Talk:Birth control

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  1. Archive1: 2001 – 2006
  2. Archive2: January 2007

Contents

[edit] External links

Hallo Joyous! I have a question about your message: You ask me not to add inappropriate external links to wikipedia. When I compare the 2 links I added to other existing external links on certain webpages, I see that the 'appropriate' links (i.e the ones you leave alone), are also links to external -third party- organisations, such as our European organisation (STHOPD) is too. Our non-profit organisation works with volunteers and stands for certain principles which are similar to the 'appropriate' organisations on the webpages concerned, such as: Decreasing human overpopulation in an ethical way, having no children, warnings about the worldwide consequences of overpopulation such as the destruction of ecosystems. Please explain to me what would make our links appropriate. Friendly regards, 213.84.166.83 18:28, 21 January 2007 (UTC) MetaMouse.

The other external links provide information about birth control methods. Your external links advocate for birth control to be used in a certain way. I don't feel this is on-topic to the subject of birth control. They might be appropriate in an article on a different topic such as population control or overpopulation. Although they appear to be off-line now so I cannot view the sites, if they solicit for monetary donations or sell items to raise money, that is generally against Wikipedia policy for external links. Lyrl Talk C 22:14, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] US centric?

Many drugs are mentioned in the article as "available" or "withdrawn", but without mention of whether this is international availability or USA only.

[edit] Fertility awareness - primary signs and specific methods

This diff made a couple of changes I'm unsure of:

  • It changed from three primary signs to two. Weschler's book, the Kippley's book, and Singer's book (the only major FA publications I am aware of) all say there are three primary signs, the third one being cervical position. The Kippley's book even offers rules for using it as the only sign, which can not be done for secondary signs like mittelschmerz. I'm confused about where the statement that there are only two primary signs comes from.
  • While there are significant differences between the CM-only methods of Billings and Creighton, there are also many significant differences between the Couple to Couple League's STM rules and Weschler's STM rules.
    • CCL draws two coverlines, Weschler only draws one - in a different spot.
    • CCL allows 'shaving' (a math formula to lower one or more temps that are much higher than the ones around them), Weschler offers the 'rule of thumb' (completely ignore one temp that is much higher than the ones around it).
    • CCL offers six options for pre-o rules; Weschler offers three.
    • CCL offers five options for combinations of temps and CM to determine post-o infertility; Weschler offers one rule for temps and one rule for CM and leaves it completely up to the user whether to follow one, the other, or both.
  • So I'm uncomfortable about separating out the two largest CM-only methods, but not separating out the two largest STM methods. I'm also uncomfortable about separating methods out at all outside of the FA article - because of the international scope of (and thus possibly unrepresentative amount of English-language publications) newer methods like Marquette and the Two-Day Method, I'm not confident in judgments of their size. For all I know, they could be just as large as (and thus just as deserving of a mention) Creighton and Billings.

Others' thoughts? Lyrl Talk C 03:30, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Billings deserves a mention, in my opinion. Whenever we become aware of something sufficiently well-known or widespread to deserve a mention, let's mention it. If we're not sure whether something deserves a mention, don't worry about it. Don't not mention something just because there *might* be something else equally worthy of mention; if all of Wikipedia did that, we would never write any articles about anything. By "separating out" I suppose you mean mentioning (not writing a separate Wikipedia article about)? You can address your concerns by mentioning the Weschler and CCL methods. I'm guessing CCL at least is notable. Incidentally, it's my understanding that "shaving" is actually mathematically equivalent to ignoring one (or more) of the numbers, i.e. the same as the "rule of thumb". I could be wrong on that. --Coppertwig 04:17, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Shaving lowers the temperature by a certain amount. The adjusted temperature is still used in determining the coverline.
I've done some Google searches and found that "couple to couple league", "billings ovulation method", "fertility awareness method" (what Weschler calls her symtpo-thermo system), and "creighton model" all get well over 10,000 hits. "Marquette model" gets slightly over 10,000 hits, but many of them are unrelated to the NFP system. "Two day method" gets less than 1,000 hits. If my search terms were correct, this somewhat reassures me that Billings, Creighton, FAM, and CCL are the big four that should be specified. Though my worries that the newer methods have foreign language or non-web presences that are large still exist.
If there are a small number of method types, it makes sense to list them all out - this article lists both types of condoms (male and female) and all four types of cervical barriers (sponge, cap, shield, diaphragm). If there are a large number of method types, it does not. This article does not list the five different types of cap (Prentif, FemCap, Dumas, Vimule, Oves) - the cervical cap article does that. This article also does not list every formulation of birth control pill. The article oral contraceptive formulations does that.
I'm not sure at what point the number of FA methods become numerous enough to leave the listing to the FA article. Four seems to have precedence (per the cervical barriers example), but five might be too many (per the cervical cap example).
Per Coppertwig's comment, I'm leaning towards just adding the FAM and CCL brands of symptothermo to the article. Lyrl Talk C 15:13, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Condom image

The "three colored condoms" image was deleted on Commons as a copyright violation. Commons has some other pictures of condoms, but I'm not sure which one to use to replace the deleted image. Do others have a preference? Or some other source of a GNU-released picture? Lyrl Talk C 15:30, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

The best one, IMO, on the commons is Image:Préservatif enroulé.jpg. -Andrew c 18:18, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] im taking a minipill since january and my period was become abnormal it is possible to mke me pregnant?

im taking a minipill since january and my period was become abnormal? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.255.33.57 (talk) 20:23, 6 March 2007 (UTC).

You should contact your pharmacist or prescribing physician for matters of medical importance. Wikipedia should not be the place to go for personal medical advice. If you believe your primary method of birth control (the minipill) is failing and you are concerned about becoming pregnant, the best thing to do is to use a back of method of contraception (or two) to lower your chances of pregnancy (or stop having sex). However, please seek the advice of a medical professional in this matter.-Andrew c 23:24, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fertility awareness - specific methods

In the current version of the fertility awareness section, the Weschler symptothermo method is mentioned specifically in the first paragraph. The Billings and Creighton methods are mentioned specifically in the second paragraph. In opposition to the consensus reached in #Fertility awareness - primary signs and specific methods, the mention of Couple to Couple League has been deleted altogether, with the edit summary that CCL does not currently have an article on Wikipedia. Per my comments in the previous discussion, I support adding the CCL method as an example of symptothermo alongside Weschler's method.

If the section is going to link to specific methods, I believe it would be better to list them all together. Both Billings and Creighton have significantly sized non-Catholic target audiences (Billings is widely used in China, for example, not exactly a Catholic stronghold) and the Couple to Couple League's method, while it is not targeted to non-Catholics, is certainly picked up and used by non-Catholics: this buddy group provides instruction in both Weschler's and the CCL methods and recommends both books, despite being a thoroughly secular group. I do not understand why these methods have to be segregated away from Weschler's method.

Instead of presenting methods in either the first or second paragraph, perhaps they could all be listed at the end of the FA section in their own paragraph? Lyrl Talk C 21:01, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Just because something doesn't have a Wikipedia article isn't a reason not to mention it. I support mentioning the CCL method. Maybe at a later date there will be a Wikipedia article on it. Any of the ways you've suggested of handling it sound OK to me.
By the way, I question the statement that NFP refers specifically to methods approved by the Catholic church. I've used the term and that is not what I meant and it didn't occur to me that anybody might think that. Who uses it like that? I think it might be more accurate to say that NFP refers specifically to practices such as breastfeeding and periodic abstinence, while FA can involve practices some might not think of as "natural" such as using FA to schedule the use of barrier methods. The fact that the RCC approves of certain methods doesn't seem to me to be fundamental to the definition of NFP; if the RCC were to change their mind and start saying that periodic abstinence is sinful, (or less implausibly that certain practices such as using a thermometer for FA purposes is sinful) would the term "NFP" still refer to whatever the RCC then approves of? --Coppertwig 22:52, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
The definition of NFP varies depending on the source. It is very widely used interchangeably with FA. However, Toni Weschler in her book defines NFP as excluding the use of barrier methods, relying only on abstinence during fertile times to avoid pregnancy. The Couple to Couple League specifies that couples who engage in non-intercourse sexual acts are not practicing NFP. The website of the Canadian organization Serena says "Using condoms, diaphragms, spermicides or withdrawal during the fertile time is not natural family planning," and also appears to be strongly pro-life. From an earlier discussion with an editor familiar with the Billings organization, I gather that their position is that non-intercourse sexual acts are "incompatible with correct use" but not strictly prohibited. The founders of the organization, John and Evelyn Billings, are Catholic and developed the method while working for the Catholic Church. Regarding the definition of NFP, I am unaware of the position of Creighton, but it is based from the Pope Paul IV Institute (so strong Catholic connections).
Despite the fact that the term is most commonly used interchangably with FA (Wikipedia's normal guideline), I have tended to use this "religiously motivated" definition because of Wikipedia's naming conventions "Use the name(s) and terminology that the individual or organization themselves use." Organizations that call their method NFP all appear to be associated with the Catholic Church and to associate religiously-based restrictions on its use. Lyrl Talk C 23:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Methods that are widely considered "natural" but that the RCC does not approve of (such as withdrawal) are already excluded from the definition of NFP. (Also see natural birth control.) I imagine that if RCC teaching changed, the Church would attempt to drag popular definition of the term NFP along with their change. It might be unsuccessful, but that's another issue. Lyrl Talk C 23:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

It's fine to list various methods, but it is important to state which are taught as NFP/abstinence-only, and which are taught as a standalone method of FA. The simplest way to do that is to list the NFP-taught methods in the NFP paragraph. However I think it is important to draw the line somewhere: if you look at the Natural Family Planning article, there are many, many "methods" being taught by various organizations, and I don't think it's appropriate or necessary to list every single one. I think the ones we have listed as of now are sufficient. Joie de Vivre 20:35, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I propose that the line be drawn at methods that are used by large numbers of people, preferably internationally. The Couple to Couple League is an international organization (24 countries) and is the largest NFP organization in the United States, teaching their version of the symptothermal method to almost 8,000 couples in 2004 alone [1]. The only other international organization in the NFP article is Family of the Americas, which teaches the Billings method (already listed in this article). So to my understanding, drawing the line at international methods used by large numbers of people does not have a danger of overwhelming the FA section with a list of methods. I propose including Ms. Weschler's system, even though it has limited international scope, because her book has been so overwhelmingly popular. The Marquette and Two-Day Methods are the only other international methods I am aware of - see my analysis at #Fertility awareness - primary signs and specific methods for why I concluded they should not be included in this article.
To me, it seems much more continuous to list all the methods together. I find it awkward to have them in two separate lists. A note along the lines of "some organizations include religious content in their fertility awareness classes" I would be fine with. However, I object to singling out methods as "these methods are only taught as NFP". Firstly, saying Billings and Creighton are taught as abstinence-only systems is like saying Habitat for Humanity only builds houses for people who convert to Christianity. The fact that these organizations have leadership that is devoutly Christian in no way means they enforce that upon the people they train as leaders or the people they provide services to. Secondly, while the organization of the Couple to Couple League does include religious content in their programs (unlike Billings or Creighton), the method itself - that explained by the secular charting group at weddingchannel.com - is just a set of rules that has no religious connotations about abstinence or anything else. The method can be learned without ever encountering religious material, so the method itself should not be identified as NFP-only.Lyrl Talk C 22:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I think it's good to list the BOM and the CM here, because there is no religious content in the classes. However, someone wants to learn about specifically NFP methods they can click on the NFP article. It's not necessary to include the CCL method here because it includes religious content and is more specifically Catholic NFP. "Including the CCL method" should not be used as a pretext to blur the distinction between those methods developed without any background in Catholicism, those developed by Catholics but taught fairly secularly, and those taught with religious intent. The paragraph does a good job of that, and I think the distinction should be maintained. Joie de Vivre 17:27, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I prefer working through issues exclusively on Talk pages. Part of our conversation is now only in our edit summaries, so others who would like to express their opinion can't see the full background. I do appreciate Joie de Vivre coming back to the Talk page, though.
I'm not understanding why a large (at least within the FA/NFP community), international organization with a distinct set of symptothermal rules should not be included in a list of prominent FA methods. I am having trouble understanding Joie de Vivre's reason for excluding them. [Speculation on reasoning removed] I certainly agree they should not be characterized as a secular organization. But surely we can find a way to acknowledge their religious attitude without discounting their importance? Lyrl Talk C 19:07, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I feel compelled to remind you of Wikipedia:No personal attacks: "Comment on content, not on the contributor." It should not be included in the list of FA methods because it is not taught as an FA method. BOM, CM, Weschler's methods are taught without religious content and can be categorized as FA. CCL method includes religious content and can only be considered NFP. Wikilink to the NFP article takes care of that. You destroyed the distinction between pure FA methods and the NFP paragraph. See you in 24 hours. Joie de Vivre 19:12, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I think the source of our disagreement is that I view NFP as a practice — actions done by a specific couple on a day-by-day basis — rather than a method, or rule set. The rule set that a couple uses - Billings, CCL, FAM, etc. - is independent of their decision to follow or not follow the restrictions associated with NFP. Whether or not they follow those restrictions, the fact that they are observing fertility signs and using a rule set to interpret them means they are practicing FA. So a couple can be using FA and NFP - NFP is not a method by itself.
Does that make sense? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lyrl (talk • contribs) 21:34, 18 March 2007 (UTC).
Lyrl did not personally attack anyone here. Please review what is considered a personal attack before making such a bold statement. "When there are disagreements about content, referring to other editors is not always a personal attack." Just because they referred to you does not mean they were attacking you. "The appropriate response to such statements is to address the issues of content rather than to accuse the other person of violating this [personal attack] policy." --pIrish 22:34, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Lyrl and I are discussing this on our own and as far as I can see there is no real conflict. Thanks for the link, I will remember it in the future. Sorry for the reverting disturbance. Joie de Vivre 22:41, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Since you can't seem to figure out what to do with the article, I requested to get this page fully protected until you stop fighting about what should and should not be on this page. What's worse about this whole thing is that you continue to edit the article in your favor before even coming to a consensus! That doesn't help solve anything and it only infuriates the other side and makes them less likely to change their position on the issue. Please, figure something out here, on this talk page, or take it over to dispute resolution and have a mediator/arbitrator step in and help. Thank you. --pIrish 22:25, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


(Undent) Yes, that makes a lot of sense. Lyrl, that is an excellent observation, one I had not quite discerned. You are absolutely right that the different methods are separate rule sets, and that individuals may incorporate those rule sets into a practice of NFP, or on their own, for birth control or for other reasons such as health monitoring. You are right that NFP is not a "method" of FA, I see it more as a behavioral system informed by religious beliefs. It is true that the different methods are indeed rule sets which may be used either in conjunction with religious beliefs or without them. The problem I see is in the way they are taught. The CCL is taught specifically as a method of NFP, and if you are learning the CCL method, you are being exposed to religious teachings. I feel that in this article, it is important to make it clear which are taught in a religious context and which are not. I feel that this serves two purposes: to empower people to avoid such teaching if they find it offensive, and to maintain a distinction between the meanings of FA and NFP.

I think it would be fine to include mention of the CCL method. It is indeed well-known and used by many people. However I feel it would be best to specify that this particular method includes religious content. I found this easiest to do by creating an FA paragraph and a NFP paragraph, and listing the NFP methods therein. I found that the sections became too bulky and repetetive if they were mixed together. Could we reinstate the previous version, and include a sentence at the end of the second paragraph about the CCL method, perhaps? Joie de Vivre 22:41, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I support tying CCL in as an NFP organization or otherwise mentioning the religious content of their classes. However, I'm unsure about classifying Billings and Creighton as NFP, because they are promoted to non-Catholics. But I don't want to imply they're secular, either, because of the Catholic leadership. I was trying to find a way to be ambiguous about their religious connections. Would you be willing to work along that line? Lyrl Talk C 01:43, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I appreciate the sentiment, but the ambiguity about the religious connections was what prompted me to make the change. The BOM website bills the method as NFP outright. The CM goes further, stating that "it is a system that it firmly based in a respect for... the integrity of marriage", with prominent links to the Pope Paul Institute. The CCL method includes Catholic content and is certainly NFP. My feeling is that it is important to differentiate between those with a Catholic background and those without, particularly since they all have varying levels of religious content. I think the paragraph explaining the term NFP is the best place for these. Joie de Vivre 23:30, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Regarding "billing the method as NFP", Katie Singer recently published a book Honoring Our Cycles: A Natural Family Planning Workbook [2], yet Singer is unconnected to the Catholic Church.
As far as people seeking FA information, and unexpectedly encountering religious information - I'm not convinced that's a danger. Classes from Billings and Creighton certified teachers are unlikely to contain any religious content - Kerry Hampton, for example, is a Billings teacher, but obviously does not follow Catholic teachings (she fits diaphragms). For the websites, if the name of a Pope, and a statement implying Creighton is marriage-strengthening are the most religious comments to be found, I'm not impressed. Both Toni Weschler and Katie Singer in their books talk about how periodic abstinence can strengthen a relationship; I don't believe the idea is religious in nature. Weschler specifically recommends that FA only be used by couples in a long-term committed relationship; while it's not cutting-edge PC to assume this kind of relationship involves a piece of paper issued by the government, I don't find targeting FA at married couples to be overtly religious, either. I'm also not impressed by a link to a site that contains some religious content - both Weshler's and Singer's books list places like CCL in their "Resources" sections, which are not segregated into FAM vs. NFP lists, but placed in simple alphabetical order by organization name.
As far as I am aware, people looking into Billings and Creighton either through the website or a local teacher are no more likely to come across religious content than people looking into Weschler's FAM. Following from this, I don't understand why these methods should be specifically categorized as NFP. Lyrl Talk C 02:05, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
They should be categorized as NFP, primarily because that is what they bill themselves as. End of story. Joie de Vivre 18:46, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

They are not using the definition of NFP described in the FA section. If Wikipedia is going to go with the "popular use" definition of NFP, and the definition Billings and Creighton (and now, apparently, Katie Singer) use in their outreach efforts, it does not include religious restrictions. In that case (a change of Wikipedia's definition of NFP to remove religious restrictions), I would have no objection to calling Billings and Creighton NFP. Lyrl Talk C 23:00, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I am so tired of arguing about this with you. Can't we just explain that the term NFP was coined by Catholics, that others have adopted its use, but that the term FA is more frequently used to mean non-religious, condom-OK-unmarried-OK, and NFP more frequently means Catholic, no-condom,-must-be-married,-penile-vaginal-only? Can't we explain that the CM and the CCL methods are religious in background and that the BOM, Weschler and Singer methods are more open? I honestly see a big difference between someone who teaches it as "this is a wonderful way to avoid pregnancy naturally", and someone who teaches it as "God said that everything else is forbidden." Joie de Vivre 14:45, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
There are certainly things we agree on - that NFP is more commonly used by Catholic groups, that FA has no religious connotations, that CCL teaches "God said that everything else is forbidden" and article references to CCL should make that clear. I agree this kind of strung-out debate is onerous, but I'm not sure how else to handle it. I'm open to ideas if others have dispute resolution suggestions.
For me, I see a big difference between an organization that outright states "sexual morality education" and "God's great gift of sexuality" are part of their "ministry" [3] and an organization whose founders apparently believe in Catholic morality, but whose fertility information pages contain no religious content (Billings, Creighton). I can agree to specifying secular organizations as secular, and "morality education" groups as religious. I do not agree with categorizing the "morality education" groups like CCL together with the "no religious commentary" groups like Billings and Creighton. Lyrl Talk C 01:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Since you still can't seem to come to a mutual decision (though not much dicussion has taken place here recently so I'm not sure if you're talking elsewhere or just not talking at all), I will, once again, bring up the page for dispute resolution. It can help you make your case and have an unbaised third party person help you work through things. --pIrish 20:45, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I am starting to wonder why the NFP methods need be listed at all. Joie de Vivre 16:35, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I would support not mentioning any specific methods, just leaving that to the FA article. Lyrl Talk C 00:29, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
How would not mentioning FA methods in the FA section improve the article? NFP and FA are not conjoined twins. Excluding the methods which are explicitly geared towards married Catholics does not necessitate excluding standalone FA methods that carry no religious or behavioral expectations in their teaching. Joie de Vivre 19:31, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Teaching a method to atheist Chinese populations without including religious content (as Billings does) is not exactly "geared toward married Catholics".
Not mentioning FA methods would resolve our conflict, and would not affect the article significantly. Lyrl Talk C 01:52, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I wouldn't have any problem with including Billings. I also wouldn't have a problem including CCL and CM and the other NFP methods if we were just to briefly note which ones include Catholic messages in their teaching. Why can't we do that? FA in general is so little-known (and so useful) that I think it'd be a real shame to remove their mention from the article. More people will read the Birth control article, and fewer people will bother to click through onto the NFP or FA articles. I think increasing public knowledge of FA could be achieved here by including the most popular systems.
What if it went like this:
Fertility awareness (FA) methods involve a woman's observation and charting of one or more of her body's primary fertility signs, to determine the fertile and infertile phases of her cycle. Unprotected sex is restricted to the least fertile period. During the most fertile period, barrier methods may be availed, or she may abstain from intercourse. Different methods track one or more of the three primary fertility signs:[10] changes in basal body temperature, in cervical mucus, and in cervical position, though cervical position is most frequently used as a cross-reference with one or both of the others. If a woman tracks both basal body temperature and another primary sign, the method is referred to as symptothermal, one such method is taught by Toni Weschler. Other bodily cues such as mittelschmerz are considered secondary indicators. A woman may chart these events on paper or with software.
The term natural family planning (NFP) is sometimes used to refer to any use of FA methods. However, this term specifically refers to the practices which are permitted by the Roman Catholic Church — breastfeeding infertility, and periodic abstinence during fertile times. FA methods may be used by NFP users to identify these fertile times. Various systems are taught as NFP: the Couple to Couple League teaches a symptothermal method, while the Billings Ovulation Method and the Creighton Model are based on mucus observation alone. Some NFP teachers and organizations include religious content in their classes.
Pretty please? Have I misunderstood any of your concerns? Does this address them? I too would love to get this resolved. Joie de Vivre 23:57, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Subheader for navigation

It's better, because it does not outright say Billings and Creighton include religious content. However, I still object to presenting them separately from Weschler's system. My objections to specifying Billings and Creighton as NFP are twofold: 1)they do not use the definition of NFP that Wikipedia is using, and 2)the methods themselves can be (and sometimes are) taught outside of an NFP context.

The term NFP is defined differently by different organizations. Some organizations, such as CCL, include the Catholic behavior restrictions as part of NFP. Other organizations, such as Billings and Creighton, appear to define NFP as the observational method itself, and to consider the behavior restrictions as separate aspects of the Catholic faith not integral to NFP. It is misleading to define NFP with the CCL definition and then say Billings and Creighton are "taught as NFP". It falsely implies they use the same definition that CCL does.

Saying the methods are "taught as NFP" also misleadingly excludes teaching of the methods outside of their original organizations. Examples include the promotion of the CCL method on weddingchannel.com, and Billing's practice of giving official teaching licenses to all comers, resulting in secular teachers of the Billings method. These avenues are certainly not teaching these methods as NFP. Lyrl Talk C 01:47, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

What about adding to the end of the current section: The Roman Catholic Church has dominated the development of fertility awareness methods. While numbers of secular teachers such as Toni Weschler are increasing, currently even organizations that do not include religious content in their classes may have connections to this Church.Lyrl Talk C 01:54, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I like the general idea of identifying the RCC's involvement with the research and development of FA methods. I am not pleased I feel uncomfortable with the wording "has dominated", also "numbers of secular teachers... are increasing" is somewhat speculative. How about this:
Some NFP organizations include religious content in their classes. Those that do not may still be run by practicing Catholics.
The phrase "connections to this Church" is really vague. Can't we be more specific about the nature of those "connections"? Joie de Vivre 15:33, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Just add that on to the end of the current last paragraph of the FA section (that lists all the methods, including Weschler's)? That would work for me. Lyrl Talk C 01:32, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
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