Talk:Billie Holiday

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A Wikipedian removed Billie Holiday from the good article list. There are suggestions below for improving areas to satisfy the good article criteria. Once the objections are addressed, renominate the article as a good article. If you disagree with the objections, you can seek a review. Removal date: 15 Noember 2006

Contents 1 Work experience 2 Prison sentence 3 Nina Simone & Other Comparisons 4 Gay Icon Project 5 why is she such a legend? 6 Drugged Jazz 7 no albums ? 8 Featured Music Project evaluation 9 Billie Holiday 10 Unclear Sentence 11 Later Life and Death 12 Gross insensitivity 13 America's Top Model 14 GA Re-Review and In-line citations 15 Early Life Confusion 16 Source needed 17 Unfortunate choice of words 18 Teddy Wilson 19 Reasons for GA Delisting 20 NPOV 21 Trivia Section Dealt With 22 Discography 23 Bisexuality 24 Gloomy Sunday

[edit] Work experience

I just heard someone on the local NPR station say that her first job was working in a brothel cleaning but then switched to turning tricks when she found out how much money she could make. This person said this was important because the brothel was where she first heard jazz. --Gbleem 15:28, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Prison sentence

She's listed as a famous inmate of Federal_Industrial_Institute_for_Women. When did this occur? Kd5mdk 08:01, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

She was arrested in 1947 for heroin possession. That must be it. --SeanO 19:34, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nina Simone & Other Comparisons

Nina Simone rejected all comparisons with Billie Holiday, stating in 1997 interview: "Because she was a drug addict! They only compared me to her because we were both black - they never compared me to Maria Callas, and I'm more of a diva like her than anybody else." [1] Leland 22:19, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

---

Nina Simone, although I love her, is (how do I say) full of it. She's the only other person, besides Holiday, to credibly sing "Strange Fruit". That alone would invoke comparison.

If we want to compare Holiday to other singers:

• Holiday is similar to Louis Armstrong because she was able to do so much with such a poor instrument.
• Holiday is also similar to Charlie Parker and Chet Baker in that she was able to be a world class artist in spite of a serious addiction.
• Holiday probably should also be compared to Frank Sinatra for the way they both master phrasing in support of story telling.
• And maybe Edith Piaf, Leonard Cohen, or Jacques Brel for the ability to express painful emotion through song.

Gee this is fun. Does anybody else have additional/differing opinions? --SeanO 00:56, Apr 1, 2004 (UTC)

Sinatra admitted being influenced by Holliday, and he was an enthusiastic fan and supporter of her, helping to get her important engagements in the later part of her life when nightclub owners often were scared to hire her due to her reputation as a drug addict.

---

Noticed that my contribution on Nina Simone/Billy Holiday comparison got removed. Sorry, I'm new here, should have known to first take it to discussion, and I understand that by adding the piece to trivia other comparisons would have to follow.

I do think this comparison is an exceptional one because Nina refused such a compliment, even though she recorded a lot of billy holiday's songs and got a lot of credit for her recordings. But than again as stated, would be better in Nina's own section.

I find the first message-piece at the top of this heading (Nina Simone rejected all comparisons...) much better than my own unverified bit, so if you want to create a 'comparisons' heading after all, use that! Marcel flaubert 09:26, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gay Icon Project

In my effort to merge the now-deleted list from the article Gay icon to the Gay icons category, I have added this page to the category. I engaged in this effort as a "human script", adding everyone from the list to the category, bypassing the fact-checking stage. That is what I am relying on you to do. Please check the article Gay icon and make a judgment as to whether this person or group fits the category. By distributing this task from the regular editors of one article to the regular editors of several articles, I believe that the task of fact-checking this information can be expedited. Thank you very much. Philwelch 20:51, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think this connection would be very difficult to prove. I mean, I'm sure Holiday "has a significant following among the gay community," but to be fair, she has a significant following, period; how would it be possible to show she is specifically popular among gays? Uttaddmb 04:58, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't know if this is relevant, or potentially insulting, but I could see her probable bisexuality and "gutsiness"(for lack of a better word) possibly making her a gay icon along with being a generally popular figure.--T. Anthony 14:24, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Holiday definitely wasn't a lesbian. Actually, I believe she had relations with both men and women. I don't know if we can call her bisexual though, since all of her affairs with women took place during especially difficult times in her life. I know a lot of straight guys who have slept with men by accident after a night of heavy drinking. JakeHaMo 08:38, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] why is she such a legend?

if she had a 'little more than an octave', and by the end of her life her voice was battered by substance abuse, then why is she and her art so memorable? I always believed that having a unique, 'musically' impressive voice is not enough. Billie Holday's emotional availability and really astounding interpretation of any song she sung made her a hallmark in the history of modern American and world music. I read in some encyclopedia, I can't remember which one was it, that she introduced a new technique in singing and approaching a song that was unprecedented by women singers, and especially african-american singers. And I believe that is entirely true. In a very funny, ironical way she can be compared to Maria Callas, rather than Nina Simone. As much as Nina Simone would have loved to be compared to Maria Callas [I am not saying that Nina Simone lacks the talent or is not as great as Callas was] the comparison makes more sense if compared to Billie Holiday. Callas is dubbed by musicians and many Opera fans to have a 'bad voice', and even some go to the extent that she would in many of her songs sing off-key [although thats not very likely but anyways], what again is so remarkable about Callas is her interpretation. Callas dramatic, heart-wrenching performances captured anyone who came across her songs/arias. Her emotional intensity and 'rare' skill to actually 'act' the role she is singing, was something special and rare among female Opera singers [there are many Opera singers with great voices but poor skills of interpretation, and that gave Callas a very siginificant advantage], which made Callas such a legend. I remember I once read a quote for her, and it was about someone comparing to another Opera singer who has a much better voice, and she said 'she might have [i don't which kind of violin, but the best there is,as an insttument of voice], I have a regualr violin but I have Paganini playing', I think that sums it up, her voice might have been 'modest' and not very exceptional, very similar to Holiday's case, but she had the 'spirit' others lacked. Something that listeners to Holiday's music still feel today. One always have the feeling, when he/she listens to Billie Holiday, that this song or note was just sung two seconds ago, that the feeling is really felt. It sounds alive, very heart-felt. Sarah Vaughan had an exceptional, divine voice [i think that she is one of best voice to grace the musical scene for the past 100 years], and she never enjoyed the popularity and the fascination Holiday did. [disregarding her, Billie Holiday that is, infamous personal life which might have been interesting for gossip lines 40 years ago, but now what remains is just the music and that is what lives on] people were impressed by the beauty of Vaughan voice, but they were stunned by the emotional intensity of Holiday Ez212 00:27, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Drugged Jazz

Billie Holiday used drugs all her life. I do not believe she would be the same musician without it, just the same as if she were born a rich white kid! Her music comes from her experiences and her state of mind, which in most cases (as she seems to show in “Lady Sings the Blues") to be filled with pain and experience...she seems road weary if you will. Being a professional musician back then was a rough, poor, drugged experience. The music of the era seems to reflect this. I mean...what about Charlie Parker’s “Moose the Mooche”? It was about a guy that mooched off his stash.

As far as her musical technical ability, so what! She’s great! She has more style in her fingernail than many other musicians that have the ability. (I believe that Chet Baker sounded best on his horn when he had his teeth knocked out in prison.)

I love her music...she’s going to last forever :) 68.204.163.146 02:48, 13 January 2006 (UTC)Ryan

[edit] no albums ?

there clearly should be a list of her albums in this article...

[edit] Featured Music Project evaluation

Billie Holiday has been evaluated according to the Featured Music Project criteria, most recently affirmed as of this revision. The article's most important issues are listed below. Since this evaluation, the article may have been improved.

The following areas need work to meet the criteria: Lead - Comprehensiveness - Sales - Audio - References - Discography

The space below is for limited discussion on this article's prospects as a featured article candidate. Please take conversations to the article talk page.

• Lead: Too short, should be two-three full paragraphs
• Comprehensiveness: Musical influences and legacy, maybe make "Voice" a subsection of other aspects of musical style
• Sales: Not mentioned
• Audio: Should be worked into article body, and none should be external
• References: Need citations, more sources probably needed
• Discography: None
• Format/Style generally okay, but needs some work, don't end with a quote

how are you

[edit] Billie Holiday

Billie had parents in there teens

Their, not there. Ponijs

[edit] Unclear Sentence

"Clarence Holiday accepted paternity, but was hardly a responsible father. In the rare times she did see him, she would shake him down for money by threatening to tell his then-girlfriend that he had a daughter."

Who did this? As it stands, it sounds like Billie Holiday did this, but it would make more sense if her mother did. It should be clear one way or the other.

Also, the French version of the article contains more information. I'll probably incorporate at least some of it later today. BookishAcolyte 15:28, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

What would compel Lady Day to write an autobiography in the year 1956? Where can one find this autobiography?

[edit] Later Life and Death

In the section, "Later Life and Death", it says, "It is unclear who first introduced Holiday to the drug, but there is consensus from historians and contemporaneous sources that she began intravenous use sometime around 1940." In the third paragraph, it says, "She married trombonist Jimmy Monroe (a small drug dealer that introduced her to opium and heroin) on August 25, 1941." If it unclear who introduced Holiday to heroin, perhaps the speculation on Monroe should be dropped.

[edit] Gross insensitivity

The line in the Trivia Section "Was raped a couple of times" is extremely offensive in its flippant attitude towards something so serious. It should be corrected immediately; those kinds of details about a person's life should be taken care of with more care and placed in her Biography. It's not something that belongs in "Trivia."

Here here. It's disgraceful and shocking. I've tried to fix it. -- pde 00:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

For reference, the edit was by this anonymous vandal. pde

[edit] America's Top Model

Could I start a motion to remove the trivia item referring to Mercedes Yvette? I think it's irrelevant, uninteresting and verging on the ridiculous (not to put too fine a point on it). It totally lacks gravitas, and for me doesn't belong in this article. tmimh 21:37, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

It's an item of trivia, which by definition can be irrelevant, uninteresting and verging on the ridiculous.

I have not seen the America's Top Model episode where this occurred since I don't watch the show. However I don't see the harm in keeping it in, particularly if it occurred on the show. If anything, the inclusion of this information shows that the memory of Billie Holiday has penetrated a show whose generation grew up more than 50 years after her death. Ladydayelle 18:01, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA Re-Review and In-line citations

Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 02:52, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Early Life Confusion

The section on her early life has information that doesn't seem to fit together. If she was ten years old when she was sent to reform school how could she have been there for two years and then go somewhere else n 1925? If these events happenned in a different order then the pargraph could be edited to reflect that or to read in a more cohesive way.

[edit] Source needed

I've removed this:

She sometimes had friends call her "Bill." Gossip has it that she paid prostitutes to perform oral sex on her, which she called "french kissing." ^{[verification needed]}

...until someone can produce a source. Feel free to add it back in along with a proper source. — ripley\^talk 01:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unfortunate choice of words

In the section "Later life and the Verve sessions" I changed the words "unfortunate taste for" in the sentence By the 1950s Holiday's drug abuse, drinking, unfortunate taste for abusive men, and deteriorating health set her life on a slow and steady decline to "relations with". Hope I didn't hurt anyones feelings, it just sounded so condescending to me. Annaxt 11:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, thanks for changing it. This whole article has a bit of a condescending, sometimes chatty tone and could use some work IMO. Feel free to be bold in making changes as you see fit, and welcome to Wikipedia. — ripley\^talk 12:59, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

That is indeed an improvement. I had added the phrase "unfortunate taste for abusive men" as an (insufficiently bold) edit of its predecessor, "poor taste in abusive men".165.123.89.239 16:03, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Teddy Wilson

Good biography here but I'm surprised that there's so little discussion (i.e more detail) of musicians Billie Holiday worked with, and specifically Teddy Wilson. Her association with Wilson was extensive in the Columbia years, during which she recorded many hit records with his orchestra. References include [2] and [3]. --Jppigott 01:38, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reasons for GA Delisting

This article's GA status has been revoked because it fails criterion 2. b. of 'What is a Good Article?', which states;

(b) the citation of its sources using inline citations is required (this criterion is disputed by editors on Physics and Mathematics pages who have proposed a subject-specific guideline on citation, as well as some other editors — see talk page).

LuciferMorgan 00:55, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

I feel this article violates NPOV constantly by making value judgements and other prejudicial remarks, like the comment about Ms. Holiday's father etc.

[edit] Trivia Section Dealt With

I took the entire trivia section out of the article. I kept everything that I thought was important to the article or the reader's understanding of Miss Holiday. Some things (like the anecdote about Lester Young's death, the gardenia thing and the recently-added unsourced claim about Frank Sinatra) just didn't seem important or necessary to the article's success, so I got rid of them. I would support their re-addition to the article if we can smoothly merge them in, but having a "miscellaneous facts" addendum is quite unencyclopedic and ultimately is totally unnecessary. Comments are welcome; in fact, please comment before you revert or change something regarding this edit. SingCal 10:26, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Many pages like this have a section for trivia, small snippets of interesting information, and also where Billie Holiday is referenced in modern culture. For example, Regina Spektor wrote a song about Billie Holiday called "Lady" - that's a reference that I think should be mentioned, just as it is mentioned in James Ensor's biography that They Might Be Giants wrote a song about him.

--Elín 14:54, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree, but I think that we can do our best to integrate that information so that there's no specific "trivia" section. Many pages have a Cultural References section which might do well for this article's purposes if there are enough instances found. As for this Regina Spektor song, there's already a paragraph discussing tributes made by other artists, and it seems like that would be a fine place for it. It may be worth creating an "Influences and Tributes" section or something to that effect so these are better recognized. SingCal 19:23, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, trivia sections are not ideal ways of placing information -- important points should be incorporated into the text of the article. If there's no logical place to add any certain bit of trivia, then it probably doesn't belong in the article at all. Remember that an encyclopedia is a broad-brush overview of a topic, not every scrap of information in existence. — e. ripley\^talk 17:32, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discography

I think the discography in this article is excessive. It includes some albums more than once ("Billie's Blues" is listed at least 4 times), it includes multiple versions of the same album ("Quintessential Volume 1" and "Quintessential Volumes 1, 2, and 3 Box Set"), and I think it's much too long. I also think the distinction between US releases and imports is much less important today, when you can buy a CD online, than it may have been when record stores had limited selections of LPs and imports were hard to find.
I suggest that we take a cue from the Charlie Parker article. The discography in the main article was shortened to a description of the three labels for which he made most of his recordings and a small number of important live recordings. The rest of the discography was moved to Charlie Parker Discography, which mentions the important collections of studio recordings and has a longer list of live recordings.
For Holiday, we could cut out the inferior "Quintessential" series and mention the complete Columbia box and one or two good compilations of her Columbia period. Ditto for Commodore, Decca, and Verve. We might mention some of the "complete recording" series that have been coming out in Europe, such as the "Masters of Jazz" series, but there's no need to mention Volumes 4, 8, 9, 12, 13, and 14 (what does Wikipedia have against the other volumes?).
What do others think? — Malik Shabazz | Talk 23:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree that Billie's discography here is excessive and that it should suffice to mention a couple of comprehensive multi-CD sets. Christiern Albertson 21:16, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bisexuality

Didn't the article use to contain a mention of Billie Holiday's affairs with other women? Did someone delete it and if so why? It's common knowledge I believe and quite important in providing a complete picture of her. Could someone put this back in please? Thanks SmokeyTheCat 16:23, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gloomy Sunday

I am suprised that Gloomy Sunday was not mentioned in the article. Why is that? -- Gloomy Sunday GloomySunday 22:33, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Because you only introduced yourself today. :-)

On a serious note, an article like this can only mention so many songs. If you consider "Gloomy Sunday" significant enough to Holiday's career to mention it, go ahead and add it. To me, "Lover Man" (which isn't mentioned in the article either) was a much more significant song in her career. But be bold and put it in there if you think it should be mentioned.

PS - FYI: It's not a big deal, but new comments are usually added to the bottom of a Talk page, not the top. — Malik Shabazz | Talk 22:50, 19 March 2007 (UTC)