Talk:Black (people)/Races of Egypt

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Contents 1 There are Black people in Egypt, India, etc 2 Mr. Egyptian 3 Proof that Egyptians are color conscious 4 "Arabization" and Egyptian Identity 5 Removing comments in the Talk Page 6 Re: "Arabization"

[edit] There are Black people in Egypt, India, etc

And I will be putting BACK the references to Egypt in the article. You got a problem with it anonymous 208 discuss it here first. No unilateral omissions allowed.--68.60.55.162 06:04, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Oh and Anon 208, & Soheir, I also notice, you removed most of the references I made, Cheikh Anta Diop, MOstafa Hefny, etc. I put them back. No explanation, no service. --68.60.55.162 06:07, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

It does not matter if the fact unsettles you that Black people exist in your culture throughout history. I don't care if you're Indian, Egyptian, or whatever. Get over it. Soheir I will simply repost them. If you have a problem with it being said that Black people have been in Egypt and that Ancient Egyptian culture has a strong Black component in it, then talk about it here. You remove it, I will put it back.--208.254.174.148 13:11, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I was shocked when I came across this article while doing research on another topic. I am Egyptian and was stunned by the black "afrocentric", erroneous point of view being presented about my country and culture. First, why is Egypt being singled out in this manner? There have been black people who have migrated into Egypt, particularly in the past 40-50 years following the overthrow of the monarchy. These people are primarily Sudanese in origin. Mostafa Henfry that you cited had a Sudanese mother. This reference should be removed because according to US standards he would not be considered "Egyptian." In Egypt, the child takes the status of his or her father. In Egypt, there is not the hostility between racial groups that I have witnessed here in the United States. There isnt the obsession. Does it mean that because there are Black Americans that ALL Americans...or even the majority are black? Or that there are black Britons that all British people are black? So why because there is black minority in Egypt as there is in most countries today that this article tries to characterize all Egyptians as people group as being black?

Egypt is not being singled out. Many other countries are mentioned. So that shows that you are acting in a paranoid or arrogant fashion. Secondly, why should it stun you that there were and are Black people in your own country? Does it stun you that there are white people in your country? Does it stun you that there are Arab people (you know the people that originally came from the ARABIAN peninsulia) in your country? Secondly, since his FATHER (not mother) is Egyptian how then is he "not Egyptian" since the child takes the status of the father? I do believe you are confusing Mostafa Hefny with Anwar Saddat (but I could be wrong). What information do YOU have access to that indicates that Mostafa Hefny's mother is Sudanese? How then can you say that there is a Black minority in Egypt that I characterize all Egyptians as a people group as being Black. Let us review what this article says about Egypt.

No I do not have Anwar Sadat confused with Mostafa Henfy. I had never heard of Mostafa Henfy until I looked up the name and read several news reports where Mostafa Henfy describes himself as being a Nubian Egyptian or of Nubian descent. He certainly should be allowed to classify himself as black and not be told what to classify himself as. I also saw a photograph and he does appear to be black based on his physical characteristics. My problem is that all you saw with the headlines was "Egyptian" or "Egyptian" immigrant which belies the fact that his own self-described origins are Nubian and not representative of all Egyptians. So if the "racial classification" is changed based on this one individual so now I and other Egyptians who do not identify with nor have black ethnic characteristics will have to sue to be able to identify ourselves. Personally I would advocate the removal of these classifications. They seem very contradictory in the United States especially that is supposed to be a color-blind society.

"while other countries like Egypt and the northern areas of Sudan tend to denounce it entirely whenever possible, holding on to Arabic or Semitic influences as their primary heritage." That seems to be what you are doing right now. You are denouncing the Black influence in Egypt, and holding on to the notion that the only primary influence in Egypt is Arabic and Semetic. Am I to understand that the character of Egypt is devoid of black heritage?

"However, many racist organizations have attributed historical achievements in ancient societies to these supposed Caucasoid ancestors in their efforts to deny any black contribution to civilization, as in the case of the Ancient Egyptian culture." - Do you dispute this as well? If so whY?

"a significant minority of Egyptians consider themselves to be black." that seems to agree with what you just said "...there is black minority in Egypt as there is in most countries today " - why would or should then this be taken out?

Finally, this is an article about a racial/ethnic group. The obsession is not that I put the information in (which is objectively placed in... I do not put in that Black people are a significant heritage of Germany or Japan)... The obsession with race occured when you saw what I put in, and felt shock, and a need to erase anything with Egypt. Your obsession further revealed itself, because you erroneously say that I singled out Egypt (as if I have not presented nearly a dozen other countries in this article).

This is presumtious and offensive. If you were to ask most Egyptians you would realize that most do not consider themselves black. For myself I have had very rude black Americans who when I said I was Egyptian say you're lying....I thought you were Italian. Most Egyptians are of what you call Mediterranean stock...similar to what you see throughout the Middle East. When most Arabs meet each other here in the US, you do generally do not know whether the person is Egyptian, Jordanian, Lebanese, Syrian, etc. by sight until you speak and hear their accent or the spelling of their name. Incidentally your article does not even mention that Syria was part of the Arab Republic of Egypt at one time.

What is offensive to me is that you are offended by the idea that some egyptians are Black. I hear the same nonsense in Sudan. I am very aware of the Arabization of Northeast Africa over the past millenium. Further more, this article isn't about Egyptian National identity, and what on earth would be the purpose of putting Syria into the article? How does that relate to Black people in any way? What? If I put Black people into one country, i have to offset it by mentioning a non-black aspect (the 50/50 rule?) And you really aren't going to convince me that the Saeedi and Nubians of Egypt look like Jordanians and Syrians. Here are some pictures, you tell me.

http://web.mit.edu/dimitrib/www/Egypt_Photos/panel6_page.htm

in Addition, it offends me that you say that Arabs are not obsessed about race like here in America. Read this article, take a listen.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A6645-2004Jan10&notFound=true http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4271003 So knowing this happens (I read this article a few months back), and it's not isolated, I am more offended by what you say. Thank you again.--208.254.174.148 20:50, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Oh and what a coiencidence, the Nubians were the unfortunate ones that were displaced by the Lake Nassar project. Not a surprise. I'm sure the government of the North chose this based on sound unbiased advice. Finally, don't give me any bull that "any and every Black egyptian must be a Sudanese immigrant".

When the recent Miss Universe pageant was shown in the US, I was glad to see that some people were gaining a better understanding of the appearance of Egyptians. Most are of the typical Mediterranean/Middle Eastern type of dark hair and eyes. Sally Shaheen represented Egypt during the pageant as Miss Egypt. She is blonde and yes, her family is native Egyptian.

Here is a question for you. When you see a blonde Egyptian, you say "ok she is native". When you see a Black Egyptian, you say A. "she must have ancestors from outside of Egypt" or B. "she is native"? You see, does it cross your mind that maybe SALLY (quite the arabic/egyptian name) might have grandparents or ancestors that are NOT egyptian? Also, does it cross your mind that she may not be a natural blonde, her hair may not be naturally bone straight, and that her eyebrows and features may not naturally resemble an Italian? I mean, how well does she represent the look of the average Egyptian female? So you were glad to see the whiteness (because that's really what it is) of an Egyptian presented to affirm the a better understanding and appearance of Egyptians. Now I am offended. Thanks. --208.254.174.148 20:50, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

This encyclopedia purports to give accurate information that others may utilize for research and learning. As such it should be neutrally accurate and not have such a decidedly "afro-centric" slant that unfortunately exists in the US that do not care whether they are accurate or not in their promotion of "black power." Study the black civilizations of sub-saharan Africa...there is much to be proud of, there is not need to "kidnap" my culture, history and culture and try to refashion it as something else. This does not promote learning between people. The information removed was that of opinion and not fact and should not presented by an "encyclopedia." This information would not be considered accurate by the majority of Egyptians...or even Africans. When Boutros Boutros-Ghali was named the head of the United Nations, one prominent head of state from a sub-Saharan country (I will have to get the exact name of the person) stated why couldnt they have chosen a "black African."

You said "there is not need to "kidnap" my culture, history and culture and try to refashion it as something else." Tell me, does this look like you or Sally?

http://www.umb.edu/academics/departments/africana_studies/images/queen_tiye.jpg or what about this http://www.arthistoryclub.com/art_history/upload/thumb/0/0a/200px-Egypt.AmenhotepIII.statue.01.jpg http://www.tau.ac.il/humanities/archaeology/projects/images/akhenaten.JPG http://web.ukonline.co.uk/gavin.egypt/images/scribe6.jpg http://www.courses.psu.edu/art_h/art_h111_bac18/head.jpg http://www.egyptmyway.com/images/photo/egmuseum/djoserhorus_b530.jpg

Modern

http://www.mideasttravelling.net/egypt/aswan/images/aswan_camel.jpg http://gallery.hd.org/_exhibits/people/_more2003/_more08/nubian-people-in-traditional-courtyard-home-in-Aswan-Egypt-SEW.jpg http://mirror-us-ga1.gallery.hd.org/_exhibits/people/_more2003/_more08/nubian-man-piloting-faluka-sailing-boat-on-the-Nile-Egypt-SEW.jpg http://www.asc.upenn.edu/usr/cassidy/pix/travel/egypt-11-2001/mrabud.jpg http://www.peterlanger.com/People/Africans/pages/EGASW010.htm

None of these people look like Italians. Those look like Black people to me. And no, not isolated exceptions to the rule. And no, the game "all of the blacks must come from outside Egypt." isn't an honest way to deal with the issue. I do not say that the Egyptian culture of history was 100% black, what I say is what I have said. The Black people of Egypt are marganialized and arabized and are motivated to renounce their blackness in the face of so much ignorant opposition from people like yourself. You feel offended, I feel offended. Now what. You want to move on and deal with the facts or just try to act like this is about appeasing each other? --208.254.174.148 20:50, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

The US Census designation is correct and represents how most Egyptians self-identify. The ones who do not do so because they have non-Egyptian parentage, but still represent themselves as Egyptian nonetheless because that is the law in Egypt. The irony is that this is not a problem in Egypt because we do not have the racial obsession or ulterior political motives of groups like black nationalists. It would be a shame that because the US tends to project its societal views on the rest of the world if we had to start labelling ourselves as "white Egyptians" and "black Egyptians."

The US census designation is not correct. You don't have a racial obsession because through the years the whites of the north with Britain and France have successfully psychologically

innundated the Egyptian people with a belief that they should deny being Black at all costs. It's called colonization. It's like the Dafur crisis in Sudan, there are no more villages being burned because all of the villages are burned down. You still cannot change history though. --208.254.174.148 20:50, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

The fallacies and biased point of view being presented in the article are not correct. As they are contested, they should be removed so the article can present factual information and not subjecture.

I'll start posting pictures of Black Egyptians on here if you want and you can debate until your green in the face if they came from another country or not. In about 100 years, after the Blacks in sudan are wiped out (like the Blacks in Egypt were over time), we can pretend that Sudan never had any indigenous Black people there either. Oh and funny you should mention Italians as resembling Egyptians. --208.254.174.148 20:50, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Why is it funny that I should mention that some Egyptians resemble some Italians. I am Egyptian and I am continuously being taken for being Italian (as well as other Southern European group, but most often, Italian) On more than one occasion I have had Italians here in America begin speaking to me in Italian, making the assumption that I was one. With respect to the mention of Nubia, it seems to be forgotten that Nubia was its own distinct kingdom (Kush) located in Northern Sudan. During history, Egypt had many military campaigns and conquered parts of Nubia and brought some Nubians into Egypt as slaves. At particular points in Egyptian history, there were slave uprisings as well as battles with the Nubian kings. As a result of these battles and expanding territory lines, there are people of Nubian and Sudanese descent in Egypt and throughout Egypt's history. I have never denied that. However I have noticed an erroneous tendencies to interchange Egyptian and Nubian as though they were the same. While influenced by Egypt, Nubia had its own language and its own gods. They buried their kings in pyramids but in a differing style from Egyptian pyramids. I really take offense at your statement that "Britain and France have successfully psychologically innundated the Egyptian people with a belief that they should deny being Black at all costs." We do not owe our self-identification to other countries, including the "afro-centric" movement that I have witnessed here in the US that seems to want to cast Egypt as being "black" as a sort of trophy for "black civilization." The incredible irony is when some of these people meet actual Egyptians and realize that most of the people they have met do not have the physical characteristics of a "black" person. Interestingly enough, native black Africans do not have this "confusion" regarding Egypt because they have no agenda to prove.

What you are ignoring is that Nubia was distinct from Kush. There were Nubian societies NORTH of Sudan in Southern Egypt. Even now, there are Nubian people who live in southern Egypt. You being mistaken for an Italian is not an issue with me, it's no doubt that there are whiter looking Egyptians all over Egypt, however, you yourself are not consistent. Southern Egypt (Present day Al-Mazr) has Nubian people, and they have lived there all through the generations. I brought up the example of Mostafa Hefny, whom you confused with Anwar Saddat (which you being a native Egyptian seems odd), and I personally have met quite a few SAEEDI Egyptians who do not share your view point. They know the difference between passing and furthermore, those who I speak with are very conscious of the racial stigma they have to go through. If they are female, they are berated if they interact with Black men, if they are male, they are treated as if they are one step down from being respected as a "real" Egyptian. Yea I have seen a lot of Egyptians that look like Italians. I have seen a lot of Egyptians and Italians that look like mulattoes (mixed black/white), and a lot of Egyptians that look like Black folks. The self-identification of the country is not an issue, as I mentioned before. National identity is irrelevant. What is relevant is the social consciousness of the society. Arabization is a real, active force in Northeast Africa. It's not a agenda of mine to make it up. I am RESPONDING to an agenda, and that agenda is to pretend that Egypt's historical character is devoid of blackness. The Afrocentric movement is always accused of "taking" something that is not theirs, yet when they post pictures that show obviously black looking Egyptians, what do they hear as a response? "Oh thats just because.... oh that's only due to the fact that...oh that's merely...." From Akhenaten's "marfan syndrome" to Anwar Saddat's (who looks more like George Jefferson than an Italian) own self-identity issues (i read part of his autobiography In Search of Identity) lends credence to what I say. We are watching Sudan arabize itself of African Black people, and I have no doubts that if they are successful, there will be a conversation a hundred years from now with someone like me telling someone like you that SUdan was a Black country and hearing the same mess you are telling me now. I showed you pictures of Black Egyptians. Plus, what baffles the heck out of me is how you can claim to be "arab" (that is a people from outside of Egypt) yet claim to be closer to the heritage of the Ancient NON-ARAB Egyptian history than the Black people of the region who have been there as long if not longer!--208.254.174.148 22:45, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Finally, you might want to consider that the relationship between Nubia, and Egypt was not llimited to slavery. That's another issue that is baffling. WHenever its "culture and blacks" the empathsis on slavery and conquest always is the focus. Nubian looking Egyptians have been present in Upper Egypt and were not slaves. I have seen the pictures of upper Egyptians, and they were not Italian looking. Does this look like a freaking Italian? --208.254.174.148 22:45, 20 September 2005 (UTC) http://www.metmuseum.org/explore/new_pyramid/PYRAMIDS/HTML/el_pyramid_head2.htm So you say that I am trying to dip Egypt into a black identity and pretend there is no variation. I am saying that you are defending the notion that Egypt (and Ancient Egypt) was a non-black looking society. I know Egyptians who consider themselves to be Black and are not descendants of Sudanese or foreigners. I know Egyptians who agree that the identity of Egypt as an Arab society is partly due to racism over the centuries. You wanna meet them? --208.254.174.148 22:45, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Also, when you said you don't care if I am "Indian, Egyptian or whatever" that shows a definite lack of cultural sensitivity and presumption on your part. I am talking about my history and my society. You have your opinion and probably hearing my perspective and what I discuss as fact will not change that because usually such an opinion has a distinct motive behind it. However, those portions of the text that I removed were opinion only and should be removed so that the factual information remains which is the purpose of an encyclopedia. This undermines the credibility of Wikipedia as a valid source. It is wrong for one opinion to be presented as fact. I think this is a fair request.

Let me respond to that. Firstly, my not caring is to inform you that my motivation does not change becuse of your ethnicity. I do not care if you are any race or ethnicity, because that does not ultimately make a difference. Secondly, it is absurd to even present the notion that Egypt does not have a significant amount of black people in the country. Even more absurd to assume that they were not present in ancient history. Black people have lived and continue to live in Egypt. THat is a fact. You saying that it is an opinion is like saying the holocaust occured was an opinion. Why are you even trying to put up for debate if Black people lived and have lived in substantial numbers in Egypt? Unless there was an Arab ethnic cleansing in Egypt (like in Sudan) that pushed Black people out recently that I don't know about, there is no reason to even entertain such nonsense. And thus of course all of your comments reek with double standard. --208.254.174.148 19:08, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I did not say that black people do not live in Egypt. I said that the fact that there are some should not be presented to characterize everyone else as being black which is what the article does. Again, this is akin to saying that because there are some black Americans that means that EVERY American is black. Some of my family in Minia saw the broadcasts of the people who were suffering as a result of Hurricane Katrina. The people shown were overwhelmingly black. My relatives were a little surprised and said they didnt know America had so many black people. That was the impression given because of the focus on the people who happen to live in that part of the US. Does this mean that the rest of the world should think of ALL Americans as being black or even predominantly black?

The issue here is then what is the proportion and significance of the black people in Egypt presently and throughout history. Obviously we are differning on that. I believe that the black presence in Egyptian history was significant and relevant to the character of ancient egyptian society. I believe that diminished over time due to the arabization ( af orm of whitening up) of the Egyptian culture after the introduction of Islam. Let me put it to you differently. The majority of Black people by large live in the south. Much like Egypt, the word for the area is called the "black belt" (Egypt was called the Black Land -Kemet), and so named in both cases for the black land AND the black people there. The Southern character of the U.S.A is whole-heartedly presented as white, even though over one third of the antebellum southern US population is BLACK. So it should SHOCK you (like it shocked you earlier) that the U.S. is misrepresented just like Egypt is misrepresented in the same way? The rest of the world thinks that ALL egyptians are NOT Black. You don't seem to be bothered by that. --208.254.174.148 21:04, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

You mention an "ethnic cleansing"....this article is like an ethnic cleaning because you attempt to characterize all Egyptians as being black, even though ethnically we are not.

I KNOW they aren't all Black. I never even implied that they were. REread my words, quote them if you need to. I don't try to pass off the whole country as Black, heck the delta of Egypt is so white now, its beyond even debate. --208.254.174.148 21:04, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I do not understand why an encyclopedia article would be full of so much conjecture and opinion that singles out Egypt and not present a strict definition of the term. My request is that these portions which are opinion are removed because an encyclopedia should present factual information and not opinion and supposition. I also do not see the relevance of making this article focus so much on Egypt rather than people and countries who do declare themselves to be black. That would be factual and relevant to the article topic.

This article says very little about Egypt in relation to the article as a whole. You need to review it. --208.254.174.148 21:04, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

The double standard exists because there is a motive in presenting material that is not factual as though it is.

YOU ARE SOOOO RIGHT! That's why I am here presenting this information. --208.254.174.148 21:04, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

The point has been made that too much empathsis on Egypt is in the article. I disagree with that. The person who made the comment even using a comparison to the U.S. really revealed how LITTLE black people are presented in Egypt, and the attitudes of presenting whites in Egypt as acceptible. So I thought about it, and what I know is this. NEver has a Black Egyptian been represented in any international beauty contest. No Nubian or Saeedi has been even considered. The definiton OF Black has been changed over the past 30 years or so in order to conveniently exclude Egyptians (of all shades, including dark) from being considered. I KNOW egyptians who are Black, and who are not "immigrants to Egypt". This "hiding" of their part in Egyptian society and history is offensive to them and should be. At the very least the Nubian aspect of Egyptian society should not be erased with the waters of Lake Nassar.

This is how the Egyptians viewed themselves in antiquity http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/race1.jpg

The Egyptian and Nubian both shaved (unlike the semetics who grew beards). They both wore their hair in braids or bald (semetics grew long unkempt hair)> I can agree that the Egyptians were mixed, but the Black aspect of Egypt's mixture is IGNORED.

Futher more, there is no sensible way other than to re-define Blackness to address this. On one hand, Black people especially in the U.S. are connected more by their shared heritage to Africa, and the solidarity through slavery and oppression. That is why the average EGYPTIAN looking Black person considers themselves to be Black and not "something else". On the other hand, many Black families of dark complexion have brown and lightskinned children. It happens rather frequently. Those children do not run away (at least not like they used to) and abandon their families passing for white or something else.

In egypt, this passing is done unconsciously. Egypt spent the past 300 years passing out and being "arab" means 'I'm not black', it's one step up from being white. Who in Egypt who IS black will say it with pride rather than shame? Look at the garbage in Sudan, just south of the borders of Egypt. It's not happening in Egypt because generations ago it already happened!

That's not to say that some Egyptians (and even now I would say the majority) are so lightskinned that they either have no clue or never had any Black ancestors. Many white Egyptians DO however have NON Egyptian ancestors from Europe, Armenia, Syria, etc. That's not even debateable. The immigrations from the

- This may seem like a petty thing, but what frustrates me to no end is why White anthropologists do not classify the Khoisan people of southern Africa as racially Black even with kinky hair. I've also heard them distinguish betwene 'Bantu and Negro' languages. How is this logical?

That's just it. THere is NO logic to what these anthropologists do. They operate on social comfort zones and racial stereotypes. They do not ask any of these people what they themselves view them as. If Mostafa Hefny is being told by the U.S. government that he will lose his job if he doesn't publicly regard himself as White, do you think maybe that the "experts" are just wrong? The Khoisan people are not "one" people. The word "negro" is used as the "leftovers that no one wants associated with any prestiege". This is the same garbage that was done in Rwanda. The "tutsi" and those more Negro Hutu. Belgium, France, and whoever else played that game and contributed to the racial sentiments that caused the much of the hatred of many of the Hutu, which others used to get away with the massacre. In Sudan we are doing it. Oh the "Arabs" and the "Blacks" of Sudan are fighting. This is nothing more than Black people two shades lighter than another group of black people fighting each other. When it SUITS the white people $$$$, or power wise, or prestiege, the lighterskinned BLACK people will be called "something else". And yes, my Egyptian friend, your country's identity was also influenced by Britain, Turkey, the Islamic Caliphates that ruled and France. I bet in Egypt, Black people would still be killed for going to the wrong neighborhoods. Hey Egyptian guy, what kind of Egyptian person is usually called an "ABD" (arabic for slave) in Egypt? The Italian looking one or the Black looking one? --208.254.174.148 22:53, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mr. Egyptian

REad the most recent comments from the white people article in reference to Middle Easterners trying to blend in with the White population. NO I did not write it, nor did I conspire to have someone make this up. --208.254.174.148 23:25, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

"I am from Canada, and I have never heard of a Middle Easterner, North African or Indian ever being classified as white, anywhere. Apon reading this article I decided to look over an American Census report, just to get a better idea about things. Evidentally, on an American census report an individual can check which ever race/box he chooses, or more than one if he so chooses. ( In other words, in America anybody can claim to be white on a census paper, so long as they check the necessary box.) The term Caucasian - or white - usually refers to white people, not brown people. If this were the case, individuals including Halle Berry, Ben Harper, Mariah Carrey, Thurgood Marshall and even Bob Marley would all fit neatly into a Caucasian catagory. Further more, Italians and most Spanish people are rarely seen as white on this side of the world.I beleave the middle Easterners on this page are attempting to claim another man's ethnicity. Example: You do not see very many American Indians claiming to be Chinese, dispite both groups being part of a "supposed" Mongoloid common ground?? I find this all absolutely rediculous, and I am puzzled as well as startled to find that there are Middle Easterners actually insisting they are white. Absolutely rediculous."

I find it fascinating Mr. Egyptian, how you accuse Black people trying to claim the non-Black Egyptian society for an agenda, and then on the other side your white cousins are calling you out for the same thing. ANd this guy is VERY logical, and I find it equally compelling. How then can you try to claim another man's ethnicity.

It is interesting that you dont cite any of my response to this posting. (I'm not sure if this was addressed towards me because I am not a "Mr") This poster also stated that Italians and some Spanish people were not considered white by him/her. The previous discussion on the board was about different countries' attitudes towards the term "white" and the Caucasian race. My response to this post was that there are different "types" within the Caucasian race...Nordic, Alpine, Mediterranean, etc. and that the term "white" (in the context of the overall discussion on that board) didnt only apply to Anglo-Saxon. Caucasians range from people with the lightest skin tone, blonde, blue-eyes to people with black hair, dark eyes and olive skin tone. The types are fairly mixed in most "caucasian" countries with some countries have one predominant type to another. In the Middle East, including Egypt, the predominant type is the Mediterranean. And yes, there are parts of the population in most countries in the Middle East, where there is some mixture with other types from Europe and from black Africans. But neither of these mixtures are the predominant type present.

How is this guy logical when none of the inividuals he mentioned are Middle Eastern? He doesnt mention Hank Azaria, Doug Flutie, Spencer Abraham, Danny & Marlo Thomas, Shannon Elizabeth, Tiffany Darwish (the singer), or Christa McAuliffe. These are just a few examples of people of Middle Eastern descent who this person might pass on the street or even live next door to and not realize were Middle Eastern because they didnt fit the idea of "Middle Eastern" in his mind. This is why it is important for encyclopedias like Wikipedia to present a balanced or neutral point of view.

[edit] Proof that Egyptians are color conscious

http://www.sudantribune.com/article.php3?id_article=1325

[edit] "Arabization" and Egyptian Identity

I posted a link below regarding the appointment by President Bush of Dina Habib Powell, and Egyptian-American woman (Powell is her married name) as a White House official.

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/711/profile.htm

The reason why I have posted this is in regard to a comment made by a previous poster above regarding "Arabization" and Egyptian identity. Ms. Habib, not only being Egyptian born of two Egyptian parents, is Coptic. The Copts are Egyptian Christians who date back to the time of Christ. Why this is significant is because the Copts are direct descendents from the Ancient Egytians who did not intermarry and continued as a very insular group to keep their identity even as the majority of the country became Muslim.

[edit] Removing comments in the Talk Page

These are comments removed by Esperanza with this explanation:

"Please stop adding nonsense to Wikipedia. It is considered vandalism. If you would like to experiment, use the sandbox. Thank you. Bratschetalk | Esperanza 02:35, 21 September 2005 (UTC)Actually, it is my responsibility as an administrator to keep the Wikipedia clean from factual inaccuracies. Adding nonsense is a type of vandalism, and if you continue, you shall be temporarily blocked from editing Wikipedia, which is a right. If you have any other questions, feel free to leave me a message on my talk page." Bratschetalk | Esperanza 02:40, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Here is the reposting of the allegedly nonsense/vandalism comments that I made:

Predominance of a particular type (of phenotype) is what we are getting at. Caucasians in your point of view can be as dark as olive skinned with black hair. What a coiencidence, Black people can also range to be as light as olive skinned with black hair. Now, when I see a picture of this: - - http://www.horizon360.co.uk/Egypt2000/Week1/images/Egypt2000-f5s26-M-Egyptians.jpg I am seeing a misrepresentation of people who actually looked more like this: - http://www.stahlbrandt.com/images/scan/990806/family_screen.jpg - http://www.workr.com/images/egypt-india-israel/egypt-kids.jpg - - These Egyptian people show a REAL mixture of Black and white, similar to mixed people all over the world. People are quick to put the mixed people (whether from black/white unions or from middle easterners) into the Caucasoid category but are quick to put African Americans no matter what their variation takes them, outside of that (not that its relevant they should be included as Caucasoids). See we can look at Egyptian models and actresses who tweeze their eyebrows, who use skin lightening cream (which is so damn popular ALL over Africa), who use hair coloring, and what not. We aren't going to get the nitty gritty truth. - - So the kid in the middle here http://www.firstlady.governor.virginia.gov/images/Collis-with-Black-Kids.jpg looks like an Egyptian kid, but because he is in America, he's not put in there. Oh and by the way I have no issue with the other kids being Egyptian either, but lets look at this issue from your lenses. - - From the U.S. Census - http://www.census.gov/pubinfo/www/photos/incpovphotos/blackfamily.hires.jpg - They look more Egyptian than your Egyptians. Here is another logical bias - Blonde egyptians are assumed to be natives. Black Egyptians are assumed to be the result of recent immigration. Why is that? How can Egyptians be Arab, when arabs actually do not originate from Egypt? I see a lot Egyptians that are no different visually than bi-racial Black/white couples across the board. MOST of them in my opinion resemeble that, and NOT Northern italians (Southern Italians and Sicilians resemble the biracial people, but that seemed to blow past you). But again, as I have said. The people in the middle (whether middle east or middle of Black/White) are categorized as Caucasoids. And that is fake. --208.254.174.148 02:11, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Finally, none of this is nonsense. It's arguable and we may disagree. But this is not nonsense. --208.254.174.148 18:50, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Re: "Arabization"

The points made by another poster regarding Egypt and "Arabization" are ridiculous because "Arabs" (meaning the Arabian Arabs) are descended from the Egyptians. The oral history of this is recorded in the Koran, the Christian Bible and the Torah. Ishmael is the "father" of the Arabs....his mother was an Egyptian and his wife was an Egyptian. This is the problem with the comments that are being made by that particular person...you are just making comments to suit your point of view without knowing or considering the actual history and culture. For you to say the Egyptians are "Arabized" is really laughable because the Arabs were descended from the Egyptians in the first place.

No where in the Bible, Torah, or Qu'ran is Ishmael mentioned as the father of the Arabs. Find the passage. IT's assumed by Arabs, that because Ishmael was believed to be the chosen one of Jacob, that he must be the arab ancestor of Muhammad. All of this is way out of touch with the earliest mention of Arabs, which is in Egypt 600 years before the time of Christ. Arabic was not a written language for even a longer period, and it makes no sense to come in here debating the Blackness of the Egyptians based on a belief that the Egyptians were originally Arabs. Again this is a "chicken and egg". The Egyptians came BEFORE the Arabs, and even if Ishmael is of Egyptian origin, that does not make Egyptians any more Arab than the Jews. - Zaph

Today, Egyptians and other ancient people groups in the Middle East such as the Lebanese (Phoenicians), Jordanians (Moabites), Syrians (Assyrians), Iraq (Babylonians), etc. identify as Arabs because we recognize a common ethnic kinship that is further bound together by shared language and most often, religion. I say most often, because some Arabs, including Egyptians are Christians. Above I had a posting discussing Coptic Egyptians who are considered to be the most direct descendents from the Ancient Egyptians because they remained separate from the "Arabization (as you called it..I'm being a little saracastic here) influx of Islam." In Coptic Churches, they still use the Ancient Egytian language but with a newer alphabet (as opposed to hieroglyphics). Incidentally the article that I referenced is about one Coptic Egyptian woman who was named to a White House post in the US that includes her picture. So I suppose you will say she is "Arabzied" also.

I am not frustrated by that example. What I am saying is that she is not representative of the Coptic population as a whole, because, and come on man you cant be this naive, just like in everywhere else, the lighterskinned foreigners are more likely to be respected in America than the darker ones. How often do you see ANY egyptians, East indians, or Middle Easterners represented ANYWHERE in America. I brought up Mostafa Hefny as an example, of how ABSURD it is. - Zaph