Talk:Billy Bishop

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[edit] Battle with Richthofen

I recently made an edit that Bishop had not in fact fought the Red Baron on April 30, 1917. David Bashow and Dan McCaffery (both prominent Bishop historians) agree that while Bishop thought he had fought von Richthofen on that day, evidence reveals that Richthofen was actually on leave at the time. If anyone can find any strong evidence otherwise (post-2000), I would love to know where it's from. Ctimbury 23:15, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Victoria Cross

Did Billy Bishop deserve the Victoria Cross? No record of his feat was found in the German archives. His reputation for stretching the truth was well known.

The German archives don't describe all sorts of historically notable events, both because their records keeping was a disaster (something Hitler went out of his way to fix for the next war) and apparently due to embarassment over losses. I believe it was Moltke's circus that had just moved into the airbase in question, and I doubt he was particularily happy about this event so soon after arriving. Let's also not forget that Bishop's attack was by no means unique, pilots on all sides of the conflict pulled similar stunts throughout the war -- heck, it even forms a major scene in Dawn Patrol.
Simply put there is nothing unique about his claims in any way. Nor is the damage to his aircraft otherwise explainable. What is explainable is a 50-years-later retelling by pollitically correct writers who clearly didn't care about their facts while re-writing history. Yet, due largely to the fact that this is the most recent telling, this is the version people know.

Maury 12:46, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

While Bishop's feat was not unique, he had the distinction of being the first one to do it. I believe this is why his CO thought he deserved the VC. Al Lowe 22:46, 27 January 2006 (UTC)


[edit] How many siblings?

The Billy Bishop museum says that he was the middle child of three, while this page says that he was the third of four. Can anyone verify this?

I remember that this was changed in a very recent edit, and I didn't know enough to change it back. If his museum says he was the middle child of three, I would go by that rather than the recent edit. FranksValli 23:18, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

William Avery Bishop was the third of four children. He had two older brothers, Reginald Worth born in 1884 and Hiram Kilbourn born in 1886. Hiram died in 1893. William Avery was born in 1894 and his sister, Margaret Louise was born in 1895. SEDieter

So there were four children but one of them died before WAB was born. Should this be mentioned in the article or not? I don't know how these things are normally phrased. Cjrother 18:40, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bishop's Academic history

WHY does someone insist on perpuating the myth that Bishop was almost kicked out of RMC during his last year? This is false history, corrected in Knights of the Air, by Lieut-Col. David Bashow. His problems at RMC were during his first year, and in fact, his last year, he received a promotion. I sincerely hope that the "vandal" will check this out before trying again. Al Lowe 22:52, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Raymond Collishaw

Is it worth mentioning that Collishaw may have in fact, won more victories than Bishop (or for that matter, any other WWI aces)? According to the Collishaw article, some contemporary historians have placed his total number of victories (unverified) at 81, surpassing even the Red Baron. Though unproven, I think it ought to be given some credit here. --24.150.16.197 01:19, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd think that any discussion of unconfirmed victories for any pilot should be mentioned on HIS wikipedia page, not that of someone else. And as Hauptman Heidemann said in the movie, The Blue Max, "Unconfirmed by Army means UNCONFIRMED." Also, just an FYI, based on some sources I've come across, Bishop has at least 5, and may have as many as 20+ unconfirmed. This places his "unofficial" record at a minimum of 77, and at a max of 92. But again, these are unconfirmed claims. It's like playing handgrenades or horseshoes, close doesn't count. Neither do unconfirmed claims. Al Lowe 14:45, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
The Red Baron had unconfirmed kills too, so I agree with Albert. Confirmed kills are kills. Besides which, confirmed kills aren't really a precise indicator of a person's bravery or necessarily his skill as a pilot or marksman. Richtofen was, I though, only a "fair" pilot and not necessarily all that great a marksman, if one looks at number of rounds per kill. Way too easy to slip into revisionist history with stuff about kills or bullets per victim. I suggest we stick to the established facts as were known at the time. If we need to mention revisionism at all, let's do it in passing while keeping the emphasis on what can be solidly "proven."Michael Dorosh 15:02, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Early War Experiences

I removed the word "fortunately" from the sentence "During one flight, he badly injured his knee, his only injury of the war, and spent the summer recuperating in Britain, fortunately missing the Battle of the Somme." Unless someone wants to cite a source showing that he himself considered this to be a "fortunate" circumstance, it tends to imput a view of the incident to Bishop that he might not have had.Hi There 15:13, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Exactly,well done. Don't forget to sign your comments with four tildes in future (~~~~)Michael Dorosh 23:12, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wars and Horses

Re my edits today; in Canada, all official histories use the term "First World War" which I think is more appropriate for article concerned primarily with Canadian military history as this is. I also corrected the title of the Mississauga Horse (the word "Regiment" does not form part of the title) and added a description of the regiment as being a cavalry regiment. Likewise the 7th Canadian Mounted Rifles - my understanding is that the CMR units were nominally mounted, but actually served as dismounted infantry. Hence, the claim that Bishop found a "lack of action in the cavalry" reads incorrectly. I've deleted the reference to cavalry, and described the 7th CMR as "horse-mounted infantry" which may be incorrect - can anyone confirm if they were mounted at the time Bishop served in France with them? I also can't seem to find a reference to the 7th actually being employed in combat - there were four battalions of CMR, all employed as infantry, in the 3rd Canadian Division, but not the 7th.Michael Dorosh 15:08, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

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