Talk:Bildungsroman

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Well I'm not a pro on this but what i learned about bildungsromans is right. It is a story in which any character in the story becomes a whole lot smarter than he or she was at the beginning of the story. (and if you want to argue about this bring it on, i'm a major in kindegarden mathamatics!)

Contents

[edit] perhaps some improvement?

While there are a great many examples on the English version of this page, perhaps someone could translate the German edition of this page (considering this is a German word) to provide more information about the topic?

Also-- I've never read this, but I believe it is a good example-- would Shakespeare's As You Like It be a good example?


[edit] The Bell Jar

Would the Bell Jar be considered a Bildungsroman?

[edit] well

I tried to remove it but could not. "Edit this page" does not reveal this text anywhere.

[edit] Salinger

Is Catcher in the Rye a bildungsroman?

Most definitely so.

Not really. I had to smile at the notion that Harry Potter is a bildungsroman. Very funny. When one talks about an education novel, one does tend to mean a character's sentimental education, not his literal one. Ah well. James James 09:42, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I came to this page to dispute the very same thing, Catcher is not a bildungsroman on many grounds but one can pithily sum it up in the fact that it all takes place at one point in his life, indeed over the course of a few days, whereas a bildungsroman should cover a lengthy span of life to see the character realised as a fully grown adult. Tony2Times 13:01, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Tom872 (talk • contribs) just reverted my removal of Catcher in the Rye, and I don't want to get into an edit war over this, so I'm bringing it here for broader attention... is this an accurate example of a bildungsroman? -- nae'blis (talk) 04:39, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Major revision

I have drastically altered the content of this article.

It consisted of one short paragraph defining bildungsroman, looking like a Wiktionary definition, followed by about two dozen examples and yet two dozen further "more contemporary" examples. I added a couple more myself, and then added the "Film" section.

Thinking about it, I soon realised that the article was getting overwhelmed by the examples. Instead of being illustrations of the genre, they were rapidly turning the page into listings of contributors' favorites. On reflection, it seemed best to reduce the number dramatically. Four per section appeared to be a reasonable number. However, I certainly did not wish to merely erase other people's work. So I created two subsidiary articles, moved the lists there, and added the links. I left the film list at six because it made no sense to create an extention list for just two items.

Considerations and recommendations:

  1. My prime consideration in selecting the examples that I have left here is that they are actually read. It makes no sense to use as illustrations of the genre, books, no matter how well-written, that are not being widely read now.
  2. The dividing line between the two lists is 1930. There is nothing critical about that date, merely that, with two exceptions which I moved, that's how the two lists were divided up before I did anything.
  3. If you wish to add more examples, please place them on the extention lists. Also, having gone through the "donkey-work" of alphabetizing the lists by author, I urge you to insert additions in order, not just at the bottom of the list.
  4. I am of the opinion that not all the items listed really are examples of the genre. Still, someone did, or they wouldn't be listed. So unless it really upsets you to find a particular entry on the list, I'd urge that you leave other folk's items untouched.
  5. It's better to have a title redlinked than typed in black. It may prompt someone to add an article about the book.
  6. I have specific rationale for the examples I left on this page. Dickens' works almost define the genre, Twain's is a classic example, and the term was almost coined just to type Goethe's book. The second group takes place in the 1790s, the 1900s, the 1930s, and the 1990s, which is a nice spread. In two the central character is a boy and in two, a girl, which is also to the good. I would ask that if you are considering replacing any of them (and moving it to the extention list), that you only do so if you have personally read the one you are replacing.
  7. Just add any films to the list here. If it gets unwieldy, I can always add an extention later. The film list should not be used for cinematic versions of novels (except in cases like Gigi where the movie is overwhelmingly better-known than the Colette novel).
  8. I hope that someone will expand the actual article.

B00P 02:02, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Group as opposed to individual focus, film should be out

Firstly, Bildungsroman is specifically defined as a novel, stretched perhaps in the case of Kafka to a short story. Der Roman is German for novel after all. As such, I find it a bit of a misapplication of the term to add a film section. However, I'd definitely like to get more opinions on this. Or, if we do include a film section, why not a drama section?

Secondly, I think some effort should be made to distinguish in the article (and its appendices) whether a novel chronicling the simultaneous development of more than one person should be considered a bildungsroman. Technically, I would say no; a bildungsroman is traditionally limited to the development of one character who dominates the entire novel. As such, the Harry Potter series and War and Peace ought to be left off, as should The Seven Samurai and Star Wars, regardless of whether the film list stays or goes. Or else we should throw in just about anything that has a character or characters developing—Lord of the Rings, for instance.

I personally think we should make every effort to keep the definition of bildungsroman and its examples as narrow and specific as possible. This will insure clarity and prevent dilution of the term into some meaningless notion of some character learning something at some point in some story.

Andrewseal 04:36, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


1) On the specifics of Seven Samurai and Star Wars, I think that they are rather good examples. Katsushiro is a wealthy young man who has never seen poverty, suffering, or a real fight, never kissed a girl, or been made responsible for anything. Luke Skywalker is hardly the same naive farmboy he started out as.
2) Regarding the larger issue of films in general, please note that I used the phrase "bildungsroman form." I do not disagree that, strickly speaking, bildungsroman refers to a novel. However, I had a straightforward rationale for adding the section. The reality is that more readers, particularly young readers, are more likely to have seen the movies than read the books. As the lists are only illustrative, it appeared to be a good idea to list items that they would actually know.
If a consensus forms one way or the other, it will not make that great a difference to me. The only notion that I am wedded to is that this article not revert to being mostly a list of examples. I still hope that the text will be expanded. B00P 10:24, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

B00P, I feel you didn't really understand my point about The Seven Samurai and Star Wars. It's not that they don't have a character developing in them, it's that this development is merely a facet of the work, not the whole thing as it is in Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man or in The Magic Mountain. Saving the galaxy is a pretty big part of the Star Wars saga, and while it coincides with Luke's maturation, there is still an enormous amount of content aside from such "education." I feel that using this type of work, which has its focus scattered around many different characters and many different issues, dilutes the understanding of what a bildungsroman is. And I don't care if young readers are wholly unfamiliar with our examples; if they're bright enough to look up bildungsroman, they'll probably be inquisitive enough to look up our examples.

No, I do understand your point and concede that it's obviously so. It is also clear that one can't get the depth of a novel when boiled down to a film. The point that I was trying to make is that these films illustrate what a bildungsroman is. That's all.
As for your final assertion, I only hope that it's so. B00P 01:11, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Back to the Future

I think adding this movie is stretching things quite a bit. --DanielCD 01:42, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

There are a great many poor examples, as well as non-examples, on these "Bildungsroman" pages and lists. This entire things needs an overhaul, as the entire point of it is being missed. --DanielCD 14:12, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] another contemporary example

How about adding the novel Invisible Man to the list? I can argue that this is a fairly good example --BorisFromStockdale 02:12, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion regarding Bildungsroman! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make whatever changes you feel are needed. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. You don't even need to log in! (Although there are some reasons why you might like to…) The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome.--michael180 22:34, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Can anyone here support Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire as a Bildungsroman? The series thus far has both old/young protagonists, and contains little of maturing or growth for most of them, with about one exception. I don't feel it belongs in this category. Anyone agree?

Yes. There are too many things being added that aren't examples at all. --DanielCD 18:36, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] baffling film/book organizational structure

Why is it that the book/novel examples were split out and then excised from this article, and the films (many of which are not good examples) are left in as the primary examples? If anything, this should be reversed, but I'm more inclined to re-include bildungsroman examples from books and films that can be cited as such in this article, and redirect the two book articles here. Please comment or note any objections to such a course of action. -- nae'blis 17:42, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] defining examples

I teach a class on the Bildungsroman; very few people agree on what exactly is one or isn't one--as this discussion indicates, you can really get bogged down arguing about whether something is or isn't. For example, the definition from Buckley on the page doesn't describe a ton of novels that are typically considered examples of the genre. I like the lists and discussions about particular items as a means to provoke thought, but maybe we should assume that it really is a loose and baggy genre and no definition is going to nail down all possible examples.Klbrewer 22:35, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

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