Talk:Belzec extermination camp

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We need to make the distinction between German = run by Germans and German = situated in Germany. I hope this compromise works:

• Run by Germans
• Who were Nazis
• Situated in Poland

I edited out the explanation of what the General Governement was. We have a separate article on it and trying to explain this complex matter in just one sentence is not enough and might be misleading. The sentence that was there might've lead someone to think that the GG was some sort of a collaborationist government, while it was anything but this. The rest of the proposals seem ok with me. Halibutt 17:33, Jun 13, 2004 (UTC)

According to historian Witte, gasoline engines were used.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sobibór_extermination_camp http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer_Diskussion:Peter_Witte

--85.140.12.4 15:34, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Kurt Gerstein - checking his testimony is embarrasing. He obviously wasn't there or had some other problem with observation. He claimed Zyklon B - there were more methods used at Belzec than there were witnesses and historians. Don't you think that one method should be settled on and either explain the others away or at least ignore them - if you are allowed to. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 159.105.80.92 (talk • contribs) 19:01, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Romani

The Romani people were also killed en masse at Belzec. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Porajmos.jpg

Yeah. Why it's all "Jews"? --HanzoHattori 09:29, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ditch

"The ditch was originally excavated for of military reasons, now it was likely to serve as the first huge mass grave." Did it or didn't it? Anyone? Rich Farmbrough 17:09, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

I believe the wiki article on Richard Krege states that with ground penetrating radar he was unable to find any pits - large or small. Has his work been verified - scientically not by verbal debate.

[edit] Death toll

600,000 is not an option. It is an outdated Soviet-Polish estimate, that has been superceded by Hoefle's number. Arad has been able to prove 414,000 from known sources ("Belzec, Sobibor, Teblinka", p. 127), NOT 519,392. Thus, Belzec death toll is known more or less precisely, rounded it is 435,000 Jews. Maybe there were a couple of thousands Gypsies, but sources are needed for this. They don't change the overall picture.

"It is unclear whether the telegram includes Jews killed during deporations or in transit, or the date at which the count was taken, but it establishes an authoratative lower bound from the death toll at Belzec."

Wrong. Unless it is proven that there were more victims, it establishes the authoritative toll itself, not the lower bound. The phrase "or the date at which the count was taken" reveals ignorance - this is the data for the whole of 1942. Belzec worked as extermination camp only in 1942, so this is its complete death toll. --84.167.53.142 21:11, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

You are right, I was using quotes about Arad's numbers from another source which wasobviously incorrect; looking at Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka does give the 414,000 number. And of course Belzec worked only in 1942, I meant the starting date of the statistics given by telegram was unclear, which was an objection raised by Gord McFee. Thanks for the help on cleaning this up. --Goodoldpolonius2 21:34, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Oops! It so happens I was wrong about Arad. Let me explain. Witte and Tyas (who discovered the document) wrote:

""Arad counted 414,000 from identified towns and townships, estimating 600,000 as the lowest possible number..."

Robin O'Neil, whose article comes up when searched for "414000 Arad" also repeats the claim:

" Yitzhak Arad concluded from published sources 414,000, but estimated 600,000 as the actual lowest figure." http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/belzec1/bel160.html

Arad's language midled three scholars - and me with them. But of course, on a second reading, Arad says "IN THIS STAGE OF THE OPERATION" - i.e., from July to December. And his table does indeed exceed 500,000.

I should note, however, that it doesn't mean that Arad can be used as an argument against Hoefle. Arad's methodology is described on pp. 380, 381 - he, of necessity, relied on such vague materials as Yizkor books, made assumptions about the number of Jews per wagon, etc. Arad's numbers are not clad in stone. (Neither are Hoefle's, but they're inherently more reliable). I think I will, however, amend the article to give a little bit more perspective on estimates. --84.167.53.142 22:07, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Very well-done and researched addition, thanks. --Goodoldpolonius2 01:36, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

The guards and SS were housed across the road in two cottages. How many guards and SS were at Belzec. Two cottages seem too few, unless Belzec had a very small contingent. Also the study mentioned ( in main article " Remains of the camp") gives no link other than a Reuters report. Where can this study be read? Link?

Trying to find an independent source for Gora etal the only mention seems to be circular references. PS This and many/most holocaust wiki articles seem to be copied( or distributed ) from very proJewish - as in not scholarly - sites. Is this wiki's intent, I thought these were independent - somewhat originally written pieces. If these are all just copy and paste then why not supply the original copy and paste site also or only. No real need to search the web and run into exactly the same article multiple times.

Wiki articles on Hoefle and Korherr ( and their links ) get the name of one of the camps wrong - used the Allies postwar name for it not the German name. Has this ever been cleared up. The Hoefle memo also talks about arrivals not deaths. Much of the evidence seems to point to Belzec being a stop over point, not even a camp of permanence - probably why it seemed to disappear so completely - Krege et al were never even able to find a foundation of note ( his research of course is open to revision - GPR owners know where to go).

Krege's so-called evidence is nebulous and the man is NOT an GPR expert. His analysis of the data is deeply flawed. Moreover, have you even read the article, which mentions the archaeological work done at Belzec, which discovered the mass graves? Darkmind1970 11:23, 16 January 2007 (UTC)