Talk:Bioresonance therapy

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I redacted this from an IP contributor:-

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Contents

[edit] However

There is no evidence supplied above that bioresonance therapy does not work, it seems the information has been supplied to undermine the therapy without any facts. Bioresonance is practiced around the globe by individual practictioners and doctors. If the therapy had no merit it would not be widely available. There may be some cases of unscrupulous practictioners however this true in every profession and not exclusive to this practice. The above information claims devices continue to be sold despite efforts by trading standards officers, however suppliers of the equipment are freely available on the internet, it is hardly any underground movement. The above comments should be removed.

[edit] Bioresonance Explained

All cells, organs, bones, muscles and tissue vibrate at their own rate or frequency and in complete harmony and make up the Body Energy Field (BEF). Therefore the whole body has a complex frequency make up which can change or become distorted when affected by illness or toxic substances.

Bioresonance makes use of a the body's own electro-magnetic signals, alters them and then feeds them back into the body as therapy to restore health or combat illness. Usually the signals are inverted so that peaks of electro-magnetic waves become troughs and vice-versa. Feeding this altered signal back into the body cancels out the pathological electronic information coming from viruses, bacteria, and chemical toxins. This causes the cells of the body to start pushing out and eliminating these disease-causing factors, and so the root causes of disease are removed from the body and healing can take place.

Bioresonance therapy can deal with the real, underlying causes of chronic and degenerative diseases. According to a scientist, Pschinger, the real cause of chronic disease is the accumulation of different kinds of toxins in the connective tissue, i.e. the space between the cells in the tissues of the body. Accumulated toxins block the cells' ability to receive oxygen, nutrients and eliminate metabolic wastes. The toxins eventually enter the cells and produce symptoms of chronic illness.

The human body generates long-wave magnetic fields itself, e.g. when our heart beats. The oscillation energy of such fields results in regeneration, circulation and defence against infections in our cells. Best known of these are the currents flowing in the heart. They can be recorded on an ECG and from the curve produced it is possible to ascertain a normal function or to recognise heart diseases. In the same way that the heart produces its own bioelectrical signature pattern so do the other organs and systems within the body (e.g. brain,muscles, respiratory system etc).Bioresonance is a biofeedback therapy which can target, stimulate and boost the various bioelectrical signature patterns produced by the body to restore health and combat illness.


" I think it is complete bollux, and certainly taking someone with an abnormal ECG (electrical, not magnetic) and throwing electricity at them in an effort to make their heart normal again is not a technique of any credibility, but someone may wish to pick at it piece by piece, identifiying and listing the logical fallacies and seeking citations for those things adduced as facts. Midgley 11:48, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, the quoted text comes from the Bioresonance Therapy page at www.newwaysclinic.com. Tearlach 10:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite

This article is unreadable and makes not a lot of sense.

Rewrite should include + objective description of the theory of Bio Resonance. + How it is applied (reiki, reflexology, electrical-based solutions, ...) + Benefits + Scepticism could be added. This is healthy when proof is difficult. However since Bioresonance is used by such agencies such a NASA there may be some grounds behind it (doesn't necessarily mean anything though).

swear words and unwarranted accusations do not help people make their own mind up as to whether the subject is believable or not

Hello ! The german article is far better in my humble opinion. i may translate it into "ugly" english. but a native english-speaking person must correct my spelling after my translating. BTW: the french article is also better than this english stub version. michael Redecke 11:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

i just translated it. please check for errors. Redecke 21:01, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


--> I have just reviewed it. Tried to add some impartiality to the document, too. (it is not for the writer to pass judgement)

--> I can't find the French page - can you point me to it?

sorry, was a mistake. there is no french page, but a dutch one. i was working for another german article and i confounded them. michael Redecke 13:14, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

g1970: Made some further improvement but in general agree with your modifications.

g1970: I contest that the link to quackwatch is incendiary and biased and just as much without identifiable proof but then so are the other links to external sites. (I'm new to working on content so I don't yet do things according to the rules). I think we're done for the moment, thanks for the help.

hello g1970 !

  • lets take a look to this sentence: ...The device then emits alternating currents...(your version). my comment: this is possible. but where is the proof ? and i agree that it should be possible to measure easely such currents. (i studied electric engineering and human medicine), i left medicine however a long time ago, i am not a doctor anymore and i am working as the owner of a company producing measuring equipment. so its my job... but: where are the results of such a test you are talking about ? i havent seen any so far.

g1970 -> Agreed, I am not in Bioresonance field and I have not looked for this. However, if you mention electrodes, you know something will be receive, and a receiver is very easily transformed into a transmitter...


  • other issue: quackwatch-link by barrett. the shown instruments on that page are in part bioresonance-decvices. so this page is clearly related to this article.

g1970 -> Linked (which is why I leave it now) but clearly inflamatory (ie not trying to demonstrate anything, but bringing personal judgement into the equation)


  • other question: ...The concept commonly explained is that the cells' natural resonance (ie bio-resonance) modulates the signal when it travels through the human tissues, and the response is monitored.... here your commonly means: view of the manufacturer/user, not science or medicine.

g1970 -> agreed. Only people involved would be sensible to try and propose an explanation. I agree to not being one of them although I have had a Bioresonance scan and the reading, without the person knowing any of my background, was surprisingly personal (ie could not apply to anyone like common horoscopes) and pinpointed highlight. I had never met the practitioner before either. I am a skeptic at the best of times, too, but ready to give things a go to judge for myself. I have to admit I was surprised.

a cell's natural resonance is a completely unknown feature in biology or medicine, its travel also.

g1970 -> Cell's natural resonance. I'm not sure it is completely unknown, but not often measured. More info on magnetic resonance at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MRI . g1970 -> Magnetic interference is a known phenomenon too. example here: http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/26612 g1970 -> However, since I'm not an expert, I can of course confirm that bioresonance is supposed to work from this.

what do you mean ? travel of what ? what are your references ?

g1970 -> Travel refers to the signal. that's why it is refered to as current ;-). Physically speaking, electrical current refers to the short displacement of electrical charges, but this is transmitted over a long distance easily through a conductor, like the body. Magnetic current is directly linked to electrical current (I don't remember the equation though).

we may agree saying: in the view of bioresonance device manufacturer, cells are to considered as resonating objects (with unknown frequency and energy however).

g1970 -> partly agree. 1. the resonating objects are not only the cells but the elements of the cells as well as the whole of a cell group etc... and 2. although I don't have the time to look for reference I'm sure cell resonance has been measured already (although since I can't back up my claim I'll shut up).

g1970 -> In addition, this sentence removes the indication that there is an interference caused to the signal by the resonance of the cell, which is, in magnetic or electrical terms, a subject demonstrated in many schools.

(btw i wrote my tesis about problems related circadian rhythms in man, so i known a bit about rhythms)

g1970 -> sounds interesting, and partly related?

Hypotheses of FA.Popp, George Lakhovsky hould not be the base for a wikipedia article. michael Redecke 15:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

g1970 -> I don't understand the hypothesis reference here (in fact it would be useful if there references in the document could be linked to an outside website, ideally, if possible.


g1970 -> Actually I'm wondering if we should add these for good measure: http://www.theqxci.com/faq.php#1 http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Tests/xrroidsuit.html

==Membrane fluctuations in erythrocytes are linked to MgATP-dependent dynamic assembly of the membrane skeleton.

[edit] S Levin and R Korenstein study

this study is interesting, but has nothing to do with bioresonance. The word bioresonance can not be found in that text, and this is also the case for the word electric. The authors are not describing any electric or resonance phenomenon at all. Redecke 00:26, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Partially correct. However the study clearly mentions " the observation of low-frequency fluctuations of the cell membrane in erythrocytes and in several nucleated cells '(white blood cell)' suggest that this phenomenon may be a general property of the living cell". The term frequency is evident. The article , as it stands, states " cells are to considered as resonating objects (with unknown frequency and energy however) ". What the researchers have observed is that cells membrane fluctuate at a low-frequency. The word fluctuation means a motion like that of waves, recurrent and often more or less cyclic alteration, that implies a frequency and energy. The study clearly shows that these fluctuations have a pattern and occur at a low-frequency so it does provide some evidenciary support for what manufacturers are saying. To rule out the study because it does not include the word electric or bioresonance is being too selective and certainly showing a POV in the editing. It is likely that the researchers in the above study were not trying to prove bioresonance as such and they simply observed, as good researchers do, what happened under their instruments. Finally if you read the study you will note that the authors suggest that the dominant component of cell membrane fluctuations depends on the mechanochemical dynamic assembly of the membrane skeleton induced by the presence of mgATP, clearly they are talking about a mechanism involving energy. While the exact nature of that energy is not yet determined, you cannot rule out the possibility that there could be an electrical component to this effect. In fact other study have shown that mgATP not only produce energy but also act as a cyclotron at a molecular level and that such a cyclotron interact in a resonant manner with electrical fields in biological systems.NATTO 01:13, 2 October 2006 (UTC) ( added comment merged )
I agree with Redecke that it's irrelevant. In any case, it's WP:OR - assembling background material to argue a novel interpretation ("A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article). [1]. (And very shaky background at that; the cyclotron citation tracks back to Corentin Louis Kervran's transmutation theory, which is hardly accepted science). If you can find a reputable third party source saying the Levin and Korenstein study is relevant to bioresonance, fine. Otherwise... 86.142.249.213 07:54, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Anon 86.142.249.213|86.142.249.213. No argument was made in the article - only results of research on biological system listed. Of course we would not want to let facts get in the way of prejudice. Interesting to note that the only references in this article are one sided. I wonder why ? Hum let me think ? AR NATTO 10:57, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
hello natto ! I started to collect data related to bioresonance many years ago, and I never saw any scientific study supporting the bioresonance-concept. That is the simply reason why I am unable to add any neutral pro-bioresonsnace link. Morell (who died in 1990) was a senior scientology member here in Germany, and many companies producing BR-devices over here are linked to scientology (Regumed/Brüggemann). Morell was described in a german scientology-newspaper (College) as a high rank scientologist, and Brüggemann is member of IAS international association of scientologists as a Patron (>40.000 USD donations to COS). Redecke 12:58, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Hello Redecke. I do not know if there are studies directly corroborating bioresonance as described above. You say there are none and that is fine because I do not have a point of view on the issue and I am more or less neutral regarding Scientology. People can and will believe what suits them. However I always remember the words of Carl Sagan " Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence ", in addition there is at least some scientific evidence to support the fact that human red and white cells do "resonate" at a low frequency and that this cyclical fluctuation is driven by energy though the mgATP mechanism ( a well accepted scientific mechanism ) and that electrical energy may be involved. That is what the studies mentioned showed. Whether this cell "resonance" has anything to do with what the manufacturers of bioresonance devices claim, that is another matter entirely. I simply think that valid studies in peer-reviewed journals should not be ignored because there are no studies supporting the effectiveness of bioresonance devices. Please lets keep an open mind on this issue so we do not throw the baby with the water. :-) NATTO 19:43, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
We put things in an encyclopaedia becuase there is evidence they happen, not becuase there is no evidence they do not. Low frequency and high frequency are less useful descriptions fo this than the frequency, in Hz. The Rife stuff was radio frequency, IE MHz range. I am unconvinced, but without reading the article cited, that the phenomenom of _resonance_ rather than an _oscillation_ is being discussed, teh two being different. Midgley 20:58, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
My previous discussion was with Redecke who appears to have at least reserched the issue instead of issuing broad statements based on his POV. If you first took time to read the study you would have noted that the frequencies are clearly noted in the study, between 0.2 to 30 Hz. Whether you are unconvinced or not is not the point and certainly humanity is not waiting for that. The point is that there is peer-reviewed research that has been done demonstrating that red and white cells do "resonate" at the above frequencies and that "resonance" is driven by an energy producing mechanism based on mgATP reactions. Nothing more , nothing less. This is published and corroborated by other studies. NATTO 22:00, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Many people have studied BR in the past, especially over here from where BR is coming. So, there has been published a lot of stuff (scientific and not-scientific articles) about that bioresonance, and I am sorry to say that I am unable to present any work showing that BR's results are reproducible or suited for a serious diagnosis in medicine. BR is used in alternative medicine for diagnostic and therapeutical purposes. And for this reason a medical test or therapy must show that it is at the same time harmless and effective. Some people may argue that the effectiveness of a medical test must not be proven in a scientific way, if it has been shown that it is (at least) harmless. A new method must always show it's effectiveness, and I don't ask you NATTO for instance to prove me or to show me a well-made study showing that lemonjuice is not effective for treatment of hair-loss, otherwise I would say: lemonjuice is effective because nobody could prove that it is not. Resonance: every object has ist own (mechanical) resonance-frequency für sound waves, even my computer-mouse on my desktop or a pencil. This fact does not link any pencil to BR. Electric currents-conducting objects have furthermore a high-frequency resonance frequency related to it's length and the speed of light. So every paper-clip made out of metal has it's own frequency and my eye-glasses have also their own. The human body has also a resonant frequency (better to say range) related to the length. I am 1.85 m and my frequency is around 81 MHz (VHF). And a single isolated RBC will resonate the best (7µm) at 21,4 GHz (microwaves). These values may differ a bit (a few percent) because the speed of electromagnetic waves will be higher than in air in this case. I was talking about scientology to show not only the links between Hubbards E-meter and BR-devices, but to show also the link to scientologists (at least here in Germany). Some BR-devices have been opened and analyzed (at least one by an engineer) and reports about their construction were published. In at least two cases, a resistor-measuring circuit has been found (Hörner M 1995 and Lee C 1997). This leads us to suppose that BR is based on the same principle than the well known lie-detector (the classic lie-detector as used in the USA usually uses some more parameters however), E-meter (has also been opened several times) and EAV-devices according to Voll (principle is well known). Again S Levin and R Korenstein study: I repeat: their work has nothing to do with BR. We cannot include a link to every study containing the word resonance or frequency hoping that it has somethink to do with BR. Michael Redecke 15:01, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Redecke. Thank you for the information. Resonance is thus an accepted fact in biological systems. My point is that this information, should be included with references from peer-reviewed studies, in the article. The proven scientific reality is one thing. the claims ( unproven or otherwise ) made by the manufacturers of BR devices is another. One does not exclude the other. Again we are not here to present a POV over another but to neutrally present all sides of the issue. By including peer-reviewed evidence that resonance is a reality in bilogical system with evidence as to some of the mechanisms of action involved, I simply wanted to allow the reader to be informed such, with other relevant information, so they can make up their own mind as per WP:NPOV. Thanks again for your open minded approach :-) NATTO 23:23, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
No; it still falls foul of Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position. That the Levin and Korenstein study can be interpreted as supporting bioresonance (about which it says nothing) is your original assertion, not that of any reliable third-party source. 81.155.126.4 16:04, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Resonance is driven by an external source of energy. Sing into a wine glass, the resonance doesn't depend upon a source of energy within the glass. Spontaneous oscillation is what is being described, and I'm not convinced that it is oscillation in anything like the radio/audio electrical sense that is being discussed in relation to cells. ATP is the cell's main energy source for anything. THe characteristic of this sort of health fraud is that technical terms are used in ways that almost seem to make sense, but eitehr deliberately or due to ignorance are not in fact accurately applied. Midgley 21:34, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WP used for Scamming

This article is at present offensively bad, not just the semi-literate writing or the pseudoscientific waffle, but the reintroduction of arrant nonsense with the apparent aim of getting credibility in Google searches from WP. Midgley 21:04, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

While I agree that the article needs improvements, more balance and less POV based on one's world view, peer-reviewed research posted on Pubmed is valid information that can be cited in WP. It is not the job of editors to decide if they like the research or not. It is verifiable and credible. NATTO 22:00, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree: this article contains statements I have never heard from a BR-related company or a supporter of bioresonance. I will try to compile a short text citing precisely what the BR-device producing industry is telling us or claiming. At the same time I will write a short text with facts known about BR from a neutral point of view. I will need about 2 days, and I will present these two text here on the discussion page. concerning studies: many are in german only, some have been payed by the manufacturer of br-devices and some have a very low quality. So: not every study is citable. Redecke 15:17, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Differentiation

This article is so vague that I doubt most readers could fundamentally separate the article's "Mode of Operation" section from accepted "medical miracle" therapies such as "Electrical Stimulation of Bone Healing"--I'clast 05:11, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Good point. According to the article ( as written at the moment ) manufacturers describe cells as resonating objects (with unknown frequency and energy however) having a natural resonance (ie bio-resonance). If there is research to support that explanation it should be provided in the article as it is of relevance to the topic of the article. There is proven evidence that human cell membrane actually "fluctuates" at a frequency between 02. and 30 Hz and the fluctuation are driven by an biological energy producing system called MgATP. That is basically what manufacturers of the device are saying.
If on the other hand there is peer-reviewed research proving that cells do not have this property then it should also be included. Either way it is relevant. NATTO 07:21, 3 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Statements made by br-devices manufacturer and supporters

(translation made from german texts into ugly English, citations in ) Franz Morell (inventor) explaining his bioresonance: ...basic principle is deletion of pathologic information, that is stored inside the body - precisely within the body fluids (intracellular and extracellular) or stored in the DNA within the cell nucleus.....and he adds: ......Deletion of pathologic electromagnetic waves by inverting them and retransmitting them back into the body....According to Morell, the human body is able to produce healthy (=harmonic) em waves and pathologic (disharmonic) em waves. A br-device is able to detect these waves, and a Separator called circuit is able to distinguish between them, and able to invert only the diharmonic waves. Morell gives no description of that separator. The addition of the disharmonic waves present in the body and the artificial inverted waves from the br-device should end in a deletion of the disharmonic waves. It is impotant to know that Morell distinguishes between a preceding measuring phase and a later therapy phase The reaction of the br-device transforming the incoming signals into the follwing healing waves is called -bioresonance by own waves- by Morell. Brüggemann who (I suppose) copied Morells idea, and who used the word BICOM instead of bioresonance (I suppose to avoid legal actions) for his devices, said: ...electromagnetic steering waves are surrounding the body and are present in it and via the electrodes and cables they can be transferred into the bicom-device. They contain exactly the physiological and pathologic information needed for a individual therapeutical signal. It is the aim of the therapy to reduce pathologic information or even to delete it, and eventually to reinforce physiological information. Inside a bicom device these signals are separated through a filter and inverted electronically. The inverted pathological signal will be retransmitted to the patient and will overlay the signals present.....regulating forces within the body will be disburded.... Later Morell introduced in the eighties another device, using light (red,yellow and blue), the Mora-color therapy. (voices from not BR-related experts will follow tomorrow) Redecke 16:43, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Redecke. There is mention of harmonic waves. We know that healthy cell membranes do produce "fluctuations" at a specific frequency range under an energy producing system . Frequencies are of course characteristics of waves. I have not done a thorough pubmed search on published research on the above topic but there seem to be a reasonable amount of it. As mentioned earlier this in itself does not prove that BR devices are effective or do what they are claim to do but it is still valid evidence that there is a biological reality involved. NATTO 23:30, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
"Frequencies are of course characteristics of waves" is one of those phrases which causes me to wonder whether the person uttering them has any idea what they are discussing. There is a logical fallacy in there of course. As examples of one thing wrong with the idea consider for instance is there an autistic wave? autism (frequency), is Smallpox which declined in frequency after Edward Jenner invented vaccination a wave or even oscillatory in nature? Midgley 21:18, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Of course I was referring to the number of repetitions of a periodic process in a unit of time Definition of frequency and a : a disturbance or variation that transfers energy progressively from point to point in a medium and that may take the form of an elastic deformation or of a variation of pressure, electrical or magnetic intensity, electrical potential, or temperature b : one complete cycle of such a disturbance Definition of wave. All in the context of the above comments by User:Redecke. NATTO 00:08, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What about these studies then ?

Forsch Komplementarmed. 2006 Feb;13(1):28-34. Epub 2006 Jan 3.

Placebo-controlled study of the effects of a standardized MORA bioresonance therapy on functional gastrointestinal complaints

Article in German] Nienhaus J, Galle M. Internistisch-naturheilkundliche Praxis, Mulheim, Deutschland.

BACKGROUND AND OBJECTIVE: Many practitioners of natural medicine as well as a non-controlled study have reported about positive effects of MORA bioresonance therapy on psychosomatic diseases. The present placebo controlled study aimed to test the effects of MORA bioresonance therapy on non-organic gastro-intestinal complaints. PATIENTS AND METHODS: A randomized, placebo controlled study was carried out on 20 participants (10 in the placebo group, 10 in the verum group). The main outcome parameters were the patients' and the physician's estimation of the intensity and frequency of gastro-intestinal complaints as well as the examination results recorded by the physician: stomach pain by palpation, meteorism by percussion and intestinal noise by auscultation, assessed pre and post treatment. Secondary outcome parameters were the electric resistance between hands and feet, data from feces, urine and blood, and the subjective general condition of body, mind and soul. RESULTS: According to the participants' and the physician's estimation the intensity and frequency of the gastro-intestinalcomplaints were markedly and significantly reduced in theverum group (p < 0.01). This was also true for stomach pain(p < 0.01) and meteorism (p < 0.05), but not for intestinal noise (p > 0.05). The main outcome parameters in the placebo group changed only slightly (p > 0.05). CONCLUSION: TheMORA bioresonance therapy can markedly improve non-organic gastro-intestinal complaints.

[2]PMID: 16582548 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

And

Effect of bioresonance therapy on antioxidant system in lymphocytes in patients with rheumatoid arthritis.

"Changes in the lymphocyte antioxidant system indicate that bioresonance therapy activates nonspecific protective mechanisms in patients with rheumatoid arthritis."


[3]PMID: 12511993

and


Low-frequency electromagnetic stimulation may lead to regression of Morris hepatoma in buffalo rats.

"CONCLUSIONS: We cannot exclude the possibility that LF-EM signals transmitted via BRT into the tumor-bearers may stimulate two separate processes: effective immunological response and/or tumor-cell death. The method appears to be capable of inducing the regression of transplantable hepatoma in vivo, thus is a potential subject of further studies."

[4]PMID: 15165406

Or

New approaches to diagnosis and treatment of fibromyalgia in spinal osteochondrosis

"RESULTS: The response was observed in both the groups, but in group 2 it occurred more frequently and earlier, was higher and longer. BRT produces no side effects, has no contraindications, acts on the body systemically. It is rather effective against symptoms of neurocirculatory dystonia frequently diagnosed in FM patients."


[5] PMID: 11494446


Does that meet with the approval of anon User:81.155.126.4 and User: Midgley ? NATTO 06:57, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I posted the above and have yet to receive a reply or feedback....NATTO 18:45, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
It does not. Midgley 19:25, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Then can User:Midgley explain why the above peer-reviewed studies are not acceptable and why they could not be part of the article on bioresonance therapy as an example of research on the subject ? After all the article already contains numerous references to studies, in the controversy section... NATTO 21:05, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Because it comes under original research: specifically synthesis of published material serving to advance a position. They're not merely examples of research; they're examples cherry-picked because they support bioresonance. This is why, to avoid this kind of POV pushing, Wikipedia doesn't work that way: see WP:RS#Some definitions: "In general, Wikipedia articles should not depend on primary sources but rather on reliable secondary sources that have made careful use of the primary-source material".86.141.84.89 22:41, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
So what about this line in the existing article: " Scientific studies [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] showed however that the bioresonce therapy could not show effects suppassing placebo-effects, and that the results were not reproducible." Linking to 8 separate studies showing that BRT does not work better than placebo ( of course placebo indiced results are still results but that is another matter ) ? The studies in question are the only references in the article.... Hum... Looks like a double standard to me, or at least an interpretation of WP policy to suit a point of view from some editors who already have a firm point of view on the subject. Finally the use of synthesis of published material serving to advance a position in this situation is a pure point of view from User:86.141.84.89 since the studies in question all prove that BRT is effective so it is not a collection of unrelated studies to try to make the point that BRT is effective as insinuated. NATTO 02:54, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Looks like a double standard to me
I: agree. So all concerned should abide by WP:RS and WP:NOR.
Finally the use of synthesis of published material serving to advance a position in this situation is a pure point of view from User:86.141.84.89 since the studies in question all prove that BRT is effective so it is not a collection of unrelated studies to try to make the point that BRT is effective as insinuated.
Bollocks. If you have no intention to spin the article, why cherry-pick examples that "prove that BRT is effective"? We've seen this all before. The question is, who to trust to be objective? Editors who edit a wide variety of articles, or those who join up and devote all their efforts to altie axe-grinding? (in your case, rubbishing QuackWatch and puffing bioresonance and Andrew Weil). 86.139.254.189 23:09, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
It would be nice if User:Midgley could post comments under his user name instead of using anon edits... I fully agree with applying WP policies including ASSUME GOOD FAITH instead of making accusations at other editors ! The article as it stands it clearly POV displaying the personal view of some editor(s). The way it is written there is no evidence in favor of BRT - This is clearly not true since there is such evidence. I have place a NPOV tag on the article as it stands NATTO 23:25, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm not Midgley; can't you tell the difference? There comes a time when it's difficult to assume good faith. We are supposed to be writing articles that reflect the best consensus of what reliable sources say about the subject. You, however, are persisting in collecting sources that reflect a pro-bioresonance view rather than sources of maximum reliability (ie real medical ones). The article isn't displaying the unsupported personal view of editors; it's displaying the mainstream view of reliable sources (for instance, the American Cancer Society's Electromagnetic Therapy page [6]).
I agree with you that the polemical tone could be diminished ("no evidence for claims" rather than "fraud"). Incidentally, the ACS page covers most of citation issues; and the The Bioresonance Practitioners Society [7] ought to be a reliable source for bioresonance therapists' own assertions of what the technique involves. If anyone has access to a copy, Edzard Ernst's The Desktop Guide to Complementary and Alternative Medicine: an Evidence-based Approach, has a section on bioresonance. 86.145.94.135 14:20, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
No. Especially since you are an anon who use various IP addresses (81.155.126.4., 86.141.84.89, 86.139.254.189, 86.145.94.135 ) and User:86.141.84.89 replied to a question put to User:Midgley. Before lecturing others you should look at yourself and you should also read WP:NPOV , especially the following:
"The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being the truth, and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one. It should also not be asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions."
I do not see anything in there about reflecting the best consensus. WP is not about reflecting only the majority opinion but about providing information based on verifiability. You are defending your point of view however your point of view is not the ONLY one. Since there is verifiable evidence as per WP:RS that BRT does work, WP policy dictate that it be included in the article. NATTO 16:48, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
WP:NPOV#Undue weight covers the situation fine. The big picture is that belief in the efficacy of bioresonance is a minority view and one not supported by the most reliable sources (ie mainstream real medical ones). The overall thrust of the article should reflect that, rather than it being a hand-picked defence of the concept. Incidentally, citation-tagging everything in an article is well in the territory of disruptive editing. It's not necessary to provide citation for things that are generally accepted (except by wackos). 86.145.94.223 11:48, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
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