Talk:Battle of New Orleans

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No Jean Lafitte? Ortolan88

Yep, check now. I also added an analysis.

Signed, Drake


Contents

[edit] one more thing

Who is John Lambert, and why is he listed in the English Commander section? If anything, it should be Alexander Cochrane who was the commander in chief of the British war effort in North America.

--maestro876 7-8-2006

I assume you didn't actually read the text of the article, wherein John Lambert is identified as the general who assumed command on Pakenham's death. Wikipedia identifies the commanders of the specific fighting units engaged in battle, not the overall commanders-in-chief (in which case James Madison ought to be listed in place of Andrew Jackson by your reasoning, and I think we can both agree that makes no sense, as the President of the United States is rarely involved in military decisions at the strategic level).--chris.lawson 15:56, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Post-Battle Analysis

I tried to add:

"The British government considered the Louisiana Purchase illegal, and therefore had they seized New Orleans, they could have retained it under the premise of returning it to its rightful Spanish owners. Thereafter, the British would have held control of one of the United States' key avenues for commerce, the Mississippi River, giving them a stranglehold on the American economy."

In place of:

"This is because it has been speculated that had the British been in control of the key port of New Orleans, they would have attempted to use this to seek additional concessions from the United States. However this is a somewhat falacious argument since the British government had already ratified the treaty. A comparison is with the Battle of the Saintes in the American War of Independence, which did have an effect as it actually affected peace negotiations."

It was reverted for the stated reason that there was no source for the claims. It seems to me, though, that what I replaced doesn't have any source either, so what makes mine worse?

Also, I think my argument makes sense. Cochrane and Pakenham knew that there was a peace treaty due at any moment, and that it was very likely that one was already on its way across the Atlantic towards them. If, as the previous writer argues, a British seizure of New Orleans would have been meaningless, why did Cochrane and Pakenham go ahead with the assault? Both were successful veterans of the Napoleonic Wars, and would not have needlessly thrown away the lives of their men. Clearly, the British commanders expected some sort of payoff for success since they went through with the attack.

Finally, it is an established fact that the Spanish government refused to recognize the validity of the Louisiana Purchase. Of course, by 1815, the government in Spain was one installed by Britain, and held their full backing. Therefore, despite the provision in the Treaty of Ghent stating that "All territory, places, and possessions whatsoever taken by either party from the other during the war, or which may be taken after the signing of this Treaty[...]shall be restored without delay", the British could have taken the position that the United States never legally possessed New Orleans in the first place, and therefore were not required to return it. Perhaps this was a flimsy justification, but since when did that ever stop the British?

-- maestro876 12:12am PST July 8 2006

[edit] Casualties

I've added a note in the source of the page (an HTML comment) advising editors not to change the casualty figures without understanding the difference between "casualties" and "dead". There seems to be a great deal of innocent confusion on the part of various editors. For clarification, "casualties" means "dead AND wounded". I -- or someone else -- have had to revert this about 10 times in the last six or seven months. Hopefully this will stop it. —chris.lawson (talk) 30 June 2005 16:10 (UTC)

To aviod confusion I put Killed or Wounded, for those who don't know what Casulties mean.- Mitran

Yes, and I reverted it, because it's a) redundant and b) ugly. Clearly people who wish to change the numbers are going to do so regardless of their understanding of the concept of "casualties".—chris.lawson (talk) 12:54, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Well than don't complain about having to keep on reverting it, if you are that stubborn.

dude go easy on the lad, he's trying to hlep -Wolfie001 22:09, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Amusing

Usually the victors write the history; however this article is almost an editorial promoting the British POV. Hmmmm. Pollinator 05:02, September 11, 2005 (UTC)

Feel free to correct any inaccuracies in the text. Bastie 13:31, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't think it's a case of inaccuracies so much as a problem with who gets more face time. But, I did take off the comment proclaiming ladders to be an excellent plan, as that is subjective and really unknown whether it would've worked or not. Jared s 22 05:30, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Additions

It might be worth mentioning that Congreve rocks were used and that the American ramparts were made out of cotton bundles.

Maybe put a link to the National Park Service website for the battlefield?

That's an excellent idea. Feel free to be bold and do it. :)—chris.lawson (talk) 03:14, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Though many commemorative prints show them, it's a myth that the American rampart was constructed of cotton bales. It was an earthen rampart, made of mud excavated from the Rodriguez canal and held in place with timbers scavenged from surrounding plantations. Some bales were used as platforms for the batteries, or to line the gun embrasures (until they caught fire). Jackson's topographical engineer, Howell Tatum, describes the construction, as does Major Latour, his chief engineer. Nolajake 17:26, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

  • I reckon they'll just have to change the words to "We stood beside our earthen ramparts and didn't say a thing." That just doesn't flow the same, somehow. Wahkeenah 17:49, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Questions

Does anyone know how to identify the dead from this skirmish? I have an obituary for a man which reports his father died there. I want to find out who his father IS. Please advise: cedmonds@ursuline.edu

[edit] Ladders a Deciding Factor at New Orleans?

I am curious about the source of the conclusion that the lack of scaling ladders made the difference in the outcome of this battle.

I do not have my sources in front of me, but my understanding of the course of the battle, and a visit to the ground (much of which has washed into the Mississippi, yes, but much of which was intact, at least before Katrina,) lead me to nominate a number of other factors as more important.

1. The death of Lord Packenham at an early stage of the battle 2. The failure of a British doctrinal choice to approach the American lines, manned by militia reiforced by a few regulars, in full view over open ground, with the expectation that this would frighten the Americans away. 3. The relative effectiveness of the American soldiers' personal weapons, given the choice described in item 2, above; also their unexpected experience as warriors, since the American frontier was a pretty violent place.

Again, looking at the ground, which is very level, the American line was behind a shallow canal, and built up with some earthworks, but also "fortified" with cotton bales. The utility of ladders is not apparent in contemplating an assault on such a line. Fascines (bundles of sticks or straw) might have been useful to get across the canal, but most accounts of the battle suggest that American gun fire stopped most British formations well short of those lines.

See this article: http://www.danielhaston.com/history/war-1812/neworleans-battle.htm, purported to have been written by a former manager of Chalmette National Historical Park, the site of the battle. 199.233.178.253 21:22, 5 January 2006 (UTC) David Keith Johnson, Seattle, WA

[edit] Removal of section

I removed this from the article:

==Analysis of British defeat==
{{POV-section}}[Shrinked after removal]
The British were defeated at the Battle of New Orleans because of a lack of preparation. It had been planned to bring ladders to mount the American rampart. In the actual battle, the British made a tactical mistake of great cost: The regiment in charge of assaulting with the ladders were delayed in forming, so Packenham chose to assault without them at the head of the column, and by the time they were able to reach the front, it was far too late
Contributing to the defeat was a lack of communication. Had the British troops been able to notify the entire attacking group that they did not have the ladders, the battle may have been salvageable, or, at the very least, a less costly retreat. However, the troops in the rear of the formation were waiting for the Americans to be chased off their rampart, at which point they would engage them. However, each small group of soldiers fought on its own. It was reported (though disputed) that a group was actually seen which had forgotten its weapons.
The last factor was weather, or rather a misjudgment of the weather. The British were stationed not only near a large swamp, but also at a much lower position. In the swamp, dense fog had made visibility low, and the British planned to use this to their advantage. They would be concealed in fog, while the Americans on the rampart above were exposed. On the day of the battle, Pakenham and his men stormed out of the swamp and up to the American rampart, only to discover that there was no fog where they were. Pakenham also waited too late in the day to attack, and any of the fog there may have been was gone.
Embarrassing for Pakenham, normally an excellent military strategist and tactician, simply made too many mistakes. This is considered one of the worst defeat in British history; one of Britain's top officers fell to poor planning.

This whole section is original research and possibly unverifiable. We do not do analysis here. Just state the facts. If you want to cite historians who analyzed the battle, that would be fine, but there is no need to do our own analysis. Thanks. --LV (Dark Mark) 20:32, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of text

Have removed following text (by soundly defeating the top military force in the world, the British army), as this is unsuported. The British Navy DID have a reputation as the best in the world even prior to Waterloo, but the British army did not. Even at Waterloo the British only won when a second non-British army (Prussian) came to their aid.

Fair enough you're right. Dermo69 22:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Decisive

How was this decisive anyway?The peace treaty had already been ratified by the British, it didn't change the outcome of the war. Dermo69 22:24, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps "lopsided" or "overwhelming" is a better word? "Decisive" isn't used in the context of "having decided the outcome of the war" but more "very clearly in favour of one side".--chris.lawson 01:38, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
No I don't agree.Just because a battle was "very cleary in favour of one side" should it be called decisive.Only if it was important in a strategic sense.Of course this battle was important in that it created a sense of national unity and accomplishment for the United States.But that's not strategic and conflictboxes should only be about war.And a victory should only be stated as deicisive when it changed the outcome of that war.And the battle of New Orleans did not. Dermo69 16:53, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Might I refer you to definition 3 here.--chris.lawson 03:40, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
But look at definiton 1. Dermo69 15:59, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
As I suggested initially, if you can think of better wording, please feel free to use it.--chris.lawson 22:00, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
It changed the outcome of the campaign. The British goal was to capture New Orleans and control the Mississippi--they were decisively defeated in that goal because of the battle and they turned back (all before hearing about peace at Ghent). Rjensen 22:18, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for the late reply but the battle could not have been decisive.The peace treaty had already been ratified by the British it just hadn't been heard about.The British couldn't have changed so the battle did not change the outcome of the war. Dermo69 17:47, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Again, you're missing the point. The battle was decisive in both the first and third definitions of "decisive".--chris.lawson 02:38, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

The reason the battle was "decisive", beyond the immediate goal of repulsion of the British forces at New Orleans, was the larger picture of the attitude it contributed to. After having beaten the British twice in the space of a generation, the Americans were convinced they could do anything. They still pretty much feel that way. Wahkeenah 18:08, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Vastly" powerful British army

I made both of the recent edits to this (once when I wasn't logged in). Although we are now directed to the relevant page of Ward's book, I would be a lot happier if this were directly quoted from an original source. I don't have the Ward book; having looked it up online, it appears to be a perfectly respectable scholarly book. One Amazon reviewer says: "Ward makes a very compelling argument and thouroughly supports it throughout the book with relative evidence including a variety of newspaper articles and headlines, political cartoons, speeches, poems, songs, letters, diaries, euolgies, government documents, and historical biographies." If this is the case, then presumably there is evidence for the 'vastly powerful' army quote; if so, could we have it, please. At the moment (bearing in mind that it's not in quote marks in the article), 'vastly powerful' could be written by any Wikipedian, and I have little way of knowing whether it's true or not.

One of the edit comments is that "Americans heard that Brits were shipping in the army that defeated Napoleon". You could pick holes in this if you wished; the army wasn't commanded by Wellington, and the British army at Waterloo was 67,000 strong, not 8,000. However, if that was what the Americans truly believed was attacking New Orleans then this is historically very interesting. But it should be presented as such: "the Americans believed a vastly powerful army, the same that had defeated Napolean, was coming" [and give contemporary source, e.g. "letter XYZ, cited on Ward p4"). At the moment we are given the impression that Jackson triumphed against vast odds, and I don't think 2-1, attacking a prepared position without artillery support, could reasonably be described as such. The British attack didn't even come close to success, and by the sound of it wouldn't have succeeded even without the ladders fiasco.

As I understand it, Ward is interested in how Jackson came to represent American ideals at the time, and presumably the popular belief he triumphed against 'vast' odds is part of this, and we should definitely have this in the article. But it should be presented as such, a belief, rather than a fact.

Yes I am British, but I don't think this is bias on my part; you can see similar myth-making in the British defeat of the Spanish Armada, for example. (The numbers of fighting ships (as opposed to ships mainly carrying troops) on each side were fairly similar; the Armada didn't have a 'vast' superiority). The myth is historically interesting, but it should be acknowledged as such.

--Merlinme 14:18, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Or, to put it more succinctly, if we say that a 'vastly powerful' army should always win a battle unless there are exceptional circumstances, what were the exceptional circumstances in this battle? It would surely be more accurate therefore to say that "The nation believed a vastly powerful British fleet and army had sailed for New Orleans", rather than "The nation knew a vastly powerful British fleet and army had sailed for New Orleans".

--Merlinme 14:30, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Remini (1:293) says "It was generally known [on East Coast] that an invasion force of monumental size had formed...to strike a blow." I changed that to "vastly powerful". The British War office wanted Wellington to take command but in the end they sent his brother in law Pakenham. The reports from Europe were that the British were sending Wellington's army (they sent part of it) and no one in US knew how many. Jackson himself said 25,000 were coming [Remini 1:237] (The fleet had about 14,000 men, 4 times what Jackson had.) Rjensen 14:29, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Which is all fair enough- why don't we put some of this in the article? I wouldn't quibble with a statement along the lines that "Jackson had inflicted a heavy defeat on a large force which had been widely feared would take New Orleans [and then quote Ward and the 25,000 figure here]. --Merlinme 14:42, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Could I have an answer to this please? Or I'm happy to make the edit myself if you'd prefer. Thanks, merlin. --Merlinme 10:19, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure what's needed. The point is that Americans were almust sure they would be beaten and then suddenly heard of a great victory followed by peace, leading to exultation. Rjensen 10:55, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I've edited the article to clarify that the nation believed a vastly powerful army was coming, as this is surely the point. Hope you agree this is helpful. --Merlinme 15:52, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I would fix it myself, assuming I could anyway, but I have no other knowledge of this article and I'm sure there is someone more capable than I maintaining it. I did just notice, however, that the last sentence in the opening paragraph is not complete.

Thanks

WDRev 21:48, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] numbers--Wiki relies on named experts

people who have alternative numbers of casualties that differ from Remini's standard work need to cite their sources and explain why they are credible. Rjensen 00:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Treaty of Ghent

This article should be made to show that: 1. News of the Treaty of Ghent did not reach anywhere in North America, not just Louisiana 2. The battle did potentially affect the outcome since by its own terms, the Treaty of Ghent did not end the war until exchange of ratifications, and not only had the U.S. not yet ratified, and didn't ratify until after news of this battle, but the British Diplomat could have had contingency instructions not to exchange ratifications if he had news that New Orleans had been taken and British diplomats often did have secret contingency instructions 3. Because, as referenced by another writer below, the British didn't regard the Louisiana purchase as being legitimate and there is some reason to believe that the British would have taken exactly that position with regard to not returning New Orleans if taken.

I have cited the source for all of this: “The War of 1812 by Harry L. Coles. 1965 by The University of Chicago. In the chapter titled “Jackson and the War in the South”

I can’t comprehend why I was blocked from editing when it was I who had a scholarly source and the other guy who was just continually revert editing without citing any sources. Clearly the wrong person was blocked. I am starting to understand why some have little regard for the Wikipedia, apparently facts don’t matter.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.31.196.129 (talk • contribs) 18:33, 15 March 2007.


  1. date of news arriving on east coast is irrelevant in a history of the battle.
  2. Both nations had firmly decided on peace on Dec 24. The peace treaty was a technicality because it had no substantive changes to the status quo. As Coles points out we do not know what the British instructions were. HOWEVER we do know that when the british off Mobile heard of the Dec 24 treaty they immediately sailed home. Their instructions therefore must have been to sail home if peace came.
  3. The British as Coles points out were undecided what to do with Louisiana if they captured it. By December however Wellington had clearly insisted on peace as soon as possible. It would have taken a very strong force indeed to hold New Orleans with a huge American population nearby, and a continued very expensive and unnecessary war with USA.
  4. the main point is that both nations wanted peace and got it, the technicalities of ratification are irrelevant. Rjensen 01:48, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] error

Hello, I'm new here & hope I'm observing the proper procedure for bringing to your attention a minor error in the article. It is claimed that "Major Gabriel Villeré commanded the Louisiana Militia..." In fact, Gabriel Villeré's father, Maj. Gen. Jacques Philippe Villeré, commanded the Louisiana militia. It's a small thing, but it caught my attention. General Villeré's papers are held by the Williams Research Center in New Orleans. Thank you. Nolajake 17:50, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

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