Talk:Białowieża Forest

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How come that, with so many edit wars around here, this article remains untouched? Every child knows that the true name of the forest is Puszcza Bialowieska! But seriously, only joking. What I really wanted to ask is whether this article needs some info on the fact that that the whole forest has been a National Park since 15th century? This makes it one of the oldest National Parks still existing...Halibutt 14:06, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

You can have it as you are wrong. The true name in which language? The importance of which part of the forest? The information about the belarussian part is that they are felling trees on an astounding rate. So what is important? The part that is well known or the part that might be well known but is not.

Try going there and have a good look.. GerardM 18:10, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Both names (Belavezhskaya Pushcha and Bialoveza Forest) are equally valid, but refer to different parts of the territory, see the UNESCO site. This article is about the Belarussian part, with brief mentioning of the Polish one. One has all possible rights to replace the Bialowieski National Park redirect by a full-blown article.

I added a piece from UNESCO site. I understand, the information from there is in public domain, unless specifically indicated (like GIS data, which requires donation). Mikkalai 19:12, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

1 Page moves
2 The Britannica title
3 Back to the naming issue
4 Merges

[edit] Page moves

I've moved this page from Belavezhskaya Pushcha to Bialowieza Forest for the following reasons:

Pushcha doesn't mean anything in English. Replacing it with "forest" seems obvious to me.
Since the forest is named after a town in Poland, I can see no reason to write its name in Belarussian in the title.

Of course, both Polish and Belarussian names of the forest are still mentioned in the opening paragraph. --Kpalion 07:14, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I moved it back:

it is the official English name, see e.g., the UNESCO list.
If you want Bialowieza Forest article about the Polish part, you are welcome to cut material from here to there. Mikkalai 07:24, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Google hits: Belavezhskaya Pushcha + Belovezhskaya Pushcha: 7,550 +1,680; 2,410 for "Bialowieza Forest", 5,590 for "Puszcza Białowieska". So much for English language :-) Mikkalai 07:36, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Correction (English language pages only): Belavezhskaya Pushcha + Belovezhskaya Pushcha: 4,450 + 886; for "Bialowieza Forest": 2,090, for "Puszcza Białowieska" 57 + 163 (ł vs. l) letter. Mikkalai

According to the UNESCO website you keep referring to, the official name of the forest is Belovezhskaya Pushcha/Bialowieza Forest. But I'm not sure whether we really have to copy the strange politically correct solutions of UNESCO; according to the same website, Jerusalem is a separate country!
I also can see no reason for two separate articles about one forest which happens to be divided by a political border. It would be like having one article about Canadian Rocky Mountains and one about US Rocky Mountains.
I suppose that my proposition is the most English you can get. Belovezhskaya Pushcha is just a romanization of the Belarussian name. I'm not going to repeat myself, see explanation above.
And is Google the only arbiter on the English language? --Kpalion 08:08, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

UNESCO: you are looking at the wrong page. (Do you also think that there is a country Belarus/Poland, mentioned there as well? :-)) Better see [1].
What's wrong with romanization? It as a name. Do you want me to "translate" my name as well and sign myself as User:Victoriferuos?
Please note also that the alalogy with, e.g., Volga River being a translation of "reka Volga", will not do. Volga is the actual name of the river, while "Bialowieza", etc. is not the name of the forest. Tsarskoye Selo is not Tsar Village. Mikkalai 18:17, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Alright, I'm not going to argue with you; perhaps you're right. The case for Belovezhskaya Pushcha is that a greater part of the foretst is on the Belorussian side. I'd only like to say thay we were talking about hte same UNESCO site - and it does say Belovezhskaya Pushcha/Bialowieza Forest. For some strange reason the Belarussian name (used for the Belarussian part of the forest) has only been romanized but the Polish has been was translated. This seems quite awkward to me. Maybe it's beacuse Poles are used to translating foregin names into Polish (e.g. we do translate Tsarskoye Selo as Carskie Sioło) so they also tend to translate names into English. But if we assume that the Belarussian name is what the English speakers use for the whole forest, than it's OK. --Kpalion 21:56, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

UNESCO: Probably you misunderstood my brief explanation in mocking tone, sorry. At their site they list Belavezhskaya Pushcha/Bialowieza Forest under the "Belarus/Poland" header, meaning that belarussian part is puscha and polish part is forest. There are quite a few similar case there; e.g.,

Austria/Hungary
- Cultural Landscape of Fertö/Neusiedlersee

Indeed, it seems the usage of pushcha/forest is polarized by which side is writing about it, with noticeable bias that "forest" tends to refer to the Polish part, thus producing a possible confusion. How about a trade-off for the common article: Belavezhskaya Pushcha and Bialowieza Forest (slash cannot be used in titles)? With the following introduction:

Bialowieza Primaeval Forest, known as Беловежская пуща in Belarus, which is traditionally transliterated as 'Belavezhskaya Pushcha, and Puszcza Białowieska in Poland, traditinally translated as Bialowieza Forest, is a ancient virginal forest ~~reserve~~ stradling....

Mikkalai 23:07, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Actually, this would be too awkward and even worse. The title should be either Bialowieza Forest or Belavezhskaya Pushcha. I believe the former would be better, but, well, I could live with the latter. After all, Bialowieza Forest redirects here anyway. I would also simplify the intro:

Białowieża Primaeval Forest, known as Belavezhskaya Pushcha (Беловежская пуща) in Belarus and Puszcza Białowieska in Poland, is a ancient virginal forest stradling....

And BTW, if we were really translating that name (Polish or Belarussian, doesn't matter) into English, we'd get: "White Tower Forest"; but of course I don't mean to go that far.

--Kpalion 23:31, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

OK. You almost convinced me. ~~If someone else comes and renames the article your way I will no longer object. (Let me strike this out for not to encourage someone unnecessarily :-)~~ This summer I'll be visiting Belarus. Shall we meet somewhere in the Belavezhski Forest? Mikkalai 00:16, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'd do the renaming myself, but I'm somehow involved so I don't know if it counts. As to the meeting somewhere in between - might be interesting. However, crossing the border might be a problem since Belarus is the only Poland's neighbour to still have mines on the frontier...Halibutt 01:25, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

You guys are too funny, and Mikkalai, can you bring back one of those mines from the western front? You know it does not really matter what the name is, that is supposed to be the value of redirects, you can makes all variations of the names redirects and bold face them in the lead-in to the main article. I vote for the Russian name, after all wasn't it the Imperial Tsars that originally named it? (If not excuse me for starting another controversy). Anyway, whatever you slavs decide to do in your nationalistic fervour remember that really it isn't Polish or Belarusian or Russian or anything else, it is just part of our common world heritage (and beautiful, I visited the Belarusian part of it three years ago around May 1). — © Alex756 05:23, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

No, the name sake for the forest is the village (now a town) of Białowieża which in turn is named after a "white tower", or a white wooden manor built there for the king Wladyslaw Jagiello. I expanded the history section since apparently we don't need two separate articles. Also, the forest stands there since some 25 000 years, and it's been divided for 60, so there's not really much sense behind such a division. Halibutt 21:20, Jul 9, 2004 (UTC)

Ded Moroz is not an invention of the Soviet Union as far as I can tell. see: http://www.santalady.com/gg/moroz.html — © Alex756 07:13, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Britannica title

The Britannica name for this article is Belovezhskaya Forest. Grue 14:15, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Britannica used the Russian word. Very stupid of them. Again they demonstrated that they are not up to the high encyclopedic standard that they set to themeselves. --rydel 16:12, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Can anybody explain to me why the name is rendered in a Polish spelling with all the stresses and apostrophies and whatever-those-things-are-called on top of the letters. To borrow KNewman arguments, some people are not even sure how to pronounce it, let alone how to write it. And some of them don't have Polish language support, so all they see is little cubes instead of certain letters. I believe the Russian word is better known. Another option is to English it as Belavezha Forest or White Tower Forest or whatever. --Ghirlandajo 16:06, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

The Brtiannica article [2] is indeed called: Belovezhskaya Forest and starts like this:

Belovezhskaya Forest, also called Belovezh Forest and Bialowieza Forest , Belarusian: Belovezhskaya Pushcha , Polish: Puszcza Bialowieska

forest in western Belarus and eastern Poland. It is one of the largest surviving areas of primeval ...

I think this alone is enough to settle the debate because I never saw a difference between the prevailing usage in English media (I use LexisNexis Major paper search) and the title picked by Britannica. If anyone's in doubt, I will do a media search. So, whoever has time, please list this at WP:RM or I will do it myself when I get to this. --Irpen 17:39, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

As to the current name of this article, it simply seems the most obvious option. Both Polish, Belarusian and Russian names for the forest are coined after the town of Białowieża, which has been in Poland since its creation. Hence it seems to be natural to translate the name after the original name-sake, and not after its translations to Russian or Belarusian. Otherwise we'd have dozens of names to chose from, most of them being but transcriptions of Russian or Belarussian names. Halibu tt 09:53, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

The Polish name is derived after the Ruthenian Belaya Vezha, Belarus. As I've said before, Belavezha Forest is the most suitable name. --Ghirlandajo 10:06, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, but this seems factually inaccurate as most sources I know support the Białowieża ethymology. Could you name the sources to support the Ruthenian version? Also, if it has to be a Russian name, then we'd have to chose from Belaya Vezha Forest, Belavezha Forest, Belavezhskaya Forest, Byelovezhskaya Forest, Bielovezhskaya Forest and dozens of others... Halibu tt 10:14, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

That's because you consult Polish sources only. Belarusian sources say otherwise. The village, first mentioned in the 16th century, is named after the forest, which is named after the 13th-century tower. I don't assume that the Russian name should be applied, Belarusian is quite OK for me. --Ghirlandajo 10:22, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Belarusian is quite ok for me as well, though I still find the "tower" history incredible. Contrary to that structure, the village of Białowieża has been the administrative centre of the area (and the forest) since 16th century and still serves that purpose. On the other hand, that mysterious building seems to be quite interesting, but hardly of any significance to that forest's history. Halibu tt 16:31, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Firstly, Kamenets is the historic centre of this district, and the forest formerly adjoined the town. Secondly, the tower used to be so important a structure that the city apparently borrowed its name: kamen is stone, cf. Kamenets-Podolsky with its fortress and Kamenskoye with its fortified church. --Ghirlandajo 16:47, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, according to what I know the town took the name after the stony embankment of the nearby river, as the Tower of Kamianiec is made entirely of bricks (which are not white, BTW). Secondly, that is the version mentioned in the wiki article on Kamianiec (The name of the place derives from the Slav word kamienny meaning stony, as it was founded atop a stony rise.). Also, the version with that town being the centre of the area seems highly dubious as it was Białowieża where the seat of the forest administration was established and that town was actually built for that purpose in the very heart of the forest while Kamianiec was (and still is) to the east of the eastern edge of the forest. Halibu tt 17:43, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't presume to possess an expertise on the etymology of Kamenets, but it is widely known that the toponyms starting with kamen- were associated with fortified places. It does not really matter whether fortifications were built of stone or brick: I don't think Kamenets-Podolsky is built of limestone either. In old Ruthenian languages, brick churches (i.e., Kiev's St Sophia) are called the stone ones (каменные). The same applies to other srtuctures as opposed to the wooden one. The epithet "white" also had varying meanings: "White Ruthenia", or Belarus, hardly takes its name from the colour. That it was in Bialowieza that the forest's administration was established, may explain the village's name, derived from the nearby forest. --Ghirlandajo 19:53, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Or the other way around. To make it short, unless we can find any proof that the forest was named the way it still is before Białowieża was founded, I believe we should stick to common interpretation. Halibu tt 21:23, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, of course. And the common interpretation is that the forest is named after Bela Vezha, or the White Tower. --Ghirlandajo 11:39, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Any sources to back that up? Halibu tt 12:06, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Try to google for "forest", "belarus", "white tower" - and you'll get plenty of links. --Ghirlandajo 12:18, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

I browsed the first page of such search and it seems that, while many authors properly translate the name of the forest (as it means the White Tower Forest in both Polish and Belarusian), none of them mentions that the name stems from the Kamenets tower. In fact this site uses the term The Belovezha dense forest is unique beauty of, which would suggest that the name is a relative of the name of the town of Belovezha - called Bialowieza in Polish. Only the Brest Online claims that the name was taken after the tower, but it also suggests that the name of the tower was changed much later, so there seems to be some logical flaw in such statement.

On the contrary, the Polish wiki article explains the naming history pretty well. In my harsh translation, the story goes like this: In early Middle Ages, until 13th century, the Bialowieza Forest was not a single entity and was rather a part of a greater primaeval forest complex ranging from Polesie to Grodno. Some settlers have arrived there both from Lithuania and Mazovia, but such settlements were scarce and dispersed. There were also signs of Yotvingian settlements, which are known to our times because of many Baltic toponyms in the area. In 15th century the forest was divided onto several parts, each of them attached to a different manor as its property. What is now the Bialowieza Forest was divided between the manors of Bielsk, Kamieniec and Wolkowysk. Hence the names used were Puszcza bielska, puszcza kamieniecka and puszcza wolkowyska. After the founding of the manor of Bialowieza, it became the name-sake for the northern part of the puszcza kamieniecka. Increasing settlement effort brought the existence of the puszcza bielska to an end, and the only remaining part of it is a tiny puszcza ladzka. Puszcza wolkowyska was divided onto smaller parts, among others on Swislocz forest, Mscigobow forest and Jalow forest. The latter ceased to exist due to settlements, and the privately-owned forest of Swislocz (belonging to the Tyszkiewicz family of Swislocz) was attached to the Bialowieza forest in 1832. Thus, what is now the Bialowieza forest, is in fact a conglomerate of the surviving parts of the puszczas of Bialowieza, Ladzk and Swislocz. Seems to explain your controversies pretty well to me. Halibu tt 15:42, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Back to the naming issue

While it was mentioned before, I don't think enough was made of the fact that the Belarusian section of the reserve is nearly 18 times bigger than the relatively tiny section in Poland. Given that, it simply seems inexplicable that this article remains under the Polish (or Polish/English name). I understand some think the name comes from a Polish town, but there is also evidence that it is named after a location in present-day Belarus. At any rate, both countries call it something different--but one of them has over 90% of the reserve, and the other less than 10%. I'd say that gives the Belarusian name pride of place. --James Honan-Hallock 04:13, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

As pointed out above, we have yet to see a single reference that would back up the version, according to which the forest was named in 15th century after the 19th century romantic name of a tower in a town to the east of the eastern edge of the forest. But of course, we could invent a compromise name here, some sort of White Tower Forest. This might border WP:NOR, but perhaps would suit some of us. Halibu tt 06:37, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

See EB's article for a reference and check its name too. --Irpen 14:33, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

My move: the Polish name is Puszcza Białowieska, the belarussian name is <whatever>. The English name is "Bialowieza Forest". A title that mixes them is simply ridiculous and that move was made without any discussion. I didn't notice it simply because the article edited very rarely and it didin't pop up in my wathclist.

So I reverted to the previous version which, you Halibutt should remember, was achieved after long and frustrating talks, so I am not giving it up easily now. mikka (t) 19:02, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Please read above. There are concerns that a different name may be proper in English. Some point out to Belovezhskaya Puscha used by 2004 Britannica. Others think that Belavezha Forest would be all right, because the forest lies predominantly in Belarus. UNESCO employs double name, too. As the issue surfaces every month, I don't think that Bialowieza Forest is a consensus just now. --Ghirlandajo 19:09, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Please read above. I am not saying it is a consensus now. I am saying it was, after the previous talk. Also I am saying that a half-polish half-english (and semi-translated, too) title is not cool, colleague. the same my opinion as about semi Russian. The full name is "Bel... Forest", not "Bel..." We don't have a name Lower Novgorod for Nizhny Novgorod. While I am sure EB had its reasons for their strange name version, they didn't provide them for us, so we must talk it over ourselves. mikka (t) 20:42, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

On Google Book Search, we find:

Bialowierza 161 books found mentioning the term
Belovezhskaya 30 books
Belavezha 8 books
Belaveskaya 0 books

To be more exact

To me at least this is strong evidence that Bialowierza is much more frequently used in English publications and hence the article should remain under the title Bialowieza Forest. Balcer 03:46, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree that, particularly in a case where no one foreign-language name should be preferred, common English usage should determine the page name. While the forest is perhaps not often discussed in English, to the extent it is, it is certainly without Polish language diacritics. As someone who is taking university-level Polish, I have nothing against diacritics like ł and ż, but while they mean something to me they mean nothing to 99% of English speakers. Given this, and the fact that most of this forest is in a country which uses the Cyrillic alphabet (whether for Russian or, less commonly, Belarusian), I don't think it makes much sense to include them in the title. By all means, they should be in the Polish name in the first sentence. My concern with the UNESCO name, though, is that an English speaker would pronounce it "Bee-al-o-wheeze-a", which is far from how it's pronounced in either Polish or Belarusian. The main thing is the lack of an implication of the "zh" sound signified by ż, which exists in the Polish, Belarusian, and Russian pronounciations. Any thoughts? --James Honan-Hallock 21:04, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

"pronounce": It is well known to the whole world that English cannot read what other people write, so IMO no big deal here. I know several people with name Pesic, who know that it sounds funny in Slavic langs, but have no special desire for the "correct" Peshich. mikka (t) 21:32, 14 December 2005 (UTC)