Talk:Battle of the Somme

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[edit] unlabeled entries

where did it start? which countries fought in this battle? how long did it last? how many casualties were there?


[edit] NPOV

This article appears to be written from a thoroughly british viewpoint.68.4.61.113 05:19, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Obscure paragraph

The following paragraph is unnecessarily obscure:

The tactics of tank warfare were understandably in their infancy but Rawlinson made the mistake of leaving gaps in their barrage through which the tanks could operate. As the tanks were directed against defensive strongpoints, the supporting infantry who got ahead of the tanks often faced fresh German garrisons. It was also possibly a tactical error for Rawlinson to distribute his tanks across the front rather than to concentrate them against a single point.

For example,

  • "made the mistake" -- It may be a mistake to leave a gap in a barrage. But what is the alternative? How otherwise would you avoid hitting the tanks with your own artillery? This sentence is too vague and speculative. Please give some reason why it was a "mistake."
  • "As the tanks were directed against defensive strongpoints . . ." How does being directed against defensive strongpoints affect whether or not the supporting infantry gets ahead of the slow, slow tanks? This sentence is illogical, in my opinion.
  • "It was also possibly a tactical error . . ." Is there a "best practices" rule that it is better to 1) concentrate rather than 2) distribute? This sentence is too vague, in my opinion. ---Rednblu | Talk 22:45, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Firstly, I was trying to summarise Flers-Courcelette in the main article and would eventually go into detail in the Battle of Flers-Courcelette.
  • "gap in the barrage" -- the barrage (should) fall ahead of the attack, not on the attacking infantry and tanks. Leaving the gaps meant that when the tanks failed to arrive, the infantry on these sectors encountered un-bombarded defences. The purpose of the gaps was to leave the ground undisturbed, giving the tanks good going.
  • "directed against defensive strongpoints" -- coupled with the gaps in the barrage, the infantry were doubly-damned
  • "tactical error" -- at the time there were no best practices. It's a comment on the development of Blitzkrieg tactics when tanks were concentrated in a "Schwerpunkt". "Possibly" may not be a good word but this wasn't really the point to discuss the evolution of tank tactics.
I'll expand on it when I get around to writing the 15 September article. I'm happy to drop this paragraph until then. Geoff/Gsl 23:22, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Great explanations. Great page! Contratulations. ---Rednblu | Talk 00:28, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've dropped the paragraph, replaced with more battle detail. I'll revisit the question of tactics when I do the Flers-Courcelette article when I can do a proper explanation. Thanks for pointing out the problem. Geoff/Gsl 06:28, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"Lord of the rings" author J. R. R. Tolkien were one of the men present in this battle (this is mentioned on his page). He brought little notebooks and made descriptions of what he called "hell". I believe these battles were his inspiration for the worst scenes in LOTR. How could we incorporate this into the page? --Brandnewbrain 26 Dec 2004

I was just reading for the first time earlier today looking for Tolkien in it as i knew that he had been present in the battle. Perhaps == Noteable persons at Somme == ?, there are bound to be more. -- Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 10:25, 2004 Dec 27 (UTC)
List of people that were at somme (their articles link to it): J.R.R. Tolkien, Otto Dix, Robert Graves, George Butterworth, Keith Park, John Keiller MacKay, Walter Tull (i only made it that far). -- Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 10:36, 2004 Dec 27 (UTC)

[edit] Small-scale map in the introduction

Hello. Thanks a lot to the authors of this article -- good work. It is not clear to me where, exactly, in France this battle took place. Can we have a small-scale map (showing all of France or maybe even all of Europe) near the beginning to show the general location? Actually a lot of the military history articles could benefit from small-scale maps to give context. 64.48.193.24 20:17, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I think you mean a "large scale" map. It would be nice to have. Geoff/Gsl 09:18, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Difference in Number of Casualties

I don't understand why the estimates of German casualties vary so much. If the official documents from germany say it was about 160,000 dead, and the british historian who said 680,000 was discredited then why would they have the estimate go from 180,000 to 680,000?

Casualties include missing, prisoners and wounded, as well as killed in action and died of wounds. The category of "wounded" is particularly hard to quantify. The figure "465,000 to 600,000" comes from Sheffield's The Somme:
"Recent historians have disagreed on the total of German losses. Holger Herwig gives a precise 465,000, while Richard Holmes argues 'it is harder to place them lower than 600,000'."
The official German figure is "about 500,000" for the period starting 1 July so that doesn't include losses during the preliminary bombardment. The figure of 180,000 comes from the British War Office Statistics of the Military Effort of the British Empire but it doesn't seem anyone, including the statisticians who compiled it, believe it to be accurate. Geoff/Gsl 04:29, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anglo-centric bias

This article smacks of Anglo-centric bias, written by the British, for the British. This needs a more neutral tone. We see the losses of French here were also huge...and of course the German. Not only that, we are told what the British 'back home' thought (but not the French, who lived there). Shame, shame that one would be so self-congratulatory as to give this article plaudits, when in fact the whole thing needs to be written in a more neutral tone. That is, the article should not assume the reader is from the UK. What if the reader were American? Do they see this as "British" history or as "World" history? World history, indeed.→ R Young {yakłtalk} 11:28, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

So change it then. What are your specific concerns? If you bemoan the fact there is little info from the German POV or French POV, that is because few sources exist in English - you're certainly welcome to add any useful info on the German or French experience that you may have. Your edit to the intro, however, is awkward and unsourced. I doubt the battle is as big in collective conscience as the Somme is in England, or Verdun is in France. Can you provide a quote?Michael Dorosh 13:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I've changed the article to hopefully reflect why the article seems Anglo-centric. The battle is, rightly or wrongly, the battle that has come to typify the World War I experience of Britain (in Canada it is Vimy, in Australia, Gallipoli). Incidentally, I'm not British and I think the article reads fine as is, but would certainly like to see some German and French info thrown in for balance. But if I didn't have that to offer, I wouldn't simply complain from the sidelines. Looking forward to your contributions.Michael Dorosh 13:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Combatants

Since we lump the various German posessions at the time into the 'German Empire', would it not be more appropriate to list 'British Empire, France' as the combatants on the Allied side? — ceejayoz talk 03:14, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

You are quite right. I have edited the list to reflect that in the First World War the British Empire was fully intact in the sense that all the Dominions and Colonies, although some had limited self-government, remained under the authority of Britain and fought under the Union Flag; even if a Dominion ensign was carried in some places at some time, e.g. Vimy Ridge. Contrary to the presentation of current historical revisionists who identify the Dominions as "allies", all the soldiers of the British Empire were "British" and the more appropriate differentiation would be the "nationalies" of the Dominions with "England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales". Indeed,the "Canadian Corps" was two-thirds UK born men. The Commonwealth did not yet exist and the Statute of Westminster was two decades away.--pidd 15:57, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chicago Tribune

I think we should delete the last paragraph as it gives a grossly exaggerated amount of men that were shot at dawn. Any thoughts.

  • Firstly, please sign your comments with four tildes. (~~~~) Secondly, if you have a better source, I'd go ahead and put it in the article, but don't forget to footnote it.Michael Dorosh 17:25, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

"Consciencious Objectors"

The 386 number is incorrect, there weren't 386 soldiers executed for cowardice/consciencious objection, Im not even sure if Britain executed that many soldiers in the war period, and besides I don't see what the particular number of those executed in the entire war has to do with this battle, there surely weren't 386 people executed during the battle of the Somme. I opt to remove it.

Anomaly 54 17:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New external link

I've just added a link to a new feature on our NZHistory.net.nz website. The feature was written by a professional historian and includes a number of images never before published.

I hope this is acceptable - please let me know if there is a problem with my adding this.

Jamie Mackay 20:23, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This is a wikipedia featured article!!!

I am surprised that wikepedia would elevate this article to featured article status. It probably serves well as a beginner's guide to the Somme with it's comprehensive dating and collection of facts. However the real history; the analysis and conlcusions are very poor. The fundamental conclusion of the piece is that the Somme was a success for the British. This beggars belief for anyone woth a smattering of knowledge of the Somme, the rest of WW1 and C.20th combat. This is not the place for a complete counter-thesis, but it is important that some elementary failings in the article are pointed out.

  1. in para. 2 the battle "is best remembered therefor (sic) it's first day, 1 July 1916, on which the British suffered 57,470 casualties". By section 7 (Debut of the Tank) however, "the battle is chiefly remembered today as the debut of the tank.". I would suggest the former is true but it certainly can't be both!
  2. The very same introductory paragraph states that "By the end of the battle, the British had learnt many lessons in modern warfare while the Germans had suffered irreplaceable losses." What happened to marshalling the evidence and THEN drawing conlusions? Furthermore the assertion is vacuous nonsense. Why did the British blearn lessons but the Germans didn't? Why would German losses (from apopulation of 70 million) be less replaceable than British (pop. 50 million)?
  3. It may be historically true that the British Official historian stated that, "It is not too much to claim that the foundations of the final victory on the Western Front were laid by the Somme offensive of 1916." But it doesn't make his the statement true. Surely there is more to history than quoting the participants?
  4. The section on the debut of the tank is accurate in detail but flawed in its basic thrust. Apparently, "The British had high hopes that this secret weapon would break the deadlock of the trenches"? Which British? Not the High Command who had little or no interest in new technology such as tanks. Those British who did support tanks had advised that the tank NOT be thrown in hastily into the unsuitable Somme battle. Haig threw them in for political reasons and thus threw away the potential surprise effect. The big story in the inrtoduction of tanks is not their use but their mis-use
  5. The last paragraph in the 'Tanks' section appears to have nothing to do with tanks but is perhaps part of the chronological sequence.
  6. The conclusion that "the Battle of the Somme delivered more benefits for the British than it did for the Germans" may be true but its is entirely unsupported by the evidence of thsi article. It should be removed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pmurnion (talk • contribs) 00:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC).

[edit] its gone

Someonoe has just deleted it... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.6.232.228 (talk • contribs) 18:24, 30 November 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Lacking sources for casualties data

Like said in title, the casualties are often disputed, the source for the location of that data should be quoted. GBobly 23:01, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] featured?

I'm confused - is this featured or not? This edit added the featured template Jooler 00:23, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

That's an edit by the FAC director, so yes it's featured.LuciferMorgan 00:43, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I got confused, but I don't think the NPOV tag is appropriate. The IP who added the tag didn't elaborate on his concerns. Jooler 00:57, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hawthorne Ridge Mine

According to this article, "Zero-hour for the Battle of the Somme was 7:30 a.m. on 1 July 1916. Ten minutes prior to this, at 7:20 a.m., the mine beneath Hawthorn Ridge Redoubt was detonated by an officer. The reason he detonated the mine earlier than was planned is unknown." However, the Hawthorn Ridge Redoubt article gives an explanation for this. Which article is correct? Seleucus 00:49, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Auto peer review

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Mal 03:17, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] == error in prelude? ==

The last paragraph of the prelude states that the Englisch had with air superiority with "... ten squadrons and 185 aircraft against the 129 German squadrons". Shouldn't this be "...against the 129 German planes"? (In ?? squadrons). As I have no sources to check the numbers I hesitate to change it myself. Pukkie 09:35, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Weasel Words

I feel the Conclusions section is full of weasel words. I don’t think it’s appropriate for the author to simply label viewpoints with which they don’t agree as “revisionist”. Clearly some of the figures and viewpoints can indeed be discounted, but much of the time few definitive conclusions can really be drawn. It all adds up to a thoroughly POV end to the article, which is a shame. --62.173.76.218 11:57, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree. A point-counterpoint format can effectively rebut contraversial statements without the need for weasel words. However, point-counterpoint formats do require extensive citation. I have removed the POV wordings and introduced a citations flag. Any individual who can help add to the citation for this section would be greatly appreciated. Djma12 20:05, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] F. Scott Fitzgerald "Tender is the Night"

Scott Fitzgerald writes very nicely about the Battle of the Somme in his book "Tender Is The Night" (Book I, Chapter XII [1])

"Dick turned the corner of the traverse and continued along the trench walking on the duckboard. He came to a periscope, looked through it a moment; then he got up on the step and peered over the parapet. In front of him beneath a dingy sky was Beaumont Hamel; to his left the tragic hill of Thiepval. Dick stared at them through his field glasses, his throat straining with sadness... ...“This land here cost twenty lives a foot that summer,” he said to Rosemary... ...“See that little stream—we could walk to it in two minutes. It took the British a month to walk to it—a whole empire walking very slowly, dying in front and pushing forward behind. And another empire walked very slowly backward a few inches a day, leaving the dead like a million bloody rugs. No Europeans will ever do that again in this generation.”"

I think it is worth to put it into the main article. What is your opinion? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.34.8.212 (talk) 16:11, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

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