cultural Modifications
  • Religious Practices
  • Black Literature
  • POLITICS
  • Resistance: as Blacks resisted enslavement from the time of capture in Africa but, outnumbered by whites, North American slaves were less likely than Brazilian or Caribbean ones to engage in massive rebellions. Africans in North America typically underwent 'seasoning' in the West Indies and a 'breaking' process on the mainland, etc.

• • Other headings can include;
    • THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION AND BLACK REBELLIONS
    • SEMI-FREE BLACKS
    • ABOLITIONIST MOVEMENT
    • GROWING ACTIVISM
    • CIVIL WAR
    • RECONSTRUCTION AND URBAN MIGRATION
    • GROWING SELF-AWARENESS
    • BLACK CULTURE IN THE EARLY 20TH CENTURY
    • WORLD WAR I
    • THE HARLEM RENAISSANCE.

And many more topics/subtopics that have to do with valuable contributions/inventions, influence, and oppression that Black People are known for, and have persevered under great injustices, and have a rich and diverse history. We can have other pages connecting to any page(s) that have any of these and other titles listed here. Perhaps disambiguation pages too? This is just my suggestion (and not in any particular order as expressed here) that I feel may alleviate the constant bickering and do away with the many different points of view, edit wars, heated discussions, and have a better WPOV, etc. Just a thought.

I know this is long, and it may be encyclopedic in some areas on this page. Or even ignored altogether. You may think I'm a lunatic, and you may be correct. You may think I'm ignorant of the content that already exists, which can be absolutely correct. But I think this project as it is is not going to work on this site as note worthy, encyclopedic, etc. Heck, it can be put with Genetics, Race, Human Beings, or whatever. Please, just not "Black people" as this will always be more controversial than any of the topics I've suggested, and possibly all can be included an it's own article as I suggested in the beginning of this diatribe Blacks in the Americas just not Black people! forgive me, I think this article, as it is, is embarrassing, stupid, too controversial and can only have individual POV in this context. --Jeeny 20:37, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

An enormous part of the layout you have here is dedicated to African Americans, and as such is probably alread covered in other articles. There is an article on African Americans. This article is on black people as a whole, not black people in America. Yes, you would cover some non-American blacks with your sections on Black Muslims and on The Caribbean, etc. I understand that you think the article is POV, stupid, and controversial, because for the most part it is. It needs a huge amount of work, a near complete rewrite, and it's much too brief for the huge subject it covers. But there's already and article on blacks in America. ɱўɭĩє^{What did I do}_wrong 00:50, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rushton

why is this guy quoted in the article. He has been accused of being a racist, why does his opinion count. Muntuwandi 21:59, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Scientific racism has had a huge influence on how black identity has historically been constructed and what it has come to mean and how black people are treated in everyday life, so even if Rushton were a racist (which I don’t think he is) the reader to have a complete understanding of the topic needs to know more than just all the Afrocentric and black views quoted in the article (most black kids hear that on the street growing up, they don't come to encyclopedia's to hear that), but the contemporary “racist” perspective on who is considered black, and from that perspective Rushton is as influential and scholarly as they come. The only reason he is considered racist is because he’s assembled serious data showing black men have larger penises than white men who have larger penises than oriental men. But his data comes from the World Health Organization and is is part of a serious sociobiological theory and Rushton has been defended by very eminent scientists.

Harvard biologist E.O. Wilson (one of the two cofounders of r/K selection theory) states "I think Phil is an honest and capable researcher ... The basic reasoning by Rushton is solid evolutionary reasoning; that is it's logically sound. If he had seen some apparent geographic variation for a non-human species-a species of sparrow or sparrow hawk, for example-no one would have batted an eye."^[1]

Rushton is an extremely credible source because he’s spent the last 3 decades studying black people, writing articles about black people in peer reviewed academic journals, and teaching a course on race. I think he’s reliable enough to give a 1 sentence definition of who a black person is. He is a professor of psychology at the University of Western Ontario, London, Ontario, Canada, holds two doctorates from the University of London (Ph.D. and D.Sc) and is a Fellow of the John Simon Guggenheim Foundation, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, and the American, British, and Canadian Psychological Associations. He is also a member of the Behavior Genetics Association, the Human Behavior and Evolution Society, and the Society for Neuroscience. Rushton has published six books and nearly 200 articles. In 1992 the Institute for Scientific Information ranked him the 22nd most published psychologist and the 11th most cited. Professor Rushton is listed in Who's Who in Science and Technology, Who's Who in International Authors, and Who's Who in Canada. Iseebias

some people can be racist all their lives. In fact old habbits die hard. Muntuwandi 23:19, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I think known racist should be reduced in content as the base for their info is a racist one, even if content sometimes doesnt violate. Its like why would Jews quote any Nazi, even if the statement was fair. Lets find someone else and stop advertising ,celebrating, validating these kind of people.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 00:13, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

A section about Arabs is fine. It is infact quite relevant if it is about Yemenis etc (some of whom are black). However, as the sub-section is currently about how Arabs view blacks, spiced with ignorancies such as "hybridized blacks", I have removed it. Quote Rushton, but only if it is relevant. Not merely as another attemt to push fringe POV. --Ezeu 00:47, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

We need more freaking quotes from Rushton to keep the article balanced. 90% of the quotes are from FREAKING AFROCENTRICS with a 9th grade education which doesn't surprise since the talk page is full of Afrocentic shit. And what fring POV was Rushton pushing? And Rushton never said Ethiopians were hybridized but anyone with an IQ over 50 knows they are. Bernard Lewis in his landmark book about slavery in the middle east said exactly the same thing as Rushton said about how the Arabs viewed the blacks. That's probably where Rushton got it Christmasgirl

I find it funny go to White people or Jews do you see them adding Afrocentrics to bring balance? So y do we need racist Eurocentrics to bring balance. last time i checked it was called Black people, i am sure they can speak with enough diversity to rep balance--dont u?--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 01:05, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Because White people were the ones who decided to call themselves White. Jewish decided to call themselves Jewish. It was White people who decided to call some people black so we need to hear more from white on people on what they mean by the term. Also, Afrocentics have no power over white people so it doesn't matter what Afrocentrics think about white people. But it matters lots what white people think about black people because it determines where black people live, work, and their standard of living. Afrocentrics belong in the Africoid article cause they made that shit up Christmasgirl

I cannot possibly reply properly to the above message without violating all of Wikipedia's civility policies. This is the worst piece of racist crap I have seen on this page so far, and if it is coming from a black person, then fuck us. I really hope it represents juvenile ignorance and not the thoughts of an educated person. --Ezeu 01:39, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Well what do you expect this article is about racism. Black is a racist slur. No different from the N word in fact the literal translation of Black is the N word. No self-respecting African would call themselves black. And I've been to Africa so you better pay attention to what I got to say. And no I'm not African, I'm one of those hybridized people you think don't exist Christmasgirl

I am sorry if you have an identity crisis, but perhaps you should deal with it outside the scope of Wikipedia. Whether you like it or not, and despite your belief that it is evidence of self-loathing, most people of African ancestry (especially those in your home country) refer to themselves as black. --Ezeu 02:25, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a FREAKING identiy crisis I'm the most secure chick you've been lucky enough to meet. Sure African ancestry people call themselves black but it's because of racism they've been brainwashed into doing that. No one would choose to call themselves black on their own, as it's the color of the devil, the color of evil, the color of death. All the great religions have said this. Why do you think Afrocentrics are always trying to push that the East Indians, the tamils, the Australian aboriginals were black. They feel it's unfair that they got stuck with the black label and are pissed that other dark people escaped it. That's why this article will always be controversial. Me I don't care because I'm half Asian (notice I didn't call myself yellow), half White (that I will call myself because it's the color of purity)Christmasgirl +

Thanks, I needed the comic relief. Now I can sleep soundly. --Ezeu 02:45, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

i can almost hear the screaming and shoutingMuntuwandi 04:17, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Well FREAKING HELL the talk page was nice and quiet until you started talking about FREAKING RACISM!!!!!!!!!!!!! By the way the Who is a Jew? article has a whole FREAKING section about how anti-Semites defined Jewish people. How come they're mature enough to handle FREAKING REALITY and this place has 15 archived talk pages of FULL of FREAKING COMPLAINING!!!!!!!!!!!! Christmasgirl

I agree with Muntuwandi, but i will do one better, i am picture them killing one another in a ring or something. 2 b fair to both. I agree with Christmas girl (on one point), nobody in their right historical mind would refer to themseleves as black, no people in history have done this. They have been called Black, they either accept it or reject it. No one in Africa ever said "we is blacks" the said "we are Nubian" We are Nigerian or Wolof or Fulani. However Afro centric r not to blame for race lumping. Afrocentrics have done a lot for reforming African identity many dont use the word black. see Kimani Nehusi and Karenga. I do find it amazing however that anyone from anywhere from any identify can take all kinds of shots at the poor Negro. I challenge anyone 2 try that on jew, u cant even breath wrong if you edit there. Their is no group more oppressed than Africans i tell u that. Only 2 race color identify, everyone else has rejected these color labels save the Negro, sorry the Black.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 14:41, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

The decision to call black was one of necessity to distinguish between the two. Wherever the white man went, he was also given a name. In east africa it was muzungu. the use of the term black was not forced upon, it was more common sense. But at the time there were no negative stereotypes to attach to the word.Muntuwandi 14:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

BLACK IDENTITY WAS INVENTED BY RACISTS WHO CALLED THEMSELVES WHITE FOR PURITY AND AFRICANS BLACK FOR WICKEDNESS, DIRT, AND EVIL. ALL THE SLAVERY BOOKS SAY THIS!!!!!!!! And even though Jewish people named themselves the Who is a Jew? article contains a whole FREAKING section on anti-semitism and it got so big it was turned into a whole FREAKING ARTICLE. Christmasgirl

Please stop swearing and shouting. Maintain calm. There is no good evidence that the term black was chosen for derogatory meaning, but there is, of course evidence that the symbolism of black/white and dark/light became interwoven with it. Lots of ancient commentators, including the Egyptians and the Greeks considered "excessive" paleness not to be so-called purity but to be just as unappealing as excessive darkness. Paul B 15:08, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Muntu, it doesnt matter what a disempowered people call white people, no where is the opinions of African the globall standard for identity, if you dont have power to make it law and process then who care what white were called. We love black because we were trained to love it. I never heard anyone call themselves black in Ethiopia, or NIgeria. It was only in the west that people say "I am black". what we say is we r African. Black means we r not white, we r not them, we r the opposite of purity. Still i fail to see y Negro is worst than black. One is spanish one is English. And AA got sold this lie. Y? X said you r African American. That makes sense as Shahad said "there is no Blackia or Blackistan" there is also no history of us calling ourselves black prior to 500 yrs ago.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 15:10, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Some examples of Greek writings on excessive (in their view) paleness:

Polemon, Physiognomica, 8.11-1:

Blond [CANQH=] and whitish [U(PO/LEUKOS] hair, like that of Scythians signifies stupidity [SKAIO/THTA], evilness [KAKO/THTA], savagery [A)GRIO/THTA]

Pseudo-Aristotle, Physiognomica:

The people whose eyes are light blue-grey [GLAUKOI/] or white [LEUKOI/] are cowards [DEILOI/]

Paul B 15:21, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually the Arab slave traders said "we are neither unbaked dough or bunt crust but cooked just right". Christmasgirl

But does anyone ever wonder why first White Americans decided to go all the way to Africa to get their slaves when they had a huge population of Native Americans they could have enslaved? Well there were lots of reasons of course, but one of the biggest according to the history books was the negative attitude the Europeans had towards the color black. They defined black as evil, wicked, soiled, deeply stained by dirt. They couldn't bring themselves to enslaves the people they saw as red as red was considered a pretty color, hence they went all the way to what they called black Africa to get slaves over and over again wasting huge amounts of time and effort when they could have just used Native Americans as slaves who were already in the Americas anyway. That's how much they hated the color black Christmasgirl

Native Americans WHERE used as slaves by the first white Americans (who came from Europe) butthey died too quickly because of the new diseases brought from Europe, therefore not suitable for the type of work the new Americans needed. African's where considered stronger, healthier and a better investment in the long haul (they did not have the same vulerablities to diseases.) Read up more about Georgraphy, History AND Science, etc. (not other's opinions or commentaries. ::I would like to know where you live in the world, and what is your educational background, if any. Also, you seem to change your "ethnicity" combination often to suit your agenda, whatever that is I have no idea. I do believe you are white (more than 50%, at least more than any other supposed "race" you've stated. Scientifically, there is only ONE race, the Human Race. Social Biology is another word for eugenics (not a real science), this is a very racist THEORY about the different "races" and there strenghts/weaknesses. Much like when Hitler used it to push his evil agenda. I can go on and on, but there is no reasoning with you. Jeeny 17:01, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I've said all along that I'm half Asian, half White but I've been all over the world. North East Asian actually so I'm white as ghost in color. Never understood why they called us yellow. And yes Jeeney a lot of the stuff you said is true. I never said color was the only reason nor did I say it was the primary reason. But it was one of the reasons at least according to the history books I've read. I may be a little rough around the edges but I seldom get my facts wrong. It's funny that you think I'm caucasian because I'm widely feared in the white people article because I corrected their Eurocentricism. In fact users there were so shell shocked by my edit that they threatened to block me. It's was the most shocking edit they had ever seen. Problem with me is I'm brutally honest. No sugar coating from me baby. I'm a straight shooter. People start out hating me but always end up respecting me. Christmasgirl

Okay, about our heredity. :) Facts about the subject are more important, right. Anyway, there were many reasons Native Americans where not used in the way Africans were used for slavery. But they sure tried and would have prefered it as African slaves where much more expensive. Europeans did use Native Americans right along side the Africans though. The owner's of the lands didn't like the fact that Natives could escape too easily, and they feared rebellion more so, as the Natives could run off into the wilderness and come back and fight. So, eventually it was worth the extra cost and the safety of their lands.

Also, Native Americans used slaves long before any "white" man came to America. The slaves would be captives of warring tribes, among other reasons. Another irony is that when Europeans first used Africans to work their new lands, they were considered indentured servants, and could be freed after a certain amount of time. But then the racial rationalization took over them (greed, ignorance, etc), and they were afraid that Africans would war with them, and didn't want them to mix with the so-called superior whites. They took advantage of taking them from their homelands, and different parts of Africa so the slaves could not communicate with each other as lauguage varied among African tribes. They feared escape plans being made and other such fears the white man had.

It's so complicated the more I type, leads me into another thought and facts are of a very complex nature of the first slaves (not allowing them to read, threats, beatings, etc). Eventually though, yes, whites did justify their slavery of African blacks because they thought them inferior, because of religion reasons (were thought of savages, etc), also their perceived notions that Africans where next to apes, therefore, not true humans (so they could "morally" use slaves like animals). All nations used slavery, from the beginning of times, but nothing like the History of African slavery in the US. Where actual LAWS where made to keep them as less than human for thier own greed,etc. Ugly, ugly ugly. :/ Jeeny 18:03, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Of course other Africans were also involved in selling Africans as slaves. Ugly, ugly ugly. Lukas19 15:26, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

A lot of the socalled Africans who were involved in selling Africans into slavery were extremely hybridized with Arab blood. This tendency to say Blacks themselves were responsible for slavery further victimize Black people. Authentic Black slave traders were exceedingly rare. Iseebias

That's just your opinion. [1] And if you read History of slavery, you'll see that slavery wasnt exclusive to Africans. So, such victimization is redundant anyways. Lukas19 20:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

In 1620 ,when the european pilgrims first landed on plymouth rock of the 102 people, 50 died during the first winter from various diseases. A year earlier in 1619 the first africans had landed in virginia. They were not slaves but indentured servants. There must have been great amazement that the africans were not easily succumbing to the various diseases of the new world. millenia of battling malaria and other jungle illnesses made the africans more resistant. They were already good farmers, fishermen and hunters[2]. They knew how to navigate themselves through difficult jungle terrains as many escaped to form communities in the busheg columbian communtity. because of the skills of the africans, the europeans must have sensed a great economic opportunity.Muntuwandi 22:54, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Incivility

I fully appreciate the concept of free speech, but I do not understand why we have to contend with unnecessarily offensive language that is clearly not aimed at improving the article. Even talk pages can be vandalised.Muntuwandi 15:59, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

And your complaining about me using the FR word (now that's offensive too?) which I've already stopped using does what to improve the article? It seems like everytime us editors are starting to get along you create another controversy. Speaking of controversy the only contribution you've ever made to this article (population section) was controversial. But lucky for the article, you create most of your controversies on the talk page Christmasgirl

see Removing uncivil comments- If comments are offensive, wikipedia policy allows for them to be removed, even on talk pages.Muntuwandi 16:14, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Everything is offensive to you which is why you keep draining our energy with one pointless talk page controversy after another. Christmasgirl

And please stop removing comments from the talk page. Ezeu is an admin and he told you not to do this. Christmasgirl

Please be considerate and helpful by signing your posts using four tildes, instead of three. You can also use the button at the top of the page if you have problems. It helps to follow the coversation by knowing what is new or old. Thank you. Jeeny 04:51, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rushton Quote

"Although the Koran stated that there were no superior and inferior races and therefore no bar to racial intermarriage, in practice this pious doctrine was disregarded. Arabs did not want their daughters to marry even hybridized blacks. The Ethiopians were the most respected, the "Zanj" (Bantu and other Negroid tribes from East and West Africa south of the Sahara) the least respected, with Nubians occupying an intermediate position"

The Rushton quote is definitely wrong. Africa is huge. It is therefore for exemple very ulikely that Arabs in Egypt would have known about the situation in West Africa. Or that they would have been able to differentiate Ethiopians from Western Africans(In order to avoid intermarriage, etc.). I am from Western Africa. And we had different waves of Arab immigration. And some deffinitely mixed with the local population(Spread of Islam, etc.). Besides, (Christian&Jewish) Ethiopians are often considered as absoulte ennemies of the Arab World. Just ask the Somalis, who are very close to the Jemenites and who can definitely be considered as part of the Arab World, even though they look black.(Afro-German)(87.176.254.80 17:26, 13 March 2007 (UTC)).

Well if Rushton is wrong than Bernard Lewis the foremost scholar on the Arab slave trade of Africans is wrong because Lewis says the same. Also Halaqah who I respect for his knowledge of African/Arab history said the quote is right on the mark. But I'm not trying to take sides on whether the Arab section should stay or go I'm just saying Bernard Lewis says the same Christmasgirl

Just go to Egypt, Algeria, Marocco and so on. It is obvious that a sensitive part of the population has African descent. But if you have like 10-20% looking very "African"-even in remote places-, then it is likely that the rest of the population has also a very high likelyhood to have some African ancestrors.(87.176.254.80 17:42, 13 March 2007 (UTC)).

Rushton never said there was no interbreeding. All he said was that the Arabs didn't want it for their daughters. But the fact that he mentions hybridized blacks prove your point. There was interbreeding between the blacks and the Arabs. Lots of it. Christmasgirl

It just has nothing to do with Skin Colour. Regionally, in Sudan and elsewhere, Arabs and Black Africans look extremely similar. But they clearly differentiate themselves by culture and so on. So Arab slave trade is true. But if somebody is very Black but is extremely well integrated in the Arab society, he might very well marry whoever he wants. => Rushton speaks of "colour" where the key to understanding the problems is culture. (87.176.254.80 17:54, 13 March 2007 (UTC)).

See this where the confusion comes in with the word black. Some people use it to mean dark skin, but Rushton & Bernard Lewis use it to mean sub-Saharan African ancestry. So you can have people who are dark skinned pure Arabs from Southern Arabia who are much darker than say the Khoisan but only the Khoisan would be considered black cause he's sub-Saharan. But the people who define black by color would consider the pure Southern Arab to be blacker Christmasgirl

Rushton is a typical white arrogant man, he is imposing his own understanding and coming up with sense according to his racism. It is more than color in Sudan. Sometimes very dark people are "Arab" and their social ranking would far exceed a light skin guy like Cuba Gooding, but all of this is confusing to these racist so they just generalize and make all kinds of mistakes. Rushton is so ill informed he also seperates Zanj and Habesha, crazy the Zanj would be the Ethiopians..these kinds of mistakes show the quality of his knowledge he is a popular eurocentric with the same low quality academics as the worst of the Afrocentrics.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 18:16, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

But just so you know, Rushton is not talking about color. To White academics, black is just another word for African. And those ideas aren't Rushton. We should have quoted the original source, Arab scholar Bernard Lewis. Christmasgirl

All of them are heads of the Orientalismcrew. if you quote the devil or his son they basically say the same thing. J.D. Fage, all John Reader, al of them. God knows why African validate these people. u know what they are yet we prop them up, never does Diop (a valid academic) appear on their little pages.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 18:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

But just a few days ago you praised Rushton's quote in your edit summary[3]. So should I believe what you are saying today or what you are saying then? And how do you define the Zanj? For example you complained about Rushton separating Ethiopians from the Zanj but not about him separating Nubians from the Zanj. So I'm very curious what your definition of Zanj is. Christmasgirl

What was said was correct, however why he said it maybe for his racist agenda. the quote is in isolation to his other posion. When he draws a conclusion it is to suit his argument. But the statement is correct. I think we should quote someone else with a better perspective, see dispute on Zanj and the racism going on where some people on wiki dont like to be told. Rushton doesnt know what a Zanj is, sometimes i like these things because it shows his ignorance.Ethiopians would be Zanj.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 23:02, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I looked at the dispute at the Zanj article and the expert on Arab linguistic translation seems convinced that Ethiopians are not Zanj. Christmasgirl

Well then it proves my argument on the Zanj page that Zanj is not a generic term for all "blacks" but it also proves that Rushton doesnt understand the usage of the word. However in a nutshell the word is clearly not generic. That is the point, Zanj is not a general word it has a specific meaning just like Habasha.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 10:33, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Rushton never said the term was for "all" blacks; he sad the Arabs divided blacks into 3 main groups: Ethiopians, Nubians, and zanj Christmasgirl

Yet you know this and go and counter my work on Zanj, so clearly Zanj is not a Black generic term, it is specific like saying Habasha, or Ethiopian. People used Ethiopian to mean Africa, but it real meaning is specific, so you canot say Ethiopian means Ghana can u. wrk with me here not against my edits as i find it very dishonest.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 13:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Black People = American Topic

Americans have no knowledge about the cultural complexity outside their country.

Some of them might even go to Iraq and think the people there will speak Spanish, beaucause they look "Brown" and therefore must belong to the "Brown race" like the Mexicans, etc.

And because Americans lack this cultural knowledge, they tend to identify themselves by very primitive criterias like "Skin colour", etc.

Just look at the many awfull wars there were in Europe, and you will understand that it is totally crazy to put whites, blacks or others in one group just beacuse they somewhat look similar.

Now other countries, cultures, etc. also have many problems. But as a whole, this article does only make sense in the US.(87.176.254.80 17:35, 13 March 2007 (UTC)).

I totally agree. It's a POV article. One of the reasons color makes a difference in the US is the Bill of Rights for example. If it were not for this, blacks especially would still be very much oppressed today. The whole Bill of Rights, and many of the Ariticles of the Constition would have to change. Though Blacks want to keep their idenity as being "black" or African-American for many reasons. Black and whites are very preoccupied by race, even though things have changed since the 1960s, ignorance and bigotry is very strong here. I'm hoping things will changed very soon. With the Internet we have access to many other POVs, and cultures where we would not have had before, unless one was wealthy and could travel. Even then, there exists an ignorance for sure. Like I said, I'm hoping things will change soon. Let the people who are aware of the complexities speak up, and continue to challenge those with small minds. The Internet is one place to start. Free higher education would help too. Jeeny 18:48, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that User:87.176.254.80 has some great points. JJJamal 22:26, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

This is a very US-centric article, as far as POV. I believe this helps explain why biological/genetic concepts of "Black" are prioritized and social and political concepts are currently barely present. For example, the entire section on Arabs is written from a US POV —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jd2718 (talk • Forgot to sign Jd2718 23:18, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Then improve it!--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 23:45, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

This has been a very difficult article to work on, as rapid editing took place over the last few weeks without any clear plan, but with a clear consensus to push a biology-related POV. I was waiting for a version to stabilize, and when it did it was very far from where the article had been. I do not know how to improve this article without reconstructing it. It is permeated with US-centric and race obsessed assumptions. Jd2718 00:22, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Start by being specific about a specific statment and not just a general overview. also your tag is innocrrect it should b a worldview tag.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 00:27, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The article will never please everyone since the topic itself is controversial. Christmasgirl

A category of people "Black" as opposed to simply Ethiopian, Bantu, Khoisan, etc, arose not from simple contact between Africans and Europeans - such contact had occurred repeatedly in the past; not from internal identification in Africa - there's no evidence of an internal African identification based on skin color; but rather from European-African contact related specifically to colonization and the slave trade. Yet this article insistently puts forward a timeless notion of Blackness based on ancestry and biology, and assiduously avoids mention of oppression, economics, slavery. Look at our race article. Majority, reliable source POV has race as a social construct. Yet this article avoids explaining what that means. When I saw the discussion of Arabs, that was too much. The article treats "Black" as a genetic or biological or ancestry-related category. The view is popular, especially in the US, but is a minority POV among experts on race. Jd2718 17:46, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] DO NOT REVERT TAGS

If an editor feels a tag is valid, unless it is really stupid u shouldnt take it off. Allow the debate to back up the tag and then determine if the tag is valid. As i have asked the editor, is the tag the correct tag. Tags dont hurt anyone. the minute we start deleting tags we become dictators, tags should not be deleted and those posting the tags should also be quick to explain the tag, as i have asked the editor to do. Until it is resolved the tag stays. I was the one that added avoid the pan-Americanism, i have an issue with the term when it is exported to mean what Americans say it means. Is that what the issue is? I dont think the article is unbalanced, but allow the editor time to explain his views. there is no admin, no collection no matter how large that can out weigh the rules. wiki shouldnt b mob rule. allow the debate--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 01:46, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree the article is U.S. centric at all. The whole history of the term is based on European anthropologists not Americans. We have huge sections on what the term means in Latin America and South Africa. The U.S. may be mentioned a bit more because being black was a bigger deal in the U.S. than other countries so they made blackness into law. In other countries we're all just human beings so being black is less of an issue (and other countries don't always categorize people based on color terminology), and so they don't have as much to say about it. The article reflects the real world Christmasgirl

Makes no difference if you agree or disagree. All editors have equal weight and the process says they have a voice and are free to contribute, object add content, delete content in a sincere developmental manner. My opinion is Blackness is a US dominated or Western idea. Hence it has no encyclopedic value as a racial identifier. To use this lay term out of context is a problem as the term is not definable. It isnt used in African much, so your argument is very confusing since you keep reasserting this word to Zanj. So when a Fiji Island person reads it he doesnt know if it means him or not. This is a worldview issue. i am waiting for the editor to explain his tag, as i also disagree but believe a worldview tag would also be incorrect. however deleting tags isnt civil conduct.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 02:19, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The only encyclopedic value is to explain all the different ways the term is used. This will tend to have a Western bias because it's mostly Westerners who use the term. But there's not much use knowing how Africans use the term if they don't use it much. It is useful to know what terms Africans use to describe themselves and that could be added so that readers don't make the mistake of using the term "black" in Africa where it may be offensive Christmasgirl

[edit] Speedy undeletion

why nominate this article for deletion when it is pretty obvious the deletion will not go through. Muntuwandi 17:40, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thats up to the readers

well its up to the readers i actually think i did a good thing. well if the page isnt gonna be deleted then why worry? i think it is a strange page anyway. and i think it is wrong to point out black and white people. and i think the black people section is full of wrong facts and alot of racist facts.the msot strange thing is the massaj man,i mean does he really represent the black community?--Matrix17 18:07, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

There is no global black community. One of the topics that has been discussed is diversity among "black people". There is much cultural, genetic and lingustic diversity within Africa, in fact over 1800 languages are spoken. Outside of Africa blacks live all over the americas speaking dutch, french, spanish, portuguese, english and other creolized lingos. The idea of a black community is US centric. we should speedily undelete the article as it will just be waste of energy going through the debate. Muntuwandi 18:17, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

If you don't believe blacks form a single community, and the other guy doesn't believe blacks form a race, and if they obviously don't share the same language, culture, religion, appearance, experience, and identity, then why should they all share an article? Iseebias 19:00, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

make you say on the deletion page entry instead of here... their are already one saying it should strongly be deleted. so i am not in charge here. i still think i agree with the person writing that it is wrong to have this page.and we are all tired of this editing wars all the time--Matrix17 19:33, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

the dark skinned people of africa and their descendents numbering almost 1 billion, too many to form one single monolithic community(eg francophone and anglophone africa). but there are some shared characteristics. 1 chiefly darker skin and other phenotypes, with many exceptions. 2 A shared recent history. 3 Outside of africa one is likely to face discrimination from being dark skinned. 4 Even though cultures are different certain cultural elements are ubiquitous throughout africa and the new world(eg cornrows).

Blacks are not one community in the sense that one person can be representative of all, but at the moment they are enough of a group to be easily recognized and identified as a group.Muntuwandi 19:38, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Make your vote

make your vote on the deletion tag on the front page on Keep or Delete. Their is already one saying strongly deletion on this page because of the constant editing wars and strong opinions for deletion and not deletion here,their is no use to fight over it here. make your voice heard in the issue. i think this is a strongly deletion page to,i have also now voted for strong deletion due to the various racist toughts on this article like the vanuatu man ,whats that?>?..--Matrix17 19:41, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I had mentioned earlier that when society becomes colorblind, I would be the first to nominate this article for deletion, but we are still a long way from that. Yes there have been some strenouos edit wars. My opinion is this is because of the desire to incorporate complicated, extreme or exotic views. I very much favor scientific views over sociological opinion because science is more objective. So and so's opinion always has a motive. Whether it be cheikh anta diop or rushton. A scientific study whose results can be reproduced regardless of who is doing the study is more respectable. I earlier proposed restructuring and simplifying article because in its current state I can only make sense of the gallery. I will make a vote but i think it is a waste time because deleting this article will mean deleting all articles on ethnicity, white people, asian people etc. which i do not see happening.Muntuwandi 20:01, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Make your vocie heard on the deletion tag to the entry instead.i dont agree with you at all just want to point that out.--Matrix17 20:04, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] DrV

The AfD nomination was (permaturely) closed after a mere 4½ hours. I sent it to Deletion Review Wikipedia:Deletion_review#Black_people. Editors may care to comment. Jd2718 01:32, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ummmm, 2 things

1st - Why is there an article titled 'Black People'?? That is not very politically correct. 2nd - Hugo Chavez is not considered balck by anybody. Randomfrenchie 02:08, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Where is your comment regarding the existence of the "White People" article? I don't see your comments in that article's discussion page. Where is the request to delete the "White (People)" article in any event? --208.254.174.148 02:16, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Right here, where White people was closed with Speedy Keep. Along with similar articles for Asians, etc. etc. ⇒ SWATJester ^{On Belay!} 06:30, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Old theories

If an old hypothesis has now been discarded, is it necessary to mention it. For example carlton coon categorized the races. He believed that that the black race and white race evolved seperately over a million years. These theories have now been disproved. Is it thus necessary to mention these archaic theories. I think they just add to the spirit of animosity. I suggest we replace all old hypothesis with what mainstream science says. the old stuff can be placed in a more appropriate article or simply remain on the author's page.Muntuwandi 05:10, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I like your idea. The article on Race has sections on all of the old stuff. Just link to that article and be done with it. I really like the newer discoveries done with genetic traces that show, contrary to what Coon said, that we are all related, and that we can pretty well trace these connections out. I hope that more information will come out regarding the genetic histories of the peoples of Africa. P0M 05:59, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I recently read where geneticists actually found a mutation in the DNA that made skin white from the first Africans. I forget where I read that though, as I've been reading so many reference books, researching, etc. It's like it's been a job, or school. LOL. My brain is fried. I also read that there is a new theory that the first human was from Asia. This just after the "Out of Africa" information on human origins is basically well accepted all around. Except for the extreme racists, of course. That theory, or finding about the mutation is on my list to do more research on. Cheers. Jeeny 06:04, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I think old theories are important for their historical value to understand where the concept of black people came from. This isn't a science article so complaining that certain theories are outdated has nothing to do with the point of the article. This is an article about how people were defined by other people, where it all started, and how society is changing. Christmasgirl 06:17, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

If they are still important they can remain on the page of the author of those theories or a "history of race" page. For example when talking about the earth and globalization we no longer mention that people once thought the earth was flat.Muntuwandi 12:08, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

On the flat earth page they talk about people who thought the earth was flat. So on the black people page we talk about people who thought some people were black. Perhaps science will one day progress to the point where everyone agrees that race is not real and everyone agrees that the earth is not flat, but until then, we have these articles Christmasgirl 13:40, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Maybe this article would be a good place to talk, in an objective way, about the impact that "flat earthers" have had on people of the black [race]. IMHO, [race] is a kind of delusion but racism is real. What is easily provided with citations are records of people using "academic" discussions of [race] to put people down and keep them down——and that, in turn, explains lots about the group identity of black people. Rather than just repeating Rushton's "theorizing," it would be more powerful if we could say something like, "On 3 May 1989 the state board of education heard the arguments for defunding public libraries in school districts x, y, and z based on the words of Rushton, who said..." (That's a made-up example, of course, but you get the idea.) P0M 06:10, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

To me this article is simply a list of all the different ways black identity has been defined. The purpose of this article is to inform people what is meant by the term black when they see it in different contexts so when people see the term "black" used by academics who believe in race and study racial differences, it refers to people of predominantly sub-Saharan descent (recent), and when they see the term used by the U.S. government it refers to people who self-identity with their recent sub-Saharan ancestors, and when they saw the term used by the South African government it refered to people who had enough African ancestry to get a pencil stuck in their hair, when they see the term used by Afrocentrics it refers to people with tropical (or semi-tropical) ancestry of any kind and can even refer to people with tiny invisible degrees of African ancestry. It's useful for people to know that black has different meanings so that if someone is doing say a school paper criticising the theories of people like Rushton they don't make the mistake of using an Afrocentric definition of black to counter him or if they're doing a paper on Afrocentric theories, they realize that Afrocentrics have a much broader group of people in mind when they use the term black and this needs to be taken into account when reading and analyzing their work. If someone is in Latin America it's useful to know they sometimes require a higher degree of African ancestry to be considered black than is required in the U.S. and that one needs to adapt how they use ethnic terms to be sensitive their social conventions. Iseebias 13:34, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Maybe we could even put in a picture of a typical member of the "Black Irish" then? ;-)

P0M 22:31, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NOT HAPPY WITH IMAGE GALLERY!

This article is making out that ALL Indians are black. These are contentious claims when Indo-Aryans are usually classed as Caucasoid and are racially and even genetically more similar to Europeans. This Italian opera Singer Andrea Bocelli http://image.listen.com/img/356x237/0/2/4/4/504420_356x237.jpg Looks like a Punjabi. Should he be included in the `Marginal Blacks' Image gallery as well? He would be classed as white by most census definitions. Please write Tamil, Dravidian or South Indian School girls instead of contending that all South Asians are black, or better still, delete their images alltogether. Many Saudis look more Negroid than Indians, and they'd be classed as white in the US census. `Brown' is usually the preferred colour metaphor for Indians..—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.169.34.17 (talk • contribs) 11:12, 25 March 2007 (UTC).

• I agree. We need a more specific image and caption, ie of Siddi. --Ezeu 18:42, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

The Siddi are of African ancestry so they would not belong in the same section of the gallery as the Indians currently are Iseebias 19:41, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Most Indians, except of the Siddis, are not Black. South Indians are also usually considered Caucasoid. And South Indians are also genetically more similiar to Europeans than to Africans. But that dosent make North or South Indians in any term "White".

http://homepage1.nifty.com/miki/tyson-index.jpg this guy is Tamil, http://image1.indiaglitz.com/tamil/gallery/Actor/Vikram/vik111006_64.jpg he's also Tamil. here we have another South Indian or so called Dravidian http://image1.indiaglitz.com/malayalam/gallery/Actor/prithviraj/prit031006_8.jpg

But I guess 90% of the Punjabi male population looks more similiar to this guy http://tamilgfx.com/gallery/data/media/82/Siddarth34.jpg than to the 3 other guys I've posted.

But Ur right the preferred colour metaphor for Indians is Brown. Asian2duracell 20:55, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Most Punjabis are actually Indo-Aryans, resembling a Mediterranean Type like Nahwaz Sharif pictured here http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1030000/images/_1032134_nawaz150.jpg Like I said about Andrea Bocelli, he looks pretty brown to me and that's why I personally do not consider ALL Southern Europeans as `white' either. Off the subject, why is there a Nazi Swastika frequently appearing on the first image of this page?

Well most South Indians speak a Dravidian language, but still resembling the same Mediterranean type, like ur Punjabis. North Indians resemble South Indians more than any other ethnicity and vice-versa. Go to London and u will see what I'm talking about. I would consider most Europeans as White, even thug some of them have brownish skin. I would call people from Turkey southward as "Brown". But I wont call them to be of the same race as Indians.Asian2duracell 23:36, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I have lived in London and I came across a few Southern Italians and Greeks who looked South Asian. I have also known Italians who have experienced racism and been called `Pakis'. They are mixed race populations so it is not surprising. They cannot be classed as white! the previous comment is in support of the fallacy of Indians constituting a `race unto themselves'. There is NO standard appearance of what an Indian is supposed to `look' like.

Well then.. but u as a Punjabi should know that Indians vary a lot North or South. I've seen enough North Indians with very dark skin and South Indians with very light skin and otherwise. So why is it wrong to be a "dark skinned" Italian, and still be white? Indians have more incommen with themselve than with other ethnicities. There is no "Indian race", ur right. But still most South Asians look alike. I think there are more Bangladeshis and Sri Lankans who get called "Paki", than there are Italians and Greeks. Asian2duracell 16:02, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Why not include this image of Omar Abdullah in the gallery just on the grounds that he is Indian! http://www.krav-magaindia.com/images/omarabdullah.jpg

[edit] I SEE IT DIFFERENTLY!!!

I have to strongly disagree with this, i myself am Tamil & 1/4 chinese. My father was very dark skin and would be considered black anywhere else in the world, actually BEING and having been around tamils i can very clearly say that tha majority to almost all tamils i have seen have all had dark skin and myself have faced racism having even been called "Nigger". Since the person above me used pictures to prove indians being more closer to europeans with pictures of tamils and south indians. I feel obliged defending the notion of Tamils as to be able to be known as "blacks",

A Tamil Nadu Soccer Player http://www.hindu.com/2007/02/11/images/2007021108521701.jpg

a group of tamil nadu men http://www.foodrelief.org/gallery/albums/tamil-nadu-relief/tamil-nadu-relief-023.jpg

Tamil Nadu females http://abroadabroad.ca/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/PICT0057.jpg

A Tamil male with a caucasion/"white" female http://farm1.static.flickr.com/56/125773211_c5384b5fd7.jpg?v=0

Another group of Tamils http://www.tn.gov.in/pressrelease/archives/pr2005/pr311005/oct31b.jpg

Tamils Kids in a village in Tamil Nadu http://www.amazingindia.info/images/fullsize/village2.jpg

a Tamil Nauch (Dancing Girl) http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/sri_lanka/lk02_02d.jpg

Tamils in australia http://www.ltteps.org/mainpages/images/2005/03/Delegation_in_Austria.jpg

Young tamil girl http://www.bnp.org.uk/images/newsarchive19/tamil+female.jpg

Singaporean musician & comedian Siva Choy http://www.starhub.net.sg/~viyo/Sivatwin150.jpg

I think i have made my point, to say that Tamils can not be considered "Black" i find unbelievable because tamils have very dark skin. Also noted the person who had pictures of fair Tamil's, it is the same case with modern day African Americans where you see a lot of fair skinned African Americans and also in Asia light skin is thought as beautiful while dark skin is considered ugly thus not having a lot of dark tamil actor's because they would come off as unpleasing to watch and as i am sure majority of the pictures the person above me put were actor's. Now if this column is to stay up, i insist that tamils at least stay in the column because i think it is rather obvious from the proof i have given that Tamils at least can be considered "Black".

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. Yes the persons above are light skinned, while the majority of us Tamils (I'm 100% Tamil) are dark skinned. But I chose them because the Punjabi guy tried to say that SouthIndians are dark where NorthIndians are light skinned. And thats not true those Tamil guys I've posted will be accepted as any kind of Indian, North or South. So would those U have posted. Just because we are dark skinned, that doesnt make us Black. We are genetically closer to Europeans than to Africans thats a fact. But we are genetically most related with EastAsians.

If u take a look at the physical features of the persons u have posted.. u will realise they look pretty Indian and not African. Well its not my problem that u have been called a "Nigger". I've heard some Anglos calling South Europeans or Turks also "Niggers", so are they Black? I guess No. But I hope u know that there is a similiar word in Tamil for Blacks, which has the same pejorative meaning as "Nigger" does. Why would some give himself such a rude name, if they think they're the same?Asian2duracell 11:21, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

First of all, i did not imply that Africans and Indians are the same. However this article is "Black People" rather than "Africans", almost all the Tamil people i know refer themselves as Black not because they believe they are African but because of their skin color. In many cases in columns with the subject of "black people" you can always spot an Indian or too (mistakenly if you must) put there. Whether we are genetically closer to Europeans than to Africans seems to have been debated on many times as the 'Afro centric perspective' would say. Now onto the physical features of the people i have posted, i don't really know what "looking pretty Indian" because that could mean anything. From the time i have spent with all kinds of Indians appeaence varies especially in Tamil, some features-wise look more like the one's you have posted while others i have seen have had thick lips, broad noses and afro like hair so "looking Indian" can be varied as i think the pictures i have put up have proved in fact. As you can see in picture #7 she has thick lips and a broad nose, i have to end this now because where i am at it is late and i am rather tired however like i first stated i believe we are black (based on skin color and appearance) and NOT African. Now if you want to get into genetics, people whose jobs are to find these things out have yet to come to a real conclusion whether we are closer to Europeans or Africans so I'll leave that one alone but if you want to believe you are closer to a European, more power to you.

This article is about Black people not Dark skinned people. You can be as dark as you want but unless you are of African descent you're not Black. Tamils are caucasoid (they are primarily related to Europeans and Arabs), they are not negroid. If the Tamil people you know refer to themselves as Black then they are very confused. Needshape 16:12, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Well If the most Tamil people u come across think they are Black, then I guess u havent met many so far. Tamils call very dark skinned Tamils sometimes Black and very light skinned Tamils as White. But more collegial or as a joke. So how many Tamils would call themselve "White"? I think noone. So why should we call us "Black"? Tamils with broad nose, kinky hair and thik lips? I've seen more Whites with curly hair than Tamils. Broad nose is not uncommen but very rare and if then not so brad as that of an African. Most Tamils have a inbetween nose from Arabs and Whites, not as sharp as a white and not as big as an Arab nose. Tamils like most Indians dont have thik lips, there are many with very small lips. And others who have full lips. ex. Jay-Z has thik lips, Angelina Jolie has full lips...

Lewis Hamilton, is called the first Black Driver in formula one. Narayan Karthikeyan was the first Tamil and first Indian Formula one driver who had dark skin. The Press never called him "Black". Can you please explain why is it that way? I think its because most people consider only people of recently african origin as "Black".

I even doubt that U are Tamil at all... I've come acros many Blacks who act like Tamils on the internet to propagate their Afrocentric wievs. But anyone who met a Tamil person in real life will doubt ur theories.Asian2duracell 16:50, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sub-Saharan Africa debate

Firstly, the first statement in the sentence was problematic. The statement that people who equate black with African descent have a narrow minded view is personal opinion. A lot of people argue that blacks are the only people indigenous to Africa, and any Caucasian presence is due to relatively late immigration. Africans traveled and populated the entire world, it would be extremely foolish and plain racist to assume that they couldn't of populated the northern part of their own continent. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Taharqa (talk • contribs) 08:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC).

Under Mostafa Hefny, I added an additional statement which is relevant to the topic.

Quote:

"Although Mostafa admits the region of Africa he comes from is North of the Sahara, he claims that he is black because his ancestors were from the ancient kingdom of Nubia, now part of Egypt and Sudan. In 1997, Mostafa attempted to sue the U.S. government to get his racial identity changed.[26] Though seemingly there is a contradiction here, as Nubia was also North of the Sahara and so is most of modern day Sudan."

Mostafa could very likely be a descendant of the Ancient Egyptians or Nubians, who knows (many people in southern Egypt look like him, and they are native)? I don't see where the U.S census gets off on telling people that the original inhabitants of North Africa were 'white' (including Egypt, when even to this day they aren't all 'white', that's mainly the Northern Arab Egyptians) then try and cover their absurdism by claiming this is simply a socio-political label and not scientific classification. Africans spread across the entire world, it would be foolish to believe that they didn't settle in North Africa, which is the closest thing to them. Egypt and Race is a whole other debate, just check the wiki article for that.Taharqa 08:01, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

It’s no more racist to say Blacks are from sub-Saharan Africa than it is to say that Caucasians are from North Africa and Western Eurasia, and East Asians are from East Asia. It’s no more insulting to say Blacks did not populate Africa North of the Sahara than it is to say Caucasians didn’t populate Africa South of the Sahara or Eurasia East of the Himalayas or that East Asians didn’t populate Asia West of the Himalayas. Although most anthropologists now reject the idea of race (or at least use less loaded terminology like ethnic group, genetic cluster, or population) geneticist Neil Rich argues that humans separated by barriers that impeded gene flow (i.e. major deserts, mountain ranges, oceans) separated into races [[4]] so if you’re going to speak of racial groups, you have to define their limits by landmarks that historically prevented them from blending into other races (otherwise how could races have emerged as relatively separate groups assuming you believe that they did). So that’s one reason why the definition of Black is frequently restricted to Sub-Saharan ancestry. The other reason is climate. As Muntuwandi has repeatedly explained, only the tropics and semi-tropics produce skin color normally described as black, so any dark skinned peoples living in North Africa would have to be the descendants of relatively recent arrivals (though how recent, and how long ago North Africa was first populated is a matter of debate). As for your claim that Africans spread around the world; this is generally regarded as an Afrocentric view, though future research and discoveries may prove Afrocentrics right. It's sometimes just a matter of semantics. For example if you define Australian Aboriginals as Black you may also define them as Africoid, in which case you can cite the recent discovery of an ancient Australian aboriginal skull in the Americas as evidence for your assertions. However those who take a genetic view do not consider Africans and Australian aboriginals as part of the same population. Iseebias 12:19, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

The US Census reference is bullcrap, IMO. It was used to represent certain people living in the US with Government representation. Early on, because of Slavery, there was much ado, because States (like those in the South with plantations) wanted to have it both ways i.e. Slaves as non-people (so they could justify the use and abuse and treatment as property like a friggen tractor.), yet they also wanted them to be counted so their State would have better, or more, representation! Today, that is not the case, as all Humans are considered "real and whole, not sub-human" people and are counted as such. (I'm not talking about prejudices here) This subject is Black people, although it does apply and is important to point out how they are viewed in the US but not a whole article almost exclusively based on US policy and views especially involving the US Census crapola. This article is American-centric. The U.S. Census, and Hefny etal, would be relevant to Race, Racism, etc. But, Black people? It's a whole different thing in the US. Black and White are still at odds. This is not a world view topic, as it is mostly American and some Western European ideas..etc...I don't know...<sigh> Jeeny 19:52, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map

This map is completely misplaced. I already removed it once. By placing a map so high that links to articles that all refer to various terms in the United States - with no caption or explanation to its relevance - is not helpful. It was restored on the basis that it shows who is "legally black" in the U.S. Whatever that issue involves should be in some subsection which deals with that country. Not high up in what appears to be a general part of the article. It is very misleading in its present context.-- Zleitzen^(talk) 13:33, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that it's not helpful. It shows exactly what part of the world you must have indeigenous ancestry from to be considered black in the U.S. and what parts classify you in a different category. It's not a general part of the article; there is no general part of the article because the article is divided into 2 separate definitions of Blackness: African ancestry & skin color. It's in the African ancestry section where it belongs Iseebias 15:13, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I did move the section lower in the page though as per your concerns Iseebias 15:22, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

There's still no caption, Iseebias, and no surrounding clarification as to how it refers to black people. In fact the whole section seems to be about the United States census, which is probably why someone added a huge tag to it to complain. The mapo should still be removed, the global nature of the map is extremely misleading. Asians, Africans, Europeans and Latin Americans are going to do the same thing I did, see it - click on their locale - only to get linked to some article about the United States. -- Zleitzen^(talk) 15:43, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

The text itself explains. And yes the debate is personified by the case of one individual who happens to be American? Is that a problem? Iseebias 15:55, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

My point doesn't seem to be clear enough. I'll try again. (1)The map has no caption, which is pre-requisite for all maps, graphs etc. Thus it is confusing to readers (2)The section seems to refer solely to the United States - thus the section title (Sub-Saharan Africa debate) and body should be clarified to explain this debate is something that is happening in the U.S. not something that relates to black people in general. The clearer the better - to prevent people like me clicking on it and then complaining; to prevent the editor who added the global-tag, and anyone else in the future who feels the same way which is almost inevitable. -- Zleitzen^(talk) 16:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Huh? The section is mostly about the views of Owen ‘Alik Shahadah who is German. And the sub-Saharan African debate is not confined to the United States. We quote other non-Americans in the article defining Blacks in terms of sub-Saharan ancestry. Do you think the term Black Africa is confined to Americans? Do you really? Do a google search on Black Africa and you'll get about 88 MILLION hits. Do you think our readers are so dumb, stupid, and unitelligent that they'll get confused by a map just because there's no caption? Are they not able to read the text? Iseebias 16:31, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll try and be even clearer, and stick to the main point: The map has no caption. All detailed maps and graphs should have explanatory captions. -- Zleitzen^(talk) 17:31, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't see why, but I can't spend all day arguing with you. You're SO persistent. Who has the time? Iseebias 18:15, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I tried to put a caption under the map, but could not figure out how to do it with the new syntax being used. I tried using the old way of showing messages, but then the labels and links on the map did not show up. I think the user who wants to can figure out what the map does, anyway.P0M 01:05, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I've removed it again. The map and template are for the U.S. census page and have not been created for pages like this. Without adding a clear caption, which seems impossible at this stage, it means that readers are clicking on universal terms but finding themselves at pages that deal with the United States only. -- Zleitzen^(talk) 07:26, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I modified the map by making it one image including the text so that a caption would be easier to include with it. I'm not sure how it would look on other monitors or browsers with the text as part of the image now, though. I haven't uploaded it to Wiki. Thought I'd get feedback first. I can't seem to post it directly on this page, here's the link: Modified US census map

That would be an improvement. I notice Iseebias restored the offending U.S. map claiming "incoherent reasons" and "no support on the talk page". Which part of the globalise tag added by an other editor, and my repeated statements that the map without a caption is misleading does Iseebias find incoherent?-- Zleitzen^(talk) 15:55, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I uploaded the image to the Commons so it can be used here, and therefore have a caption. Now, who's going to write the caption?

This has something to do with a census in the United States, but as of yet the context is not clear.

Jeeny 17:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Jeeny. Now we need to figure out what the map actually signifies. Are there five boxes on the U.S. census, and you have to tick one of the above? Any ideas?-- Zleitzen^(talk) 18:10, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

You're welcome, Zleitzen. This ONLY represents the 5 definitions of race according to the year 2000 US Census. I believe, but not sure, this has changed since. I think they added another category, I will check. Also, I was just trying to add the new map with caption but I don't know how to format it so it stays the same size and to the right. OH, No, you cannot tick any one of the above, it's just one image. I would not know how to do that in this Wiki format. Sorry. Heck, I can't even position an image correctly on this format...yet. Jeeny 18:25, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant ticking categories on the census form. This section [5] seems to discuss these categories in relation to the 2000 census. Here is the map formatted.-- Zleitzen^(talk) 19:02, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

No, don't be sorry. You were clear, I misunderstood. After I wrote that (about the image ticking) I actually did think you meant the categories not the image, duh me. I then went on research and posted the stuff below. Thanks for formatting the map. :) Jeeny 20:15, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Parts taken from the US Census website^[2]

Question: Does the Census Bureau have a policy on which tabulation options data users should use when comparing data on race from Census 2000 and previous censuses?

Answer: The Census Bureau is providing different tabulation options so that users may decide which option best satisfies their needs. In addition, the Census Bureau will provide a data file, using results from the Census Quality Survey to be conducted in the summer of 2001, that will assist users in developing ways to make comparisons between Census 2000 data on race, where respondents were asked to report one or more races, and data on race from other sources that asked for only a single race.

Question: What are the race groups that federal agencies are to use to comply with the Office of Management and Budget's guidance for civil rights monitoring and enforcement?

Answer: The categories (made available in OMB Bulletin No. 00-02, "Guidance on Aggregation and Allocation of Data on Race for Use in Civil Rights Monitoring and Enforcement"[6]) to be used are:

1. American Indian and Alaska Native
2. Asian
3. Black or African American
4. Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander
5. White
6. American Indian and Alaska Native and White
7. Asian and White
8. Black or African American and White
9. American Indian and Alaska Native and Black or African American
10. >1 percent: Fill in if applicable with multiracial combinations greater than 1% of the population
11. Balance of individuals reporting more than one race
12. Total

(end, there is more at the link above)

I had an editing war when I first saw this section a month of so ago, because of the example of Hefny (1997), and no mention of him since! Not in any references that I can find. Another reason I was against it is because it's about the frickin US Census! Which is, supposedly, only to help "create equitable legislative representation" and to monitor civil rights and enforcement for protection. Not make people choose between Black and White, Blue or purple.

While, I am not sure about immigrants entering the US at this time, I DO KNOW one can choose one's race that one identifies with, ALSO one may choose NOT to check ANY one of them. It is NOT required. Again, I don't know about immigrants entering the US, but those who are in the US at the time of a Census. Another ALSO, not everyone fills out those dang things either. It's not a law to comply (It is illegal to be in the country illegally, lol. but that's a whole other story). I guess one can call it a civic duty (census) so that the people are fairly represented in the US, but it's not a law but it is strongly encouraged that everyone participate. Jeeny 19:27, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe hefny is a one off case, its an interesting story but it ends there. my preference would be to remove hefny because i do not see his situation affecting many people. yes they are many afro-arabs in saudi arabia and yemen but they are not complaining.Muntuwandi 19:33, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Most Ethiopians are Afro-Arab so technically they too could sue the U.S. government to get classified as White. According to Jeeney's argument though, second generation Ethiopian Americans would be free to self-identify as White if they chose to identify with their Arab ancestry. Anyway, not sure why you want to get rid of the hefny case. It's a high profile case that relates to the topic. Yes he's the exception not the rule, but text books often discuss exceptions if they are high profile Christmasgirl 19:43, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Christmasgirl, this is exhausting. Anyone can 'sue' anyone they want to in the USA for anything. Doesn't mean they will get far, depending on the subject/reason/crime/etc, that is. But, in this topic about the US Census crap... Most people entering the US and applying for citizenship or for visas, etc. do get classified, yes.... BUT they can CHOOSE later to identify with whatever they wish. Within reason, of course (so you don't jump on me again) Within reason!. ARG!. Jeeny 20:01, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

This case is from 1997, ten years ago, I have not found any resolution, seems more like frivolous lawsuit. Muntuwandi 20:07, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Ah, thank YOU! 10 years ago! I tried to make this point and put it in the article and kept getting reverted. Jeeny 20:15, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

You kept getting reverted because you kept trying to rewrite the section in the past tense as though whatever problem Hefny was fighting had been solved. I personally like to see relevant evidence before relegating an issue that occurred only 10 years ago to the history category and your evidence failed to convince me Christmasgirl 21:34, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

You don't get it. 10 years ago IS past tense. It happened 10 YEARS ago. The way it was written suggested it happened at least just recently. 10 years is a decade! A decade ago (past tense). A long time ago. Why is there no other information ANYWHERE if he actually DID sue the US Government AND could not take advantage of the Affirmative Action available soon after he "threatenED" to sue? Jeeny 23:01, 30 March 2007 (UTC) present

[edit] Sub-saharan africa debate

I think this heading is misleading because I don't think there is any active debate or controversy going on regarding the term. It is recognized by the UN as a Subregion. the assertion that it is racist really doesn't have much support because very often it is black africans themselves who want to be distinguished from their northern comradespage 20. What i think can be racist is the context within which the term is used, not the term itself( eg even the term "black" can be racist depending on the context). I do not see any difference between the cultural distinctions between east africa and west africa. Therefore I propose to change the heading to sub-saharan africa, and the notion that it is racist should be considered WP:FRINGE.

Secondly, how relevant is the case of Mostafa hefny. for example Naomi Campbell can make the sam e claim, stating that she is british and therefore by US law she is white. but that does not hold water because her ancestors are eventually from sub-saharan africa via jamaica. The same can be said for hefny. Somewhere in his recent family history his ancestors came from the same place all dark skinned people came from which is Sub-saharan africa. Muntuwandi 16:59, 30 March 2007 (UTC) Muntuwandi 16:59, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

U.S. law would not force Naomi Cambell to be White (I don't think) because she not from the original peoples of Britain. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Hefny's case is probably different because he is claiming origins in the original peoples of Egypt-so really the debate appears to be about which "race" colonized Egypt. But feel free to change the title of the section if you feel it implies a big debate where little exists Iseebias 17:43, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I have made an attempt to make the section less US centric and more about SSA itself. but i still question how relevant hefny is because he seems to be the only person going through such a dilemmaMuntuwandi 19:16, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Iseebias, Hefny claimed, he is not "claiming" as that is old news. It makes it seem that that is the case today, it is not. This encyclopedia is supposed to be up to date, right? Doesn't mean his story is not relevant though, but it is misleading as it speaks in the present tense. Which is not true. He is no longer suing the US Government. There is NO evidence that he even did or HAD to. Jeeny 20:25, 30 March 2007 (UTC)