Talk:Belle & Sebastian

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[edit] Comparision confirmation

I'm hearing from musical historian that B&S are reminisent of Fairport Convention, is this true? --ConradKilroy 21:01, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Some of their folkier stuff could possibly be compared to FC. I dunno though; FC often had pretty intricate arrangements, and sounded a lot like traditional English folk music, which is a sound that B&S haven't explored very much. I'd say the comparison is a little dubious. For sure, though, nobody in the band has the pipes of Richard Thompson. ;) wilhelm 15:43, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] And Vs. &

Editing in Simple Minds to the list of Scottish bands

Hey, Tokerboy: Tigermilk, If You're Feeling Sinister, Lazy Line Painter Jane, Dog on Wheels, and Legal Man all say and. Danny P.S. Storytelling too.

If it's official, go ahead and move it back, though I wouldn't trust album covers alone necessarily. I capriciously move bands to the ampersand in order to have a standard and because most bands don't have an official method of writing it -- if this is an exception, I have no problems with it being at Belle and Sebastian. Tokerboy
It's not official, other albums do use the ampersand. I just wonder what people would be more likely to look up. Danny
I dunno--that's why I always make a redirect. Really it doesn't matter as long as one leads to another, it's just nice to have a community standard to minimize the use of redirects as much as possible. The exact methods of writing groups like Guns n Roses, Bone-Thugz-N-Harmony, etc, etc are many and varied, and have a tendency to spawn multiple, competing articles unless it is nipped in the bud with the judicious and wise use of redirect pages. Tokerboy
  • Tigermilk - And
  • If You're Feeling Sinister - And
  • Dog On Wheels - &
  • Lazy Line Painter Jane - And
  • The Boy With The Arab Strap - &
  • Modern Rock Song - And
  • Fold Your Hands Child - &
  • Legan Man - And
  • Jonathan David - &
  • I'm Waking Up To Us - &
  • Storytelling - And
  • Fans Only DVD - &
  • Step Into My Office - And
  • Dear Catastrophe Waitress - &
  • I'm A Cuckoo - And
  • Books - And
  • Push Barman - And
  • If You're Feeling Sinsiter (live) - &
  • The Life Persuit - And

That's 11 'And's and 8 '&'s, obviously not enough to make a decision either way so I think it would be best to follow the Wikipedia guidelines and move it back to Belle & Sebastian.

"Unless you know otherwise, the word and in band names is always an ampersand (&), as in Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers, Jan & Dean, Richard Hell & the Voidoids"

From the official website: A. Whichever looks better in any situation is right. For my iPod I went for ampersands all the way, cos I like them. Sarah - 07/10/05 http://www.belleandsebastian.com/qasearchk.php?searchterm=ampersand
So the band are not fussed whichever is used, therefore the Wiki standards should be used. Is that correct? --SaltyWater 01:12, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree. Just as their website is inconsistent, Newsbank (UK and world newspaper archive) produces 102 pages of results for "Belle and Sebastian", 63 pages for "Belle & Sebastian", so clearly both are acceptable. Go, then, with the Wikipedia guideline: & Tearlach 05:14, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
The Wikipedia guideline (which itself differs from reality; see Jan nad Dean; image on Tom Petty) says unles syou know differnt. In this case, we do. Andy Mabbett 09:10, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
Um, no we don't - that was just proved. B&S allow either, and the WP standard is &. Folkor 19:00, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Singles or EPs?

Are we drawing a distinction between singles and eps, and if so, what exactly is the distinction? Is it a single if its title matches the title of one of the songs? Or is it based on track count (<=3; >=4)? kevinb9n

I've edited so that records where the record title matches the title of the first track are listed as singles, and other records which were eligible to appear in the singles chart are listed as EPs. Initially (ie, up to and including This Is Just A Modern Rock Song), all the band's singles and EPs had four tracks; they changed to three when the UK singles chart stopped including records with more than three different tracks. SleepyCaitlin

There's an inconsistency, though. If you go to the wikipedia entries for what are called their singles in this article, (Jonathan David, Legal Man, etc.) they are listed as being EPs there.
I'd say Legal Man and all afterwards are singles (except Books). --SaltyWater 19:26, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] What's the Source?

The article states that B&S were voted best band in Scotland, but fails to mention what organization conducted the poll.

It's from a poll conducted by The List, a Scottish music magazine - I've gadded that in now. Lawful Hippo 18:48, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Groovy

[edit] External links

I suppose I could just remove the links again with the edit summary "removed links". Instead I'll put them here and ask why we should ignore the Wikipedia:External links guideline? - brenneman(t)(c) 14:09, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

None of those links fall under any of the 8 "what should not be linked to" points. All contain information not already in this article. SaltyWater 14:17, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Jeepster is a murky one, but we generally only have one "official" link per page. Sinister and bowlie are not Wikipedia:Reliable sources, and Sinister is already linked from the B&S hompage and bowlie can be found on their qa board, and finally I have not been able to get David White's page to load.
Looking at Sinister's list of sites, what criteria have been used to choose which ones are included and why have the others been excluded? How has NPOV been preserved? "What should not be linked to" point one says, "any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article here would have once it becomes an example of brilliant prose." Do these provide that?
I'm sure these are great sites. But by putting one in and not the others, we're doing them a disservice. Additionally, our goal here is not to make sure that fans have access to up-to-date information on tours and press releases. It is to provide stable, encyclopedic content. All these links should go.
brenneman(t)(c) 14:35, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
You're really boring. SaltyWater 14:36, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I won't argue that, but it usually takes people longer than that to figure it out. I'll just assume that you don't have an actual arguments as to why these links should stay. - brenneman(t)(c) 15:15, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Who are these links hurting? It's not like they are untruthful or distracting from the article. I think the label's page for a band is kind of important, and the mailing list is awesome; I love the availability of the chords there. The forum on Bowlie I would find not as important, but still harmless and at least helpful. Obviously, a broken link should be removed. Folkor 23:07, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I have at some point been involved in three of those sites in some capacity, things I would like to point out: Jeepster own the exclusive and worldwide contract for all of the early albums, and only sub-licensed to Matador, Virgin France, etc... their site was a significant resource back in 1998 and was a prime reason the fixing of the Brit award worked. I no longer work with or are connected with them in any way, but do not doubt their historical importance to the band and what was achieved there. They should be linked to still. I agree with your arguments regards the top level links for Sinister and Bowlie, yet both offer unique and core content that does match your criteria for link inclusion, I have taken the liberty of inserting a link to Bowlie that goes to the Press Cuttings archive, which has got just about every published article that we've found in the last few years. Let me know if you find this doesn't match your criteria. Similarly, for Sinister I've linked directly to the chords, again good enough to be included according to your criteria. User:buro9

[edit] Matador cite + trivia added

I was surprised to see that the entry had no reference to Belle & Sebastian's U.S. involvement with Matador Records, so I added the info as a parenthetical aside next to the info about the move from Jeepster to Rough Trade. I also added info about Storytelling and Belle & Sebastian references on U.S. TV shows as evidence of the band's growing influence and fame on American shores. Andrewjnyc 19:12, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Twee pop vs. Indie vs. Pop

Why do people keep reverting the band's lead-in to say just pop or indie instead of twee pop? Twee pop is the most accurate representation I can think of for the band, and it's been that way in this article for as long as I can remember. If someone could present some actual arguments as to why the band isn't twee, that'd be great. Otherwise I'll just keep reverting people's edits. Folkor 09:05, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

  • I'll accept 194.80.21.10's compromise. Folkor 16:58, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, the word "twee" has acquired semipejorative connotations as an adjective meaning something that is overly and /or self-consciously cute. For that reason, the label could be misread as dismissive toward the band. In addition, a lot of B&S material has a "classical" pop sound to it that makes it seem inappropriate to shoehorn them into a subgenre like "twee". The Life Pursuit, for example, feels to me more like Arthur/Village Green Preservation Society-era Kinks than it does anything I'd call twee.--Andrewjnyc 22:39, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't and can't categorise music, but my 2cents... B&S have never striked me as twee. Soft, they may frequently be, but they've always had balls. That's not very twee. SaltyWater 01:16, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

  • I was making the mistake of mostly making my judgment solely on "If You're Feeling Sinister", which is kind of twee. However, now with a copy of the new album on my hands, and a deeper understanding of the rest of the band's catalogue, I think you guys are right. I was looking for some discussion, which I have received. Thanks. Folkor 07:45, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

When a band has a catalogue as extensive as Belle & Sebastian's, what kind of utter bozo claims to be an authority on "the most accurate" description of their music based on a judgment "solely" formed from listening to one album? I don't so much object to the word "twee" as to the false impression that someone is making knowledgeable pronouncements when really that person has no clue. Matt, 8 March, 2006

  • Woah, dude, I said sorry. I made a mistake and I apologized. As I said, I wanted some discussion on the topic, since different people (usually IPs, not registered users) would change twee to indie, and never give a reason. I then wanted other people's opinions, which I got, and then I backed down. I mean, IYFS is probably the band's best known album, and some of their other work is a bit twee too. However, I agree that the band isn't twee on the whole - thus my retraction. Again, I'm sorry; if you have a problem with me reverting edits that have no explanation from IPs that go against my previous knowledge, please just say I need to do more research instead of insulting me. Folkor 06:32, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I reworded it to mention the application of 'twee pop' only to their early music. I think you'd find it very hard to call more than a handful of tracks from DCW or TLP that sound even a little twee. TLP, in particular, is not twee at all. I think this is a fair enough change but feel free to discuss / change back. 121.44.98.174 15:33, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Geek rock"

Someone keeps adding something saying B&S are "geek rock". What a load of bullshit. I think its fair to remove any future edits as such. Notice that B&S don't actually fit into the description on the geek rock article. SaltyWater 23:15, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I had noticed that. I wonder what a "sexually muddled" sound is like? --ajn (talk) 23:18, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Belle & Sebastian releases up for CfD

Intention is to merge these to Category:Belle & Sebastian albums.

People should make their thoughts known on the Wikipedia:Categories for deletion page (search the page for it, it isn't directly linked). --DaveG12345 01:28, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Twee/Indie > Chamber

I went ahead and changed all the tags on the B&S albums/comps to "Chamber" from "Twee" or "Indie" because there seemed to be a consensus. Mchmike 04:34, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

What the fuck does "chamber" mean? SaltyWater 14:07, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Chamber from Chamber pop. Pop music that contains elements of baroque/chamber musicianship--small arrangements for strings, etc. MKV 15:52, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Can you find some sources please. SaltyWater 20:12, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Agree we need some sources, I've never heard of this genre until today. Catchpole 20:22, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
A quick search: [1] [2] [3]
etc. MKV 20:44, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Splitting up History

I think the History section is getting a little unwieldy and should be split into subsections. It would go pretty comfortably into

  • Formation and Rise to Notoriety (formation through 3...6...9)
  • Continued Success on Jeepster (Arab Strap through Campbell's departure)
  • Rough Trade Period (Dear Catastrophe Waitress till now).

Yes? No? Other organization schemes?

3 days later: I'll take that silence as agreement, so I'm just going to go ahead and divide it up.

Dan Slimmon 22:50, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cas(s)aco Marron

I'm the one who added the "Cas(s)aco Marron" single info... and yet I'm confused. The cover of the single spells it with one S, and while I don't have the "LateNightTales" CD case handy, I believe that does too. And yet I'm pretty sure the original song is rightly spelled with two S's; B&S/Azuli just messed up. Which spelling should we be using? Charolastra charolo 05:01, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] This is a very odd intro to the article

Justification for whether they should be characterised x or y. whats that got to do with their 12 year career and influence ? The intro article should sum up what they've done, impact, how they've changed,  ? By the way. not that it matters but audio galaxy classify them as Folk Rock, Indie Rock, Chamber Pop, Indie Pop, Modern Rock...not just chamber pop. Jem 13:44, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

B&S are a Scottish indie pop band formed in Glasgow in January 1996. The band rejects the "twee pop" label foisted on them early in their career. Belle & Sebastian have much in common with influential indie bands such as The Smiths and Felt, and also take in the influences of northern soul and funk. Their sense of irony and humour are traits also not usually associated with twee. Audiogalaxy classified Belle & Sebastian music as chamber pop, as they use instruments such as flute, cello, trumpet, as well as a regular violin string-section.

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