Talk:Better dead than red

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[edit] Is the initial version a lie?

This article was started by User talk:67.176.87.85. On their user talk you can see that this IP adress had been used for vandalism. So I think we need a source for the claims (click to see first version) the IP user posted. I couldn't find any proof of that "Lieber tot als rot" was coined by Goebbels so I deleted that for now. --194.95.33.142 09:41, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

That user is an anon IP address. The fact that it's vandalized doesn't mean much - multiple people may use it.

With regard to the claim that Goebbels invented "lieber tot als rot" before "better dead than red," I can't find proof either. However, there is one independent source, not citable, which claims it.

The source mentions Radio Werwolf, which was real, run by Goebbels, and encouraged suicidal resistance, so the story is credible. I'm going to restore the claim, but with a citation needed tag.

Kalkin 21:55, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No evidence of Nazi connection (after search of major newspapers)

I have done a keyword search of the Chicago Tribune, the L.A. Times, the N.Y. Times, and the Washington Post and have found no evidence of a Nazi connection for this phrase. I used the ProQuest Historial Newspapers database, which extends back into the 19th Century.

The earliest use that I could find of either "Better Red than dead" or "Better dead than Red" comes from 1961, after the former slogan had become popular among British pacifists. The earliest uses I can find of "Better dead than Red" are responses to "Better Red than dead," suggesting that the former appeared prior to the latter.

There are no articles in this newspaper database that suggest a Nazi or German origin for either term. The person usually cited as the coiner (of the "Better Red" version, which seems to have come first) is Bertrand Russell.