Talk:Ben Elton

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Contents

[edit] Name

  • Note that Ben Elton was not christened Ehrenberg, Lewis Elton (his father) changed his name well before Ben was born. See Wiki article on Lewis Elton and/or Geoffrey Elton. Sliggy 08:02, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I keep editing Ben Elton's page as I find it extremely biased. I do not understand why my changes are not let stand.


[edit] Anne Robinson

Anyone wanting to even hint at slagging off any of Lord Ben of Elton's work has to go through me first. Think on....~

slag him off? There's so much I wouldn't know where to start.....Ann Robinson seems to have summed the bloke up well Harryurz 15:58, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Please check 194.78.139.231's contribution, elsewhere his/her tend to be wrong. Andres 22:31, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[1] corroborates it. --Sam Francis 00:55, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I thought the tenet of this encyclopaedia was a neutral point of view. It seems to be more a forum for opinionated people.

My main objection is that his biography finishes with the, once again, opinion of Anne Robinson. Since when did her, or anyone else opinion become fact?

Such biased biographies as this seriously damages the credibility of Wikipedia.

Thank you for engaging in dialog. I agree that if the article were to say "Ben Elton is not funny," that would be biased. However, when it says "Anne Robinson mocked him on television for not being funny," that is perfectly reasonable to include. If you want to rephrase it, go ahead, but I think it is appropriate to include the point. I will reinstate it. Uucp 16:06, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I just got back last night from Ben's live show "Get a grip" at QPAC in Brisbane Australia. I think the phrase "Get a grip" is exactly what need's to be said here. I enjoyed the show enormously. He is a great comedian. What someones personal opionion of him at any time in the past of present is not what this wiki if for. He is a comedian, and nor does he appear to be selling himself as anything but. It may be fact what Anne.R said, but what she said has nothing to do with who Ben Elton is. Perhaps post Annes comments in her wiki? [2]--Hobie14t 03:13, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I am glad you enjoyed the show, and hope Elton brings it to my continent one of these years. However, I diagree with your feelings about "what this wiki is for". The intent is to create an encyclopedia entry about Elton, not a paean. If a prominent media figure mocks him on television, this is notable and worth of inclusion on his page, even if we disagree with the mockery. Uucp 23:14, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Can you just let me know why your opinion of what should and should not be included outweighs everyone elses? If we think it inaccurate to have Anne Robinson's opinion as the closing paragraph to Ben Elton's biography, thereby summing him up, then why do you have th eright to deny it being changed? User:Fivepastfive
I make no claim to "outweigh" you. However, I have been editing Wikipedia for years and have worked on literally thousands of articles, while you have been editing for about three weeks and only on this article. I regularly read Wikipedia policies on appropriate content, and I am not sure that you have. Please accept the possibility that I am more familiar with appropriate Wikipedia content than you are. It is generally notable when somebody famous says something pointed about you on television. For comparison, consider the entry on Adam Clymer. He is a notable journalist, and his entry prominently features discussion of George Bush and Dick Cheney insulting him by an open microphone.
If you want, call for moderation of this discussion; I am pretty sure they will agree with me but if they don't, I will abide by the decisions of the moderator. Uucp 11:07, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it's worth noting that during the eighties, Anne Robinson worked for the left-leaning Daily Mirror, but recently said that she thought Margaret Thatcher was the second greatest ever Briton. Thus I think she's hardly in a position to lecture anyone on left wing politics, political consistency or indeed principles bingo99 05:10, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

A fine point for her own page but not needed here, I think. Uucp 11:52, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

If Anne Robinson's harsh critique of Elton's supposed hypocrisy are to be quoted, I think it only fair that these political inconsistincies of her own should also be pointed out. It is relevantbingo99 14:50, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Bingo, thanks for the dialog. I don't think it's hypocrisy -- her views have just changed over time. These views, and the reasons they have changed, may be interesting and worth including on her page. However, this is a page about Ben Elton, and I think that a discussion of the temporal evolution of Anne Robinson's political views would be out of place. Uucp 14:15, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Let's see what Anne says: "Anne argued that Ben should be sent to the room "for being a total and utter hyprocrite and going back on everything he stood for in the 80s and 90s".

By her own standards she's a hypocrite who's gone back on everything she stood for in the eighties and nineties. I think it's unbalanced and unfair to include her attacks on Elton's character, but not any, in these circumstances, reasonable rebuttal for the other side of the argument citing her own political transformations. Why is it okay to say "her views change over time", but let her label Elton a "hypocrite" for the exact same reasons? - bingo99 15:55, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Bingo, thank you again for the dialog. I don't think this is the place for arguing about the definition of "hypocrite," whether Anne Robinson is one or not, that should appear on her page, not Ben Elton's. Regardless, this page should not be about advocacy; she passed judgment on him in public, that's noteworthy, this isn't the place to argue that her judgment is right or wrong. (Separately, I think her phrasing is an interesting one; she implicitly grants that his work in the 1980s was interesting and important, and worth defending).
Personally, I think there is too much about Anne Robinson on the page right now. I would cut it down to one line -- say that she called him a hypocrite on her program, period. Readers will discount her views according to their own opinions of her intelligence and honesty. Those who don't know who she is can click through to her own page and learn more there. Uucp 15:27, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

If it can't be balanced then I'd remove her presence completely - bingo99 16:51, 14 August 2006

Uucp, I agree with bingo99 on this, I don't think Robinson's comments are noteworthy, and so they should be deleted (even though I agree with her!) I'd only include public criticism of person X by person Y on person X's page if it causes a media storm (such as Prince Charles' comments on Nicholas Witchell; or if person X responds (like Liam Gallagher and Robbie Williams did with each other). (Chorleypie 22:41, 12 December 2006 (UTC)}
By that standard, nothing Elton has ever done is noteworthy, as he has never created a media storm. Would you therefore like to remove the entire article? Robinson is more famous than Elton, and offered a cogent criticism of him on a widely viewed television program. It deserves to be mentioned. Uucp 23:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
No, I wouldn't like to remove the entire article. Just my opinion on the Robinson quote. (Chorleypie 22:19, 14 December 2006 (UTC))

[edit] "Anti-Royal"

The section has been recently edited to "remove untrue remark - anti-Royalist material was occasionally a feature of the Sat Live era standup." In fact this claim itself is not true. The only material Elton did about The Royals from that period is wondering why the Queen didn't use her Christmas speech to go "up your Spitting Image". Also a routine about how he thought that "Princess Diana should have married Simon Le Bon and Prince Charles should have married the Bishop of Durham". Maybe a slight dig at Prince Charles intellectual obsessions, but in the end, quite sympathetic, and it would be a tad extreme to describe them as "anti-royal". The first joke seems very supportive in fact. Being about the Royals doesn't qualify as being anti them. I have memories myself in the eighties of Ben Elton on Wogan describing Prince Charles affectionately as "a bit of a hippy, but he's alright". - bingo99 00:00, 18 August 2006

Basically a hippy can be referenced if necessary as it appears on either Motorvation of Motormouth (can't remember which) - the two recordings of Ben's performances in the 1980's. QuiteUnusual 21:44, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism

This seems very unbalanced at the moment, with uncited criticisms and a biased tone against the subject. Is any defence of these criticisms allowed? bingo99 13:14, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I can't see the problem with bias at all. This is either out of date, or over-sensitivity. The article is very fair to Ben Elton, and only at the end includes well cited and commonly known criticism from other prominent figures. Wikipedia is meant to be NPOV, but that doesn't mean coddling people in cotton wool. I would support removing the tag of bias Fences and windows 04:17, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
The only person I can see being coddled in cotton wool in the criticism section is ex-Daily Mirror journalist now Thatcher supporter Anne Robinson condemning people for going back on left wing views they had in the eighties. - bingo99 13:14, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
If you feel that Anne Robinson's politics are hypocritical, that is a topic for her own page, not here. I agree with Fences and windows; this article is balanced. Uucp 17:27, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

This is a few months down the line from this discussion, granted, but for what it's worth it the criticism section seems quite fair to me; he's a public figure, and it's written in a pretty objective tone.--Joseph Q Publique 13:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Musicals

The article states "Elton went on to write a number of compilation shows featuring popular songs". Would that number be two? DavidFarmbrough 13:56, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

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