Talk:Benny Goodman
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[edit] contradictions
"The notion of a "hot" band playing in such rarified environs was, for the time, absurd. Regulars of Carnegie Hall were the upper crust of society, and looked down upon the Swing dance craze spreading across the nation."
"This concert has been regarded by some as the most significant concert in jazz history. After years of work by musicians from all over the country, jazz had finally been accepted by main stream audiences."
those two passages are irreconciliable. benny goodman was ALREADY successful, the "swing dance CRAZE" was already "spreading", countless jazz bands made a fine living during the same years. so why would the success of a single "upper crust" venue concert signify the "mainstream" "acceptance" of jazz?
it doesn't signal that at all. the statements are completely and utterly wrong.
[edit] January 16, 1938 and Carnegie Hall
1938 in music says: "Benny Goodman refuses to play Carnegie Hall because black members of his orchestra are banned." but here it states: "his band made a famous appearance at Carnegie Hall." Which version is correct?--Hhielscher 04:36, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
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- Goodman's concert at Carnegie Hall in 1938 was the first jazz concert at Carnegie and one of the greatest jazz concerts ever. The recording of the concert was first issued in the 1950s and has been reissued several times since, most recently in 1999 (the first issue concert in its entirety). I just corrected the 1938 in music article. The Carnegie Hall concert probably deserves its own section within the Benny Goodman article, since it is considered to be a watershed moment for jazz. Maybe I'll get around to it someday ... Drumsac 23:22, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Benny and bebop
Here it says: "He embraced bebop in the late 1940s and early 1950s with less commercial success, although the recordings he made in that style for Capitol Records were very highly praised by jazz critics." Is this true? I've always heard that Goodman hated bebop, and I've never heard of any critically praised Goodman bebop sides. Drumsac 23:22, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Goodman *never* came to terms with bebop, although as a technician he undoubtably regarded its speed and chord changes as a challenge to be mastered, and as a commercial bandleader he recognised its (gradual) public acceptance...but he, personally, never liked it. Come to that, he didn't like quite a lot of pre-bop compositions, either: there can be few jazz players whose performances on record make it so obvious when they are not at home with a number. Listen to Goodman agonising on "I Must oasdk;f1937: Teddy Wilson with Billie Holiday): it's obvious that Goodman *hates* the tune - in that key, anyway. The same goes for all his stuff with Wardell Grey and Stan Hasselgard, when Goodman adopts a "cool", bloodless tone and phrasing that he surely cannot have beleived in. Presumably he thought he was being "modern". In fact, he was always best in the role of "hot" Chicagoan clarinetist: and at that, he was insurpassible.
Sixty years later it's hard to see what the problem was between swing and bebop. I don't think Goodman hated bop. Also, who is "Wilson" in the section on bebop. The writer says Goodman hired "Wilson" to be in his band. 67.11.169.152 23:52, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
'Undercurrent Blues' is a recent (say in the last 10 years) album of BG Bebop on Capitol. It's interesting for Wardell Gray, Hasselgard, and Fats Navarro. Some of the 'ob-bla-dee' vocal stuff is crap. BG generally sounds great, but he soon retreated to his comfort zone of Big Band Swing (Most notably on 'BG in Hi-Fi"). --SeanO 21:20, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] YouTube links
This article is one of thousands on Wikipedia that have a link to YouTube in it. Based on the External links policy, most of these should probably be removed. I'm putting this message here, on this talk page, to request the regular editors take a look at the link and make sure it doesn't violate policy. In short: 1. 99% of the time YouTube should not be used as a source. 2. We must not link to material that violates someones copyright. If you are not sure if the link on this article should be removed or you would like to help spread this message contact us on this page. Thanks, ---J.S (t|c) 04:04, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I play the clarinet. I have to study Benny Goodman. I think his music is really cool!
If the You Tube link is to Stage Door Canteen, I don't think it matters, because Stage Door fell into the public domain a really long time ago. 67.11.169.152 23:54, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] "He was the most important performer of popular music in the twentieth century."
This is not a fact, it's opinion. Elvis, Sinatra, the Beatles, and Michael Jackson all have a claim to this as well. And that's if we limit 'popular music' to music from English-speaking countries. --SeanO 20:04, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
- It's getting annoying indeed. I have given the user an official warning on his Talk page. From now on, increasingly higher warnings can be given, possibly resulting in an admin user blocking him at one point. TheDJ (talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 00:48, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Wasn't the 20th Century this funny time period in England and the United States, when there were so many fashions, music styles, literary styles, art movements, everyone thought that everything was the end, that the art form of the moment could never be topped, and yet something different was always around the bend. Just a thought. -Feeling nostalgic for 1900-1999. 01:59, 19 March 2007 (UTC) About "He was the most important performer of popular music in the twentieth century": Isn't there room for an opinion on here? At least whoever wrote it, is enthusiastic about BG. 67.11.169.152 00:59, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Charlie Christian section
I added the Charlie Christian section with the quote and I need to add some text around it. Give me a day or so and it'll be there. :) 67.11.169.152 03:09, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Outside sources
I added more outside sources so the article didn't come across as personally written by one person. 67.11.169.152 23:49, 24 March 2007 (UTC) All the comments on here, besides mine, seem to have ended around 2005, anyone have any comments, favorable or negative about the additions? 67.11.169.152 20:46, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Birthname and Ancestry
According to Firestone's biography of BG, Benny was born Benjamin David Goodman, not Beno Guttman. His parents are Jewish and from what is now Poland and Lithuania, not Hungary. If there are better sources that prove otherwise, let's discuss them here. --SeanO 08:03, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
The "Beno Guttman" story is the first I've heard of it. 67.11.169.152 19:39, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
It's shown up on the page twice now. I'm hoping this will be the end of it. --SeanO 20:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Cleanup and tips
I see there are a couple of people interested in this article. I happen to have it on my watchlist, due to some vandalism in the past, but am not really interested in writing anything. However I noticed the changes and figured I would do some cleanup. I converted most of the sources into wikipedia references style. I've also removed a reference to a usenet posting, a source which in general is NOT reliable enough for wikipedia. As a matter of fact that might go for more of the links. That should be checked.
Other things you can do:
- expand the lead-in section of the article. It really doesn't do the man justice at the moment.
- there are a "LOT" of quotations now. quotations should be used sparsely. If you can write it in your own words, then that is better. You don't always need to explicitely QUOTE something as long as the prose reference to the information is sourced.
- please read Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies) and some of biographies that made it as Featured article. This will show what type of article is expected. For instance: AC/DC Frank Black Mariah Carey Phil Collins and Celine Dion.
--TheDJ (talk • contribs • WikiProject Television) 22:53, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
