Talk:Battle of Mogadishu (1993)

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Contents

[edit] Listing of Military/Civillian deaths

I've reorganized the killed/wounded section to provide equla emphasis to civillian and military casualties, and also, I've taken the liberty of moving the exhaustive list of U.S. casualites to a separate table. From an international perspective, there's no reason that U.S. fatalities should deserve more "ink" than Somali or Malyasian. --Whiskey Pete, 24 November 2006 17:29 (UTC)

The US got more ink then Malaysian dead simply because there were more dead. Somali dead because there simply wasn't a list to be printed. The US list should be brought back into the article, forks are only for topics that are too long for the main article, and are likely to expand further. The US causality list is highly unlikely to expand. PPGMD 16:33, 23 November 2006 (UTC).

Okay, let's have a vote on all the relevant issues, then. --Whiskey Pete


[edit] To list US personnel killed on main page, or not

[edit] Proposal #1: List of U.S. personnel killed should be moved to separate table

See the proposed page providing a list of U.S. Military Personnel Killed in the Battle of Mogadishu as a separate table
  • Yes, because having the table on the same page is distracting visually, and gives undue emphasis to military deaths over civillian deaths, and to US dead over the dead of other nations. Also, per PPGMD's criterion, the main page will start to look awfully crowded once things even out in Mogadishu, and authorities get around to compiling full lists of civillians killed/wounded, and (for military personnel) militia memership, posthumous rank, and medals awarded. --Whiskey Pete, 24 November 2006 18:15 (UTC)

[edit] How to order mention of those killed/wounded

Note that by Paksistani, I'm refering to the 2 personnel wounded on October 3-4, not the 24 soldiers killed on June 5, 2003.

[edit] Proposal #2a: Participating nations should listed in alphabetical order

This would mean the list goes: Malaysian, Pakistani, US, Somali
  • Yes. From am international perspective, there's no reason that US dead are of greater interest than Malyasian or Somali. One death cannot be compared with that of another, and an alphabetical listing seems to avoid pointless debates about who "sacrificed" more. --Whiskey Pete, 24 November 2006 18:04 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal #2b: Participating nations should listed by number of killed

This would mean the list goes: Somali, US, Malaysian, Pakistani
  • Weaker Yes. At least it'd be objective criterion. -- Whiskey Pete, 24 November 2006 18:05 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal #2c: Casualties of intervening nations should be listed first; then Somali casualties

Any takers for this option?

[edit] Outline and structure

I just reverted your edits because there were WAY too many misspellings to correct. Also the Consequences section should be above the Book and movie discussions and the list of the dead because it is much more relavent to the article then those sections.PPGMD 17:43, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
What are you talking about, man? I made a couple of typos at 17:37, and corrected them by 17:40. The diff of your rv (at 17:41) over mine of 17:40 does not show any misspellings corrected. BTW: 'noteable'; capitalizations of 'Consequences', 'Book'; 'then' => 'than', etc. --Whiskey Pete
There are hardly enough active editors in this article for a vote. I kept your ordering, I only removed the seperate civilian section because there would be too much cross over and added the US dead back in. Short of doing residue anaylsis of the persons cloths and hands it would be hard to tell a militiaman from a civilian if they didn't have a gun in their hands. I agree that this article is cluttered, I think that a lot of the background should be moved to Operation Gothic Serpent and Restore Hope articles. In the highly unlikly event that authorties are able to build a list of Somali dead then I believe the entire section should be forked out, not just the US section.PPGMD 17:36, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
The 3 year-old daughter of Maria Osman was presumably not carrying a gun when a Black Hawk fell on the Osman family house, so by your criteria, I've added her to the list of civilian deaths. --Whiskey Pete
Thats one death compared to 1000-2000 possible dead. Wounded are of no conseqences and are mentioned. It's a list of the dead, since wounded are already mentioned in a section above. PPGMD 01:05, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Also I removed references to the wounded in that section. Only the dead are notable, if you really wanted to we can add the 73 US wounded, but I don't think that is nearly as notable as a list of the dead. PPGMD 17:46, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Objectives again

We know what TFR's objectives were and they accomplished them (we have citations from several places that show this). The SNA objectives, if they had any, are unknown, so how exactly can we sum up their result? That entry is Original Research without a citation to point out what the objectives of the SNA. The only know results are the Military result of TFR, and the political result in the US from the media coverage. On a military level we can cite that TFR achieved it's objectives. Can we cite that the SNA achieved theirs, if they had any in the first place? They certainly didn't prevent Aidid's men from being captured. PPGMD 17:10, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Links with UBL

Can someone provide a source for the assertation that UBL's group provided funding and the know how to rework the RPGs? PPGMD 17:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC) nananananannannannannaanannananananannaaannanaaan i love you

[edit] Links with Al-Qaeda - impossible timeline?

Reading the overall article the following paragraph appears to have a timeline inconsistency:

"Four and one half years after the Battle of Mogadishu, in an interview in May 1998 [2], bin Laden disparaged the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Somalia, after eighteen American soldiers were killed and two of them had their bodies dragged through the streets. Some interpret his statements to mean that these events inspired his elaboration of later large-scale terrorist actions such as the first bombing of the World Trade Center, the bombing of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, Khobar Towers, USS Cole, and the 9/11 attacks."

The interpretation that the events in Mogadishu in some way influenced the later "first bombing of the World Trade Centre" cannot be true if the dates in the article are correct. Battle for Mogadishu occurred in October 1993 and the first WTC bombing occurred on February 26 1993, with planning said to have started in 1991.

The other events are post BoM, and therefore are relevant to the article, however I believe the reference to the first bombing of the WTC is incorrect and should be removed.

--purchasea 08:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of casualties

Hi all. I've removed this section as per What Wikipedia is not, which explicitly states that Wikipedia is not a memorial. I hope you understand. Proto::► 13:38, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Listing the names of those that died in the operation (including known dead from the Somali side) is not a memorial, it's simply a list of those that died. PPGMD 17:19, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] This is a battle? =

A battle is fought between two combatants. This horror was the unfortunate pitting of regular military forces against savages who use women and children as human shields.

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