Talk:Battle of Britain

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Battle of Britain article.
This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.
Article policies
Good article Battle of Britain has been listed as a good article under the good-article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a review.
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
Good article GA This article has been rated as GA-Class on the quality scale.
Battle of Britain is included in the 2006 Wikipedia CD Selection, or is a candidate for inclusion in the next version. Please maintain high quality standards and, if possible, stick to GFDL-compatible images.
Other languages WikiProject Echo has identified Battle of Britain as a foreign language featured article. You may be able to improve this article with information from the Swedish language Wikipedia.

An event mentioned in this article is an August 13 selected anniversary

Contents

[edit] GA Review

I've put this on hold as a Good Article for the time being. While there's a great deal good about it, I think there are a number of issues which stop it meeting the Good Article criteria currently. Some of these are down to the high-profile nature of the article's subject - all the more reason to get it up to GA standard. Areas where I feel the article doens't meet the WP:WIAGA criteria:

  • 1b - Structure. At present I don't think the structure helps the article flow. While the idea of dealign with strategy and tactics before a chronological account of major clashes is basically sound, I think it's a bit rough. Here are some suggestions which may be useful: I am not sure that four sections on both sides' strategy and tactics is necessarily the right way to go about it: perhaps merge each nation's strategy and tactics secions? Each section also seems to deal with the issues about intelligence, electronics and reconaissance; could the 'battle of the beams' section be merged into a strategy/tactics discussion? Should there be sections on the forces deployed, perhaps with the relevant technical comparison and the debate about jsut how many effective planes the Germans had?. The 'bomber command/coastal command contributions' and 'foreign contributions' sections could also be merged into this bit.
  • 1c - Style. My main concern here is that the article has a bit too much purple prose. E.g. Luftflotte 5 was 'unleashed'; the Stuka "simply too vulnerable"; Goering, the 'technically inept' Reichsmarshall makes 'fateful' decisions; Polish pilots' hatred of the Germans 'bordered on the fanatical'. These sorts of statements may be true but they either need to be sourced or toned down; the article still reads a bit like a tabloid. Fewer uses of 'Nazi' to refer to Germany would also be welcome.
  • 2c - citations. There is a great deal of potentially controversial material in the article and it needs to use more inline citations.

Anyway those are the main issues I can see. Any questions just ask! The Land 21:04, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. I'll try to get the sections combined, and eliminate some of the more poetic phrases. I'll also try and get some more inline quotes in there, but I currently have access to only two of the sources so it would be nice if somebody else could help out as well Abel29a 23:56, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I've restructured the article, hopefully for the better, to get a more logical flow of information. I've also added a number of cites, but the source selection for cites is narrow as it stands now. I've also tried to get rid of some of the overly proseic language.Abel29a 15:57, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to promote a) the article has been on hold for 7 days and I think the issues have been addressed quite well. I am sure there is room for further improvements but I think it is well within the criteria for Good article status. In a month or so you should in any case submit it for peer review with an eye to getting Featured article stuatus.Peter Rehse 10:54, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Conflation of Schwarme and Finger Four

Recent edits have sought to conflate the concepts of the "Schwarme" (Luftwaffe) and "Finger four"(RAF). While they have similarities in terms of paired fighters making up four machine sub-units it is my understanding that the actual formations were not identical/equivalent. There is a picture of spitfires in what I believe to be a finger four type formation here [Image:01097628 062.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:01097628_062.jpg] it is quite distinct from the Schwarme. --Sf 16:23, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

As I understand it, the Finger Four was the RAF term for the Luftwaffe Schwarm formation, which was later adopted in a modified form by RAF. But I might very well be mistaken. I'll remove the finger four label for now Abel29a 16:28, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
That's my understanding, too, & it's certainly the impression Deighton leaves in Fighter. As for Allen's Battle of Britain, Beurling's Malta Spitfire, or Johnnie Johnson's book, I don't recall. Trekphiler 21:53, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
There's a diagram of the RAF variation here [1] see page 55. It is attributed to Sailor Malan but no specific term is given for it. I must be mistaken in assuming this was the finger four - I'll go with the other explanations offered. --Sf 09:11, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This really needs a link to The Blitz

(5) Phases of the Battle (5.4) Raids on British Cities os popularly known as "The Blitz", and since there's an article on the subject, there really should be a link there. Perhaps:

Main article: The Blitz
The Blitz is already linked to under the Luftwaffe Strategy section. Generally subjects are only wikilinked once per page.Mumby 11:45, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Altough that is the generally correct, Mumby, I think making a main article link in the Blitz section is appropiate, to allow interested users reading that section direct access to the Blitz article, without having to hunt through the Luftwaffe strategy section.Abel29a 15:47, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Caution needed with references

I don't think it is a great idea to have the article so dependant on Bungay's 'Most Dangerous Enemy' for its references. Bungay is primarily a management consultant and this was his first book, that is not to say that it is not an excellent history book, but I think it is in the interests of the article to use as wide a range of references as possible. I know this is time consuming (and expensive if you want to buy them all!), but I think it is worth keeping in mind.Mumby 11:40, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

You have a point indeed - I only have access to his book and Len Deightons one (which I plan on adding references from as well), so I'm somewhat limited in sources. I hope somebody else can add more refs from other sources, to either support Bungays claims, or point out differences - but I figured I'd add the refs from the one source I used when making additions to the article, as a starting point for people wanting to check my additions.Abel29a 15:25, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Its not like there is a dearth of information - you have a huge bibliography list. Great if some of those could be incorporated as in-line references. When this article gets sent for peer review - the heavy reliance on one or two references will come up.Peter Rehse 10:53, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. I think the main problem is that it is time consuming, but we will get there. Does anybody know if there are any books that are considered 'key texts' when it comes to the Battle of Britain? Should we focus on using them as in-line refs if possible? Mumby 11:12, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I note that material that I had taken the time to check and had referenced from another source has now been amended in a manner inconsistent with the original source and the reference has been removed. Not an encouraging sign really --Sf 11:51, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Ooops that was my bad.... I put the Price ref on the same line as the Bungay ref, seeing as they both supported the same claim, but on review I see it completely obscures the Price ref - I've split them in two again. In what way do you feel the current information is not consistent with the original source? I apologise if I've changed something there that I shouldnt have. Abel29a 12:16, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
See isn't wikipedia wonderful. Its a big article these things sometimes happen but are easily fixed.Peter Rehse 12:20, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Hopefully I've fixed it by re adding the Front line pilots line - Please check to make sure Sf. And yes, Wikipedia is wonderful :) Abel29a 12:21, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
{ Wilco ;-) unfortunately the copy of Price I checked is not my own so this may take some days :-(. When I do I will also check his take on the "finger four" description(see above). --Sf 23:08, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Bomber and Coastal Command contributions

A thought regarding the word "decimation:" This word means (literally) to kill every tenth one of. In this usage, it appears the condition being described may be more severe—say, closer to destruction, or devastation than decimation. I won't change this term here myself, as I'm not informed on the Battle of Britain, but I thought I'd speak up, as the word is sometimes misused. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fagiolonero (talk • contribs) 07:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC).

Indeed the origin of the word is to kill 10% of a force, but today the word is often uses ( as in this case) to describe the destruction of a large proportion, much more than 10%. (Wiktionary: The destruction of any large proportion, as of people by pestilence or war.) That being said - there were a much higher than 10% causaltiy rate on some of these missions, so maybe destruction or similar is better. Abel29a 10:35, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Misleading

"German strategy was influenced by pre-war theories of strategic bombing, which stressed the weakness of air defence and the effects of terror bombing on public morale."

This is completely false. These seems to be suggesting that the Luftwaffe engaged in the bombing of British citizens intentionally. Although Goering did show an interest in the effects of terror bombing, this doctine was not employed by the Germans first (as the Wikipedia page suggests).

H. W. Koch wrote in "The Strategic Air Offensive against Germany: The Early Phase, May-September 1940" (The Historical Journal Vol. 34, No. 1) That Hitler prohibited attacks on the English people. Residential attacks were to be avoided; thus Fliegerkorps did not fly over South East England when it was cloudy or foggy, etc. Richard Overy is also consistant with this statement. In his book, Battle of Britain he states that the intention of the Germany Air Force was to destroy British ports, oil refinaries and munitions factories. M. Kirby and R. Capey wrote in their article, Area Bombing of Germany in World War II: An Operational Research Perspective (Journal of Operational Research Society, Vol. 48 No. 7) That terror bombing was advocated by Britsh Chief of Air Staff Hugh Trenchard; who actually had a list of targets by late 1939 including residential areas in mainland Germany.

Taybot 17:10, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Completely agree with the above comments; what also needs to be remembered is that the Luftwaffe bomber arm was never intended to operate in a strategic role, as was designed as a purely tactical weapon in support of the Wehrmacht. Harryurz 21:32, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. I'm gonna start reworking this bit now, hopefully you can all check and see if my edits are correct and add some more corrections as needed. Abel29a 12:53, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../b/a/t/Talk%7EBattle_of_Britain_22ec.html"