Talk:Bengali language

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[edit] Geographically the most Eastern?

Along with Assamese, it is geographically the most eastern of the Indo-European languages. Wouldn't Assamese and Bishnupriya Manipuri be the most Eastern? Even If BPM is not actually a language at least the whole thing should be mentioned? Maquahuitl

[edit] Ranking of Bengali in the world's languages

Comparing the stated ranking of Bengali here and that on the page List of languages by number of native speakers I found a discrepancy. What is the truth? Would someone correct the discrepancy please? --JorisvS 21:56, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

See [1] this link from SIL. Thanks. --Ragib 23:44, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure the Ethnologue source is reliable, since for example it gives the number of Portuguese speakers as 170M, which is less than the population of Brazil, an entirely Portuguese-speaking country. In any case it's undesirable to have Wikipedia articles completely disagreeing with each other, so I'm changing the ranking to "between 4 and 7" until this can be resolved, ideally at Talk:List of languages by number of native speakers. Lfh 20:49, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Ethnologue is generally considered a good source for ranking. If there is a better source, please feel free to mention it here. Thanks. --Ragib 20:56, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm by no means an expert, I'm just trying to resolve the inconsistency between articles. The sources used by the list are the CIA and the World Almanac, but if you think the Ethnologue data are better - which they may be - you might want to include them on the list. Lfh 22:02, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

From IQBAL50000: Hello Friends, I just want to say something: As far as I'm aware the second most widely spoken language of India is Bengali, after Hindi. I am 99% sure it's not Telegu. Telegu is the third most widely spoken language of India, after Hindi and Bengali. I can provide you with ample amount of explicitly clear confirmations of the accuracy of what I stated here -i.e. Please read the following web links:-

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/profiles/India.pdf -(please read whole of final paragraph of page 7)

http://www.w3cindia.in/2006/08/Talks/e-GOV-Sts-LLT.ppt -(please see table on page 5)

http://lands.let.kun.nl/literature/heuvel.2004.2.pdf -(please read the third paragraph of section 3.2, which is on page 3)

'India: ECONOMY' http://www.mongabay.com/reference/new_profiles/250in.html -(please read second paragraph of the 'Languages' section of this article)


Also, Bengali is ranked as the 6th most widely spoken language in the world (in terms of mother tongue), - Please see the following link of a very reliable and up to date website: 'CIA - The World Factbook -- World ' https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/xx.html -(please scroll down and read the "Languages" section under the 'People' heading).

this is actually quite convincing. any body has references claiming telegu is no 2?--ppm 20:04, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

From Iqbal50000: MY DEAR FRIENDS, I THINK THE EVIDENCES I HAVE STATED ABOVE ABSOLUTELY AND MOST CONCLUSIVELY PROVES THAT BENGALI IS THE 2ND MOST WIDELY SPOKEN LANGUAGE OF INDIA, AFTER HINDI. THE SOURCES I QUOTED ABOVE ARE NEUTRAL SOURCES (I.E FROM INDIAN GOVT SOURCES AND OTHER SOURCES), ALL OF WHICH STATE EXPLICITLY THAT BENGALI IS THE 2ND MOST WIDELY SPOKEN LANGUAGE IN INDIA AFTER HINDI! IN ALL OF THESE VERY SAME NEUTRAL SOURCES OF MINE, TELUGU IS STATED AS THE THIRD MOST WIDELY SPOKEN LANGUAGE OF INDIA AFTER HINDI AND BENGALI. THESE SOURCES ALSO GIVE PERCENTAGES FOR EACH OF THE LANGUAGES OF INDIA! AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, THESE DATA/INFORMATION ARE NOT FROM WEST BENGAL OR FROM ANY OTHER STATE AUTHORITIES! THEY ARE FROM THE GOVT OF THE REPUBLIC OF INDIA AND OTHER SOURCES WHICH ARE NATIONAL/FEDERAL SOURCES-I.E. ACCEPTED SOURCES FOR THE COUNTRY OF INDIA AS A WHOLE!! MY FRIENDS WHO HAVE QUOTED SOURCES STATING TELUGU AS THE SECOND MOST WIDELY SPOKEN, ARE NOT NEUTRAL SOURCES. THEIR SOURCES ARE DATA/INFORMATION WHICH ARE EITHER FROM LOCAL/STATE SOURCES EG ANDHRA PRADESH STATE SOURCES, OR FROM SOURCES ABOUT/CONCENTRATING ON A STATE/LOCALITY (I.E. ANDHRA PRADESH). WE ALL KNOW THE OFFICIAL STATE LANGUAGE OF ANDHRA PRADESH IS TELEGU. I THINK WHEN WE ARE DISCUSSING NATIONAL/COUNTRYWIDE ATTRIBUTES OF ANY COUNTRY, NATIONAL/FEDERAL SOURCES SHOULD BE QUOTED, AND SHOULD BE REGARDED AS MORE RELIABLE THAN SOURCES FROM, (OR CASE STUDIES ON) A PARTICULAR STATE/LOCALITY OF THE COUNTRY! THEREFORE I WOULD KINDLY REQUEST THE AUTHOR OF THE ARTICLE TO AMEND THE ARTICLE WHITH REGARDS TO THE RANK OF BENGALI IN INDIA, BEARING IN MIND ALL THE GOVT AND OTHER NEUTRAL 'OVERALL' COUNTRYWIDE SOURCES.!-REGARDS+BEST WISHES TO YOU ALL.

Bengali ranks as 7th in Native speakers - refer to Wikipedia's List of languages by number of native speakers. The current citation next to the ranking (i.e. [1] is out of date. Can we please update the information already? Jerse 06:00, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bangla sopken in the Middle East

I am pretty sure Bangla is spoken by at least 10,000 people in some Middle Eastern countries, by large number of Bangladeshi, Indian workers. Could someone refine the Map.

But aren't they temporary residents? --ppm 05:39, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
From Iqbal50000: Hello friends. The 'temporary workers'who speak Hindi,Urdu, Swahili and other languages living/working in the Middle-Eastern countries are often stated in many websites. But, the number of Bengali speakers is never stated in these very same websites, when we all know that there are many Bengali people working/living in various Middle Eastern countries.

[edit] Good Article Nom

Don't see it anywhere on the nomination page. Does that mean it failed? Should I remove the tag at the top of the page? --Ttownfeen 16:54, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] vs. Bengali Grammar article

There's some duplication between this article and the Bengali Grammar (BG) article. In general that's probably not a problem, but the BG article doesn't mention word order (apart from postpositions), while this one does. Seems like that ought to get at least as much coverage in the BG article. Likewise the (zero) copula. Mcswell 15:10, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] FA Drive?

I think its time for a FA drive. Thoughts?--ppm 20:55, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Isupport the nom. Its time to have a FA drive.Amartyabag 06:28, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

If no body opposses, I'll give it a try. Even if a failure might "energize the base" :)--ppm 03:50, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discuss

Whoever is changing the language rank, pls discuss it here. Your own ethnologue citation contradicts your assertion, look at the numbers pls--ppm 09:58, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

But the other citation (The Role of Attitudes in Language Shift and Language Maintenance in a New Immigrant Community: A Case Study) states Telugu is 2nd most common in India.--Dwaipayan (talk) 10:59, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Right, but ethnologue, as well as other references in this talk page contradict that. The issue atleast deserves discussion here. Let's see some more references. Also, though I am not discarding that reference out of hand, it is an article on Telegu, and might seem weaker than other references that take a all-India view (like ethnologue).--ppm 12:48, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
What would finish the discussion will be data from the 2001 census. I couldn't find it, but that would convince me either way--ppm 12:59, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok. Library of Congress country profile gives Bengali as the second most spoken language in India. It gives percentage also. Pleasee see page 7 of Country profile: India (December 2004). I think this source is more dependable than either of the two references used now. Please comment.--Dwaipayan (talk) 07:27, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Regional variations

This section should probably be merged with dialect, as per FAC comments. I am holding back myself due to my, well, ignorance; but i'll give it a try unless someone else does it.--ppm 07:52, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Have a talk with SameerKhan. Then give it a go. In that case, the section "Dialect" may have to be placed down rather than just after "History".--Dwaipayan (talk) 10:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edit summaries

Please be sure to use edit summaries. --Ideogram 03:59, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map, Sound sample

Looking at the worldwide distribution map right now, I think the baby blue dots need to be changed to some other color. The dots on Rome and Athens(?) are barely noticable. Also, I believe dots should be added to Atlanta, Ga., USA and Dubai, UAE.

The sound sample that Peter Isotalo asked about in the FA nom page can be found here Image:02 abani bari2.ogg. Would someone mind finding a place to put it in the article?

--Ttownfeen 04:32, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

gave the map another try. pls take a look.--ppm 08:18, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Looks good! --Ttownfeen 03:50, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Northern West Bengal, Chittagong hill tracts

Isn't Bengal NOT the principal language of these areas? Shouldn't it be light green perhaps? Maquahuitl 16:09, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Regional usage

I wonder how justifiable the east/west dichotomy is. There are similar difference north and south. Just emphasizing differences across political boundaries seems incomplete--ppm 07:54, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] second largest in india?

some sources say it's second, others point it's Telugu that's second. one of the sources given quotes only a 1991 census. the other is from Library of Congress. Language Engineering Research Centre at University of Hyderabad states it's Telugu that's in second. This one from a Chennai and this from Hyderabad institutes' papers says telugu is second. The official government website (ending with "nic.in") says In terms of population, Telugu ranks second to Hindi among the Indian languages. Shouldn't that be reflected accordingly in the article. Idleguy 08:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

Isn't চলিতভাষা pronounced as "cholit-bhasha" rather than "cholito-bhasha"? — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 16:26, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I have heard both pronounciation in Kolkata region, though "cholit-bhasha" is probably more predominantly used.--Dwaipayan (talk) 20:13, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Interesting, I've been hearing "cholito-bhasha" or "cholti bhasha". --Ragib 20:45, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
This again illustrates regional variation :) Seniors in my family (who used to live in East Pakistan) says "cholti bhasha", whereas in my school days (in West Bengal) I have not heard this pronounciation. Here people use "cholit-bhasha", and also, "cholito-bhasha"!--Dwaipayan (talk) 06:28, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
The Standard Colloquial Bengali (SCB) pronunciation is "cholito". --Zaheen 04:30, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Is it a cognate of the Hindi word chalte meaning "going". Contextually that's how I thought of it, as just the "going & coming" "everyday" dialect. (Hope you got my train of thought).Bakaman 02:23, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Congratulations

Congrats everyone. The article is now featured ! Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 16:17, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

The writing is still unclear in a few areas. The following doesn't flow.

Some argue for much earlier points of divergence — going back to even 500 CE[6] but the language was not static; different varieties coexisted and authors often wrote in multiple dialects. For example, Magadhi Apabhramsha is believed to have evolved into Magadhi Abahatta around the 6th century; Abahatta competed with Bengali for a period of time.

The first sentence is fine on its own. The second sentence, however, is awkward. Why was Magadhi Apabhramsa brought up? Which Abahatta "competed" with Bangla? When? What was the "competition" about? How does all this relate to the statements made in the first sentence? No brilliant prose here. --Zaheen 12:24, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

The following does not sound right:

Like most other modern Indic languages, Bengali arose from the Magadhi Apabhramsha melting pot of Middle Indic languages, around the turn of the first millennium CE.

Chatterji's ODBL (1926) says on p. 91:

“ The modern represantatives of Magadhi Apabhramsa are Bengali, Assamese, Oriya, Magahi, Maithili and Bhojpuriya ”

These do not constitute "most other modern Indic languages", as the sentence under consideration suggests. Magadhi Apabrhamsa was spoken/used on the eastern parts of the subcontinent, possibly in Bihar-Bengal-Orissa region. --Zaheen 13:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] 320 million?

320 million native speakers of Bengali? Where is this number coming from? Its unbelievably high--ppm 17:10, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

About 220-230 (at least) million of that is accounted for by Bengal area. I'm unsure if Bengalis spread around the word constitute a number as big as 0.1 billion. Anyone else has any ideas? My personal hunch is this was a result of competitive inflation with other South Asian languages. urnonav 16:52, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. I think its just flat wrong. 220 sounds more reasonable. Also, apart from being totally unacceptable, I don't understand the motivation btw this contest, as regardless of the figures, Bangla will be placed in 2nd position as far as south asian languages are concerned.--ppm 20:35, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] pie chart

The pie chart shows todbhov words as being the largest component of Bangla vocabulary while the accompanying text has totshom words as the largest. Which is right? PEHook 01:52, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

the 2nd paragraph of the section answers your question--ppm 21:10, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Blanking of citation

I notice that Jerse (talk • contribs) has been removing the ranking citation repeatedly from the article. I request the user to discuss this here in the talk page before repeating the same thing. The citation clearly backs the information given in the page. This is a featured article, and undiscussed edits like this are unfortunate. Thank you. --Ragib 05:56, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, he has blanked the citation again. Note that his main argument is that the article on List of languages by native speakers ranks Bn as 7th. But that ranking is clearly arbitrary there (the two numbers column doesn't match with the ranking column). I request the restoration of the citation unless Jerse can come up with any solid argument. --Ragib 06:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I restored the citation--NAHID 12:39, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
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