Talk:Black Canadians

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[edit] General discussion

I Would like to point out that, African Canadian is a incorrect term. The American stood for North America, not the United States of America.

Irrelevant. The community is free to make its own choices as to how it identifies. It doesn't matter how US-Americans use the word "American"; if it lands inappropriately on Canadian ears, that's the final word no matter what. Bearcat 02:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)


The statement "In spite of the great contributions Black Canadians have made, many still face challenges in the society." is a subjective one.

I recommend "In spite of the great contributions Black Canadians have made" be deleted or replaced with "Although many believe Black Canadians have made great contributions..."

Changed that DeirYassin 21:44, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • That statement is also subjective - if you review the list of Black Canadians, in many cases their contributions to Canadian society are absolutely inarguable. Bearcat 10:05, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Racist comment by 66.63.126.171 reverted Apr 13. Bearcat 22:59, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Jarome Iginla is listed as a famous black Canadian. Iginla is in fact of mixed racial origins, as pointed out in his wikipedia article. I don't know if this means his name should be moved or should remain in that section.

The article mentions Exodusters. I was not aware Exodusters had made it to Canada at any point (it was primarily a movement from the American South to Kansas). "The Blacks in Canada: A History", widely considered the definitive history of Black Canadians, doesn't seem to include any mention of them (I could be wrong though). Can anybody provide a source for this?

Is Pinball Clemons an American or Canadian? I'm not sure of his current legal status in Canada but he is certainly an American citizen.

  • Thanks to Samaritan for the clarification on Pinball. Based on his permanant resident status and prominant role in Canadian society, I say he should definitely be kept on the list.--Daul21 06:36, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Caribbean" descent?

To say that Black Canadian refers to Canadians of "African or Caribbean descent" seems misleading; many Caribbean people are of non-African origin (especially Chinese and Indian; and for that matter, European) and do not consider themselves black. Those Caribbean people of African descent would be included by saying simple "Canadians of African descent" only. So, I propose to remove the "or Caribbean" from the definition. Sharkford 20:33, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

On the other hand, many West Indians of non-African descent consider themselves "black", especially when they find themselves in "white people country". Many Trinidadians see "black" as a term for "non-white" and prefer the term "negro" for people of African descent. Guettarda 21:34, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
As the article makes quite clear, in the particular context of Canada there's a very real tension between Caribbean and non-Caribbean black Canadians as to the definition and labelling of their communities. Even taking into account the fact that Caribbean blacks are usually (although, as Guettarda correctly points out above, not always) of African heritage when you trace further back, they object quite strongly to the elision of their Caribbean history. I've tried a rewrite which is hopefully clearer about the complexity of the issue, but simply removing "or Caribbean" isn't the way to do it in this case. Bearcat 22:42, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I'm aware of the tension between Black Canadians of (recent) Caribbean origin and those who trace their lineage otherwise (overheard: "My, what a lovely accent you have; what exotic island are you from?"—"Cape Breton!"); and also between "afro-" and "indo-" people within the former community, though even on re-reading I don't think I'd agree that the article makes this particularly clear. But perhaps this is material for a different article. I was unaware that Caribbean people with no African ancestry (for example, Trinidadians of solely Indian or Chinese ancestry) grouped themselves as Black, so many thanks for that information. At any rate I think the rewrite is very good. Sharkford 14:14, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

I always thought that Black Canadians of Jamaican origin alone constituted about 50% of the general Black population in Canada ( I read in another article about Jamaicans being unfairl deported that there were more then 300 000 Jamaicans living in Canada), I'm also surprised the African % is as high as 16, are these numbers accurate? If they are, that's very interesting, where are these sources from? To the previous posts, for this article 'Black' refers to people of African descent but I also wondered if the African/Caribbean statistics omitted non-Black people from those regions who are classified as 'African' and Caribbean on census--161.57.100.3 18:31, 29 October 2005 (UTC)Anonymous X

I really don't know where the stats are from; I didn't add them. But we would certainly need an annotated factual reference to back up any assertion that Jamaicans alone constituted 50% of the community. Bearcat 08:39, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

I think I've rephrased the intro in a way that will please everyone. Please take a look.--Cuchullain 22:06, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About Caribbean

We should leave caribbean Canadian. Blacks who are African only make 1 in 5 Blacks, so why should blacks in general be called African. If anyone went to the Caribbean and called them African, they would give you looks of deepest loathing.

[edit] Identity labels

Gawd, how I wish Toronto Star links stayed active more than a week...this would be a really choice external link here. Bearcat 08:08, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Michaëlle Jean

I notice that User:Bearcat removed Michaëlle Jean from the list of Black Canadians. He claims that "we" have "repeated" many times that she does not belong on the list, but I don't see any discussion at all on this talk page regarding her inclusion (and I checked before adding her name in the first place). I think that Bearcat is acting unilaterally, and the fact that several people have apparently (without my prior knowledge) previously added her to the list shows that the consensus is actually in the other direction. Andrew Levine 22:10, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I didn't say she doesn't belong in the list; I said she's already mentioned in the article. The rule on Wikipedia is that we don't list a person multiple times in an article of this type. Bearcat 22:26, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Where is this rule stated? Andrew Levine 22:30, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Is there a valid reason why she should be listed twice? Is there a valid reason why she should get to be the only person listed twice in the entire article? It doesn't have to be a stated rule to be valid — it's a basic editing rule that you don't put two different entries for a single person in a single list. How does this qualify as some kind of exception? Bearcat 22:37, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
There are a number of featured lists, recognized as conforming to Wikipedia's editing guidelines, which mention a few items in the lead and then go on to include them in the list that follows. Among them are:
...and probably many others, as I only clicked on a few. If you want to know a good reason why she should be listed a second time, you need only count the number of times people have noticeable absence from the bulleted list and added her to it. I think many people are likely to simply scroll past the prose section of the page until they find something like a bulleted list, and they may zip past the brief mention of Jean in the lead, and be confused at why she's not there. Andrew Levine 22:43, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
On form, I agree with Bearcat's point; on usability, I agree with Andrew's, and I tend to think, here, the latter wins the day. Samaritan 22:45, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, you know, maybe I'm different from most people, but when I see a person mentioned in the expository section of an article and then repeated in the subsequent list, that doesn't increase the article's usability for me — it only makes it look sloppily edited, which inherently reduces the article's value. YMMV, I suppose, but I fail to see any convincing reason why I should revise my view of how this kind of thing comes across to the reader, because I don't for a second believe that my perceptions are abnormal. Bearcat 22:59, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Bearcat, let me know if my latest edit to the page is a suitable compromise. I removed Jean from the lead and added her to the bulleted list. Hopefully this resolves the issue of "special treatment." Andrew Levine 23:08, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Seems fair. Glad we were able to resolve this without bloodshed :-) Bearcat 23:12, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Before long, we should spin off List of Black Canadians; there's certainly much more to be written on Black Canadian history and communities in the main article body... Samaritan 23:11, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd also agree with that... Bearcat 23:12, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Demographic question

This article at one time contained an unsourced claim that half of all black Canadians were of Jamaican origin alone. Then, when somebody provided an actual sourced demographic breakdown, the percentage of Jamaicans was around 38, so the sentence in question was changed to "a third" accordingly. Now, all of a sudden, the claim is back to half, and the sourced percentages have been taken back out. Can somebody explain why we're removing actual sources from Wikipedia articles, and/or provide a real source to support the "half" claim? Remember that information in Wikipedia has to be verifiable. Bearcat 15:46, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link for Black Canadians Page

Black Crafters Guild http://craftsguild.net African Diasporans creating, decorating, and creatively altering items by hand.

Afrocentric Homeschooler Association http://blackhomeschool.org

Both nonprofit organisations are completely free and based in Ontario, Canada.

[edit] Deletion

In AshleyMorton's words, "I believe this article's topic to be something that neither requires nor merits a Wikipedia article. I believe that the current low quality of the article (which seems to be not much more than a recitation of demographic statistics with the addition of a single paragraph of not-fully-relevant history) does not, as some might suggest, mean that the article should be improved. I believe, instead, that it demonstrates that a Wikipedia-quality article cannot be written on this topic. The poor article quality is, of course, just a symptom of the lack of encyclopedic nature of this topic. First, I believe that this article has been created to bolster a school of thought which believes that this identity exists. An article on that sort of racialized thinking might be valid, of course, but that's not the same thing as creating an article which should only exist if you buy into their belief system.

As an example of the sort of confused thinking that must have lead to the creation of this article, the "Ethnic group" infobox template has been used. However, this confounds the concept of a skin colour and an "ethnicity". Ethnicity, as reported by Statistics Canada (for example), includes most national identities that can be seriously considered. "Quebecois" (apologies for lack of accents) is included, as is "Canadian", "Irish", "Lebanese" and "Ethiopian". THOSE are ethnicities (or at least, they're worthy of Wikipedia articles, because they clearly encompass a set of people who understand themselves by the label. However, the set of people who understand their own ethnicity to be "Black Canadian" is very different from the set of people described by the label.

Finally, I will head off the most obvious and useless argument - which has been used both in the article and on its talk page. In fact, the first sentence of the article is, I believe, nothing more than an attempt to justify the very existence of the article. Any article that must do that is on shaky ground.) The argument basically says that because StatsCan counts it, it must be a valid article. This is an irrelevant point, as StatsCan counts numerous things that are not worthy of articles - can you picture an article with the title "Single Family Dwellings in Kenora" ??? AshleyMorton 16:56, 4 December 2006 (UTC)"

I think this applies to this article greatly.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by RyanRP (talk • contribs).

RyanRP is unhappy with other editors at talk:White Canadian, and is making a WP:POINT. —Michael Z. 2006-12-05 23:40 Z
  • I agree that the same academic standards should be applied to all race/ethnic articles on Wikipedia. The logic that is being used to propose deletion of the White Canadian article can just as easily be applied to this article and similar articles. Spylab 00:07, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
No, it can't. "Black Canadian" is a specific cultural identity with a legitimately encyclopedic common history, a legitimately encyclopedic social and cultural context. "White Canadian" is just a weird POV attempt to create an imaginary equivalence that doesn't actually exist in the real world. Bearcat 01:12, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Matthew DeCosta or Mathieu Da Costa?

What's the correct spelling? Both spellings appear in this article. Spylab 23:54, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Improved definition

I changed the opening to be more accurate and simple. The old definition left out many people who are considered, and consider themselves, black Canadians. For example, the old definition referred to citizens, which excludes people who have landed immigrant status. Also some black people might not be able to directly trace their ancestry back to Africa.

The term black Canadian refers to black people who reside in Canada. Most black Canadians could trace their ancestry back to people who were indigenous to Africa. The vast majority have relatively recent origins in the Caribbean, while others trace their lineage to the first slaves brought by British and French colonists to British North America.

Spylab 00:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article needs references

This article desperately needs references. There are many stastical and historical claims that need to be backed up by reliable sources, instead as accepted as fact on the word of whoever added them to the article. Spylab 00:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

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