Talk:Benevolent Dictator for Life

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[edit] SABDFL

I understand the consensus for not merging this with Benevolent Dictator, but I still think we should merge SABDFL into here, since it's really short and basically a minor expansion on this article. As such, I'm putting that tag back up for the moment. --ZachPruckowski 16:07, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GNU

Is Richard Stallman the Benevolent Dictator for Life of GNU? abelson 07:17, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd reserve the title for Richard Stallman for the entire Free Software Foundation - Bevo 17:42, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Origin

Was it Eric Raymond who first referred to an open source project as a "Benevolent Dictatorship"? --Rj 09:54, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)

Does Wikipedia use U.K. English or U.S. English as the standard English spelling? Because "recognising" isn't proper U.S. English. --Anon 15:47, Jan 14, 2005 (PST)
US, I think.
No. Check your facts. Wikipedia uses the variety of English relevant to the subject of an article, or if (as in this case) it cannot be sensibly described as an American topic or an everywhere else topic, either will do provided the article is consistent. The original author's choice of orthography is generally respected. "Recognising" might not be proper U.S. English, but the U.S. is not the world. — Trilobite (Talk) 01:01, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

But more importantly, does this title derive from Calvin and Hobbes?

-- Maru Dubshinki 06:10 PM Sunday, 06 March 2005

Calvin called himself "Supreme Dictator for Life", if I recall. He certainly wouldn't think of himself as benevolent ('cause benevolence isn't "cool"). - furrykef (Talk at me) 11:10, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I disagree

I disagree with the idea to merge "Benevolent dictator for life" and "Benevolent dictator". The latter is a definition of a socio-historical concept, whereas the former is a concept favored in the free/open source software world.

-- Morten Juhl Johansen

  • I think I have to agree with you Morten, the two articles are not really related. Janizary 18:22, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Me too. "Benevolent Dictator" is about political leaders, who have power on lot of people, whereas "Benevolent Dictator For Life" is just an ironic expression : the only victims of these dictators are lines of code ! JiM, 19 December 2005.
  • Very different topics - please don't merge. (Shalabh Jan 2 06 21:00 PST)
  • Similar titles don't mean similar contents. I do agree with Morten Juhl Johansen, don't merge the articles. Candamir
  • Don't merge BD and BDFL, but merge SABDFL in here. --ZachPruckowski 19:37, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] TTDPatch?

I mean no disrespect, but that project is much less well known than the others listed here. Am I alone in thinking it should be removed? This page probably shouldn't be a list of bdfl's... Brianski 02:25, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My Revert

I reverted a removal of several people from the list, wasn't sure what it was. If the user (I think it was anonymous) wants to explain the removals, I'll apologize. --ZachPruckowski 21:31, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

It's called cleaning out the crap. None of the things removed are worth noting, hell, one's a website. 65.95.125.69 20:05, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] forking is not always so easy

Of course, a project coordinator cannot really be anything like a dictator in the sense that he or she ultimately cannot enforce a decision, since a project fork is always possible.

I think that in principle this statement is not true, although it may, for all I know, be true very often in practice in the open source world. There is a huge cost in terms of time and effort to grow breakaway project of any sort. This can be very clearly seen in many of the political systems that are supposed to be "representative democracies". In theory, anyone who is not satisfied with the political parties on offer can start their own. In practice this is extremely difficult, if not impossible in many cases. Therefore the people who control the political parties (typically the backroom kingmakers) really do have power approaching that of dictators.

Perhaps it is less difficult to fork a software project than it is to create a grassroots movement in a corrupt political system, but it is difficult nonetheless.

Fork (software development) has some comments on the feasibility of forking. Inkscape might be seen as a successful fork where one reason for the fork was dissatisfaction with the existing dictator's decisions (in this case, as to what patches to accept). There are numerous examples of successful forks where the dissatisfaction is with the existing dictator's choice of licensing (OpenSSH, X.org, possibly the fledgling cdrkit project). If the great majority of developers and/or redistributors of a project are in disagreement with the existing dictator, then a fork may be successful. [The cdrkit example is interesting here in that the existing dictator was providing almost all of the development work in the original project, so it's an example of where the fork is motivated by the distributors rather than the existing developers of a project.]

[edit] Jimbo not a BDFL?

This page seems to give a lot of defference to Jimbo not being a BDFL. That definitely seems to be a POV issue.

  • Good luck getting anything to do with Jimbo NPOV. I guess he's got a complex; mind you, getting rich off porn will do that to a man.--59.121.199.100 05:07, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dictator or Passionate?

Many of the projects listed would probably devolve without the named author. Does this make them a dictator ( implies that no one else *CAN TAKE* control ) or just passionate ( no else *WANTS* control )? Without that core developer to put up with the thankless job day in and day out while maintaining a very public face and taking flack for the 1 bad bug in 10 or 100K lines of code most people would be certified insane if they actually wanted to do that job.


[edit] Arnieboy

I think that Automatix and Arnieboy don't really belong in this list!

Removed it. Its too insignificant compared with operating systems and Wine. --24.51.94.14 19:59, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] SABDFL definition : vaguer?

SABDFL is defined this way:

SABDFL stands for "Self-Appointed Benevolent Dictator for Life". It is a similar, related term widely used in Linux-related communities, for leaders that own a powerful position for particular merits.

Anyone wants to propose something vaguer than "particular merits"?--Chealer 23:50, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I removed the paragraph about SABDFL for now until the meaning is clarified.--Chealer 06:57, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Errr, a SABDFL is just one who is kept in his position through his own power rather than through group consensus. Chris Cunningham 08:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
A new definition was suggested:
SABDFL stands for "Self-Appointed Benevolent Dictator for Life". It refers to Mark Shuttleworth, whose position as BDFL of Ubuntu is due to his funding and creation of the project rather than through group consensus.
As this definition implies that Mark Shuttleworth is a BDFL, which is false, I'm moving it here again until someone proposes something better.--Chealer 06:33, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Maybe just a See Also for Mark Shuttleworth? Chris Cunningham 07:08, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Maybe, but just a link would look too weird, it would need some description.--Chealer 09:16, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Are there any other sabdfls apart from Mark Shuttleworth? He's sabdfl on irc freenode which makes it look like it's a unique nickname rather than a subtype of benevolent dictators. Secretlondon 20:00, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SABDFL

The previous item about SABDFL being too vague was resolved by 195.173.23.111:

Mark Shuttleworth uses the acronym SABDFL, which stands for Self-Appointed Benevolent Dictator for Life[1], as his IRC nickname[2] and the acronym is used in the Ubuntu community to refer to him[3].

Unfortunately, I don't see what this information is doing on BDFL except for the name, so I'm moving it here. Someone may want to create a wiktionary entry for that.--Chealer 21:21, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi Chealer, in my opinion it's notable that an open source luminary actually names himself using (his riff on) the BDFL acronym, thus I think it's worth mentioning in this article. Why, in your opinion, should SABDFL not be mentioned? I also note that you removed Mark Shuttleworth from the list of BDFLs, even though Shuttleworth verifiably refers to himself and is referred to as a (SA)BDFL. 195.173.23.111 13:28, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi 195.173.23.111. Sorry but English is not my native language and I don't understand much of your first sentence. What do you mean by "riff on"? I explained in the message you replied to why SABDFL should not be mentioned. It does not appear relevant. Thank you for the exact information about SABDFL you added to the article. I consider it exact and invite again interested people to start a Wiktionary entry using that information. I haven't seen evidence yet that Mark Shuttleworth refers to himself or is referred to as a BDFL. So for now, I am removing the information from the article and Mark Shuttleworth from the list of BDFLs. If you can provide a reference for Mark Shuttleworth being referred to as a BDFL, please do. --Chealer 23:30, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi Chealer. A "riff" is "a clever or inventive commentary or remark". Mark Shuttleworth is a notable open-source leader. He is explicitly referencing the BDFL concept with his chosen nickname. He is not referred to as a BDFL, regardless of whether he is or isn't one. I don't think he is a BDFL. However, his chosen name notably references BDFLs, and this chosen name is notable. A notable person making a notable reference to the subject matter of this page is worth including on this page. The page does not have a requirement that it can only mention people who are taxonomically BDFLs - it can mention notable references to the concept. 195.173.23.111 13:04, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi again 195.173.23.111. First, sorry about my previous removal justification. I misguessed what your first sentence meant. Thanks to your explanation, I think I understand it now. I agree that Mark Shuttleworth is a notable person and that his nickname SABDFL is notable. However, it's not clear that SABDFL makes a notable reference to BDFL. If SABDFL is a "riff on the BDFL acronym", then it may be notable, but the proposed text doesn't explain how SABDFL is a riff. I would like this to be explained before readding the text.--Chealer 05:59, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not really sure what you are hoping for when you demand clarification of SABDFL "notably" referencing BDFL. But I would request that we can at least allow the previous text (stating what SABDFL stands for and that it's Mark Shuttleworth's personal IRC nickname) into the article.
I believe it would be original research to speculate why Mark Shuttleworth calls himself "sabdfl" and "Self-Appointed Benevolent Dictator For Life", or how he thinks people will interpret his nickname. As far as I know, he hasn't given an interview simply to discuss his choice of IRC nickname. But I hope we can agree that the acronym "BDFL", when it expands to "Benevolent Dictator For Life", is a very specific acronym. If someone says just "BDFL", they could mean anything (such as Bath and District Football League). But if someone says the phrase "benevolent dictator for life", they are unlikely to be doing it in ignorance of the phrase's use in the open source community, because the phrase/acronym was coined in the open source community, and it's unlikely that someone would independently re-invent the phrase.
Further to this, Mark Shuttleworth is undeniably a member of the open source community, in his position as leader of the Ubuntu project. So not only is it generally unlikely that he says "benevolent dictator for life" without referencing the open source community's terminology, it's specifically likely that he - a notable open source community member - would not use the "benevolent dictator for life" phrase without intending it to be a reference to the common phrase used in the open source community.
So, I have difficulty understanding why you need Mark Shuttleworth to announce his intentions behind calling himself the "Self-Appointed Benevolent Dictator For Life" before you will permit a reference to him and his IRC nickname on this page. As he is engaged daily with the open source community, to me it is inconcievable that his use of the phrase "Benevolent Dictator For Life" is not a reference to the open source community's "Benevolent Dictator For Life" concept. To me, an open source leader calling themselves "Self-Appointed Benevolent Dictator For Life" can only possibly be a reference to the "Benevolent Dictator For Life" concept. 62.31.67.29 17:11, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Please notice the emphasized word in my previous message.--Chealer 17:50, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi Chealer, please notice several paragraphs of why your emphasised word is irrelevant. Both Shuttleworth as a person and his IRC nickname are notable, referenced and verifiable. You're asking for something above and beyond what Wikipedia requires. What do you actually have against inclusion of the single well-referenced sentence explaining SABDFL? 62.31.67.29 10:47, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
No. If Mark Shuttleworth or anyone's IRC nickname would be "SlashdotDude", it wouldn't be appropriate to mention that in the Slashdot article just because it's a reference from a notable property of a notable person. It's the same thing here. What I have against the inclusion of that sentence is that it brings nothing to the article and is therefore superfluous in its current form. --Chealer 20:40, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
You seem to be mistaking Mark Shuttleworth for some random non-notable person. If a notable person is also notable for their nickname, Wikipedia always mentions it (see maddog, CmdrTaco or lilo for example). If someone or something that is itself notable makes reference to another notable thing (such as Mark Shuttleworth making reference to benevolent dictators), Wikipedia includes that - in fact, whole articles and [[Category:In popular culture|entire categories]] are dedicated to saying "X references Y".
Really, so why doesn't Wikipedia include that Slashdot did a reference to Google in today's news?--Chealer 06:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Because nobody has added it yet? Go and add it. There's no "Wikipedia" central authority, just people like you and me. If you note, there's a "Slashdot culture" section in the Slashdot article, which details that Slashdot members regularly talk about Natalie Portman, In Soviet Russia, Hot Grits, "can anyone imagine a Beowulf cluster of these" etc.; X references Y. 62.31.67.29 09:51, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I, for one, think that's one of the best features of Wikipedia, I think it makes Wikipedia more useful to the average person, and furthers Wikipedia's goal of capturing the sum of all human knowledge. I disagree that the statement adds nothing to the article - it clarifies that there is such a thing as an SABDFL, that it's not the same as a BDFL and that it's the specific nickname of Mark Shuttleworth.
It's the SABDFL's article's role to indicate that there is such a thing as a SABDFL and what it is. Mark Shuttleworth already documents that it's his IRC nickname.--Chealer 06:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
This is the SABDFL article! This article is "all things BDFL", of which SABDFL is a subtopic. We've been through this already, countless times. 62.31.67.29 09:51, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
This is useful information pertaining to the open source community phrase which this article attempts to explain. If you don't like the phrasing, rewrite it - but don't delete it. If it weren't for useful factoids about the SABDFL, this article would be a dicdef and thus have no reason to exist.
Even if this article would be a dicdef, that would be an incitative to move the article to Wiktionary, not to add information in the wrong article.--Chealer 06:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
This is the "wrong" article? OK, I'll add the sentence about Mark's nickname to the eskimo or fronds article, because obviously "SABDFL" and "Self-Appointed Benevolent Dictator For Life" have no place in the BDFL / Benevolent Dictator For Life article. You make no sense! 62.31.67.29 14:53, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
As you want, but it'll be removed. AFAIK the only article in which this information would be appropriate is Mark Shuttleworth.--Chealer 18:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Who will remove it, other than you? You are the only person who disagrees with this simple statement of fact. You're the only person who thinks that "Self Appointed Benevolent Dictator For Life" is an inappropriate topic in the "Benevolent Dictator For Life" article. It's not "your" article. You are not some grand-high poobah. When I read this article originally, I would agree that it was badly written and I genuinely believed your shtick about the SABDFL text being "vague". It was vague. That's why I rewrote it to remove all vagueness. Now it seems you have a pathological need to keep SABDFL out of this article, against all rational sense. 62.31.67.29 09:51, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore, there are several independent people who keep adding SABDFL into this article despite your best efforts to remove it; that suggests that popular opinion and consensus is not on your side. 62.31.67.29 16:42, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
What this suggests much more is that people readding information about SABDFL are too lazy to do as I suggested.--Chealer 06:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Please explain yourself. What did you "suggest"? All you ever do is remove all mention of Mark Shuttleworth's nickname, even when it's well sourced and relevant to the article. 62.31.67.29 14:53, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Gah, I feel like I'm spoonfeeding here, but... Someone may want to create a wiktionary entry for that.--Chealer 21:21, 24 October 2006 (UTC) --Chealer 18:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for answering that. A wiktionary entry, whether it's created or not, would be irrelevant to this article. This article is the BDFL article. Is SABDFL relevant to BDFL? Chealer: "no". Everybody else: "YES!" 62.31.67.29 09:51, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Let me understand your position. Are you saying "When Open Source leader Mark Shuttleworth calls himself a 'Self Appointed Benevolent Dictator For Life', I want proof that he knows he's referring to the known Open Source phrase 'Benevolent Dictator For Life'"? If you read this Slashdot interview, Mark answers the question "Why was the choice to eliminate desktop icons made?" with "Because I'm the SABDFL -- and a Virgo? It just seemed like the Right Thing to do, in keeping with the Ubuntu philosophy of keeping it simple and making it Just Work.". The question is "how do you intepret this answer?". If you assume the null hypothesis that SABDFL is not in any way a reference to the BDFL concept, then Mark's response does not make sense. Being a Virgo implies fussiness and perfectionism. Being the SABDFL must imply something else. Please answer what you think Mark means by the statement "Because I'm the SABDFL", following your assumption that SABDFL is not related to the concept of BDFL or "benevolent leadership". 62.31.67.29 11:14, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
No. --Chealer 20:40, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
You have no justification for continually removing the reference to SABDFL from this article. You cannot justify your actions, so please stop 62.31.67.29 14:53, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
And you have no justification for continually readding the reference to SABDFL from this article. You cannot justify your actions, so please stop. --Chealer 18:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
You're just parroting what I said. Where your parroting falls down, the difference between you and I, is that I do have justification for inclusion:
  1. Taxonomy: SABDFL includes BDFL. SABDFL is a reference to BDFL and is only a reference to BDFL.
  2. Notability: SABDFL is the notable nickname of a notable person.
  3. Clarity: Wikipedia clears up confusion by referencing popular wrong notions and showing they're wrong. A statement like "Mark Shuttleworth is "sabdfl", but not a BDFL" is a useful and welcome addition to the BDFL article.
  4. Compactness: SABDFL only needs one sentence to explain all about it. That's not enough to merit its own article. However, putting that one sentence in relevant articles ("Mark Shuttleworth" and "BDFL") is sufficient.
  5. Cross-referencing: "SABDFL" is a term that interlinks "Mark Shuttleworth" and "BDFL". There should be a link from each article to the other.
You gave valid reasons as to why a previous iteration of SABDFL-mention was too vague. I corrected that, and you agreed that I corrected that. You have yet to give any reason why not to include the current iteration of the SABDFL mention. "I don't like it" is not a valid reason. 62.31.67.29 09:51, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] OpenBSD

Isn't Theo de Raadt the Benevolent Dictator For Life of OpenBSD?

Yes, the list that is linked has him listed. 74.13.36.27 16:43, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mark Shuttleworth is "sabdfl", but not a BDFL

Hence, please don't remove the statement making this clear. Without it, people might think he was a BDFL because he has "BDFL" in his nickname and Wikipedia is silent on the matter, failing to remove doubt. Wikipedia is more informative when it acknowledges and corrects popular misconceptions. 62.31.67.29 15:08, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Concerned about accuracy - BDs versus BDFLs

Doing research on BDFLs, it appears that the only person who is actually known as a "Benevolent Dictator For Life" aka "BDFL" is Guido van Rossum. All the others are merely "benevolent dictators", except Mark Shuttleworth who is known as SABDFL. Some of the people in Wikipedia's list have never been called or acknowledged being called "BDFL", just a benevolent dictator.

A list of notable open source project leaders is still useful, but perhaps we want to rename the "List of Benevolent Dictators For Life"? I don't want to see Wikipedia calling people something that nobody else has called them, we don't want to promulgate falsehood.

I have two possible plans:

[edit] Non-radical plan

  • Find verification for all people on the list that they have been called "benevolent dictator" or "BDFL".
  • Make the distinction in this list.
  • Make the BDFL article specific to the BDFLs.

[edit] Radical plan

  • Redirect "BDFL" and "Benevolent Dictator for Life" to Guido van Rossum
  • Redirect "SABDFL" and "Self Appointed Benevolent Dictator For Life" to Mark Shuttleworth
  • Rename "List of Benevolent Dictators for Life" to "List of open source project leaders"

What do people think? 62.31.67.29 11:40, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

It seems you're right. I created List of Benevolent Dictators for Life to reduce Benevolent Dictator for Life's size, not to be a "List of open source project leaders". If List of Benevolent Dictators for Life becomes irrelevant, it should be removed, not renamed. There is no need to choose between your "non-radical" and "radical" plans. Redirecting SABDFL can already be done. Redirecting BDFL and deleting List of BDFLs can be done once sufficient time has passed without references to non-Python BDFL usages being provided.--Chealer 18:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Done.--Chealer 00:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] BDFL and SABDFL definitions

I believe that for not English speaking people and people not much aware of the Open Source concepts a page with some small definition of the concepts could be more helpful than a straight #REDIRECT.--alex_mayorga 16:10, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Done. BDFL is now a small page linking to this one, and linking to SABDFL for completeness. SABDFL is in its own page. Ggenellina 00:16, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

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