Talk:Batman: The Animated Series

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Contents

[edit] Merge

An archive of the merge debate for Animated Series Batman has been placed on a subfolder of this page: Talk:Batman: The Animated Series/Animated Series Batman Talk/ ~CS 14:23, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pilot Episode?

Discuss Bruce Timm? -Sparky


Is not "On Leather Wings" the pilot episode? I got that impression from the DVD commentary & special features... -leigh (φθόγγος) 03:32, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)

[1] also implies that it is. I'll change the article to reflect this, and at least mention Timm. -leigh (φθόγγος) 03:35, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)
The distinction is that "On Leather Wings" is the first episode made, but the Catwoman episode the earlier contributor had in mind was the first episode aired. For some reason, the episodes of B:TAS were aired in a completely different order from what they were made (or made in a completely different order from what they were aired). --Paul A 05:54, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I remember there beinga pilot episode, but it was very short though, but it just involved batman catching a crook and then tying him up and Gordon coming on to the roof and telling batman to stop. I was only 4 or 5 at the time, but please tell me if anybody remembers this too, Thank you. 70.247.39.1 21:58, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Thats okay, i found it, they call it the rarely seen pilot episode, so I think we should add this to the episode guide, its called "The Dark Knight's First Night", so I guess its up to you guys to add it to the guide, but i want to hear your responses.70.247.39.1 22:17, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

No, no. "The Dark Knight's First Night" is not the pilot episode. This short video was only to promote BTAS and to show what will be the style of the series and etc. Batman TAS

[edit] Animation style

Why is the change on the animation style not mentioned anywhere?--Fito 04:47, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

That The New Batman Adventures which was a seperate series.

[edit] Merger

Since it is widely accepted (and stated in the article) that The New Batman Adventures is an extension of the original animated series, I recommend that the articles be merged. Lord Bodak 23:22, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

  • Merged--Brown Shoes22 02:36, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
  • I concur. If the merger takes place, however, I reccomend not simply cutting and pasting the old article (as some merges often do) but that time be taken to determine what information should be carried over and what (redundant) information can simply be trashed. ~CS 18:38, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Ok, I was panicking there. I thought it said the opposite, merge into The New Batman Adventures. Breathe....think....yah, merge them. I always thought they were part of the same series anyways. --maclean25 06:32, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
  • I always thought of them as seprate series. Clearly a different focus, different animation styles are in use. Though it has the same cast, and many of the same producers, the two shows are very different in my opinion. Even Warner Brothers accepts this to be the case, hence seperate listings for both shows and saying the DVD set was complete with episode 85 in the statement "THE DARK KNIGHT'S FINAL 28 EPISODES FROM THE EMMY WINNING ANIMATED SERIES" on tbe back of the DVD. The fact that BatmanTAS.com links to but seperates the two series also shows that the official status is that both series are different and seperate. With this being the case it's best to leave this series seperate. --MysteriousMystery 09:38, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Interesting point. However, the DVD release of the episodes past 85, coming in December, is labelled "Batman: The Animated Series Volume Four," and subtitled "From The New Batman Adventures." Lord Bodak 14:37, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
That's true, which clearly indicates that this in fact a seperate series. If it were just the same series under a new name they wouldn't have bothered to mention it (they didn't say "From The Adventures of Batman and Robin" on the episodes with that opening as part of advertising) This clearly indicates that it is not the same series. It's TNBA is an animated series about Batman, but it is not just new episodes of "Batman the Animated Series". --MysteriousMystery 22:25, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Batman: The Animated Series is one of the most perfect cartoon series ever created. The dark, film noir style, the brooding protagonist, the charming side characters and the well-rounded villians all ring true to Bob Kane's original vision, as well as borrowing heavily from Tim Burton's excellent movie incarnations. Meanwhile, The New Batman Adventures fails in a lot of respects to recapture that vision. The animation style is more futuristic then 40s film noir, the villians seem stilted and lose a lot of the duality that make them interesting and Batman himself seems to play a much more minor role in the series. His dark and brooding nature seems muted and even absent at times, and characters like Catwoman suddenly have completely different personalities then they did in TAS. The Adventures of Batman and Robin kept the same mythology, the same artwork, the same characteristizations and the same directing style. Watching them all on DVD, it becomes dificult to tell when the show changed titles. With TNBA, however, the difference is obvious. It slaps you in the face that this is a different show with diffrent art and a completely different direction. Do not merge the two, or you will do quite a disservice to a brilliant show that deserves to stand on its own. ~macbeth

Agree. TNBA is basically the same show, but nowhere near as good. (I did try, thinking that I was being snobbish in my original view) It's not terrible, but if you merge it I think you'll get a lot of "many were disappointed" yotta yotta type edits. Right now the article on it is nice and pleasant because taken on it's own it had its own merits. The weird Wayne wedding and a few others were kind of okay even. It's just that in comparison to this series it looks childish and weak.--T. Anthony 05:54, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Absolutely should not be merged. Fans of the series know that Batman: TAS and TNBA are VERY different. Definitely agree with the above -- there will be a lot of "fans were disappointed" type edits if these are merged.

  • Disagree. It's a different show. A continuation, yes, but do you have one article for all of the Back to the Future movies, even though they are more interconnected than these two series.

-Alex 12.220.157.93 12:19, 2 January 2006 (UTC).

No Merger, completely different species. --ConradKilroy 04:22, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

TNBA was never referred to as "Batman: The Animated Series" when it originally aired. If it is a matter of the two shows being in the same continuity then they may as well add Batman Beyond and Justice League to the page. There already is a page for the whole DC Animated Universe, and I think that is good enough. January 26, 2006

  • Disagree and am against merging. Let it be a continuationSauron 13:05, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No Merge

I don't think there needs to be a merge, they are seperate shows.

They are absolutely and unquestionably the same show. The team that made them considers them the same show. (As per the commentary on the DVDs.) The company that made the episodes considers them the same show. (They released the New Batman Adventures as Batman: TAS Volume 4) It features the same characters in the same situations. The animation style changed; if a band releases an album with music in a slightly different style, they don't become a different band. You may not like them as much, but it doesn't make them a different band. At the same time, I can see value of keeping them two different articles; in my mind there's no question they should be merged, but it's really not that important. :-) Simnel 23:19, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

For up here, again I say no and a merge is not inevitable. I cited IMDB and TV.com for why not. Added to that the show you are speaking of had different characters and apparently started about 2 years after this show ended.--T. Anthony 13:32, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Just as a suggestion -- I think a merge is inevitable, as there really isn't any support for the idea that they're two different shows. The creators consider them one show, as they repeatedly state on commentary tracks. However, it would be MUCH better for one of the ANTI-merge people to do the actual merge; that way, the important differences, things that (for example) I might not notice or might not care about, will get the attention they deserve. Simnel 10:06, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

They are completely different shows. They are only about the same character: Batman. Would you consider merging "Batman: The Animated Series" with "The Batman"?

I'm also anti-merger. The two years separarting them, obvious change in animation style/quality, should be enough. Also, the articles would end up being huge and have to be split into sub cats anyway. Guermantes 06:17, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


I grew up watching this series on FOX (WB bought this series before they aired their version of the series, which rarely took into account this series, and was based too largely upon the movies; to the point where the plot lines, when laid out against each other, made no sense at all), and am HIGHLY against the merging. The writing quality of each series is HIGHLY different; to the point where, as mentioned before, they cannot be set side by side and still be considered the same show. Ras Al Ghul is a prominent example. In the FOX's animated series, he always wanted what was best for his daughter, Talia. To the point where he began to badger Batman because he though him the only suitable husband for her, his only living offspring. But, in the WB's Batman series, Ras Al Ghul goes out of his way to destroy her, and ultimatly kills her. This is NOT the same character transitioning from one series to the next; it is one set of writers developing and creating a character, and another set refusing to do any research upon the character and ultimatly writing things so completely different that it can barely be considered the same character at all! No, in the end, just keep the two different series' as two different articles because, ultimatly, they are two seperate pieces of work, that came out of the minds of two very different sets of creators. Just because the WB had enough money to buy the series from FOX, it does not mean we should destroy every trace of the fact that they were two different things, and not just one WB project with a few years of gap. But, ultimatly, I would like to point out that even imdb.com lists each series as different. And, while imdb has problems with listing of foriegn films, this was hardly foriegn, outside of the animation. This was the series that re-defined everything that Batman was previously though to be. No more was the humerous Adam West, and his bright, kiddie friendly series. No, now we had outselves the Dark Knight (somehting the WB avoids for PC reasons now), and a Batman that has never been paralleled since.

I think you need to get your history straight. WB didn't buy the series off of Fox. It's a WB property that originally ran on FOX. DC is a subsidiary of Time-Warner. The writing and animation teams are the EXACT SAME PEOPLE -- they even laugh about that on one of the commentary tracks, how many people said 'Wow, who are the idiots doing these episodes? We're the SAME IDIOTS!' Ra'as al Ghul DOES change -- it's called character evolution. His daughter betrays him in one episode; in the next, he is fighting against her. For things NOT to have changed between them would have been bad writing.
Like I said, first, the IMDB isn't a canonical source. There's only one canonical source, the creators themselves, who consider it the same series. And, once again, it is the EXACT SAME creative team. And they say it's the same show. Simnel 14:50, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with that guy. In B:TAS ep "Avatar" Ra's Al Ghul tried to kill his daughter. In TNBA ep "The Demon Reborn", he went out of his way to save her. It wasn't until Batman Beyond that he killed her. Bruce W. Timm was the executive producer of B:TAS, TNBA, Batman Beyond, Justice League and JLU. Paul Dini, Dan Riba, Alan Burnette, Glen Murikami and several others have been developing Batman, his world and his characters for 14 years. However, given the change in styles and two-year gap between them, I think B:TAS and TNBA should stay seperate. -- Forester Randlett

Please DON'T MERGE. It is weird, but this is the second time in the same day I agree with Simnel!!--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 04:52, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


I am AGAINST a merger as well, two different shows...continuation in continuity yes. colossus34 14:50, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Batman Adventures being a continuation

Made some edits... removed "confirmed by the fact that the episodes are sometimes listed on unofficial episode guide websites as episodes #86 - #109, while the original "Batman" cartoon is listed as episodes #1 - #85." The author gives the opinion of the ORIGINAL CREATOR... this hardly needs confirmation from 'unofficial websites'. Similarly, "On the official Batman: The Animated Series site, however, the two series are on separate pages. " is just silly; it's the Batman: TAS site, right? Who cares what pages they are? Also tried to take some of the fan criticism out of the paragraph. Virtually EVERY comic book article on this site immediately follows up ANY kind of change with 'And the fans hated it.' Yes. We all know that the majority of comics fans hate every change. It's not really relevant. Simnel 09:52, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

It is a continuation, but for all intents and purposes it is also a separate show. TV.com lists the Lion and the Unicorn as Batman: The Animated Series last episode. IMDB agrees that the show ended in 1995. Added to that I am not a comics reader, certainly not a comics fan. I'm not even a Batman fan as a rule. I am however someone who did however like this particular Batman related show. I didn't like the New Batman Adventures. The look, characterization, and storylines were different enough to be different shows. And there's precedent for a continuation being seen as a separate show, see M*A*S*H (TV series) and AfterMASH for example.--T. Anthony 13:24, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Here's the thing. TVTome is not a canonical source. IMDB is not a canonical sorce. Bruce Timm and Paul Dini ARE canonical sources. Can you provide some primary source suggesting that they are different series? If not, can you give me a set of criteria that you think makes them a separate series? Simnel 16:11, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Why aren't they valid sources? They are used as sources in many TV or film related articles. Are you suggesting from now on we only use primary sources on things? Has this been the rule in the past? Anyway sure Bruce Timm was very positive on the new show and I guess preferred it while seeing them both as the same show. That doesn't mean they are the same show though, not by the standards of TV or viewers. They are listed as separate shows in two valid sources, face it or don't.--T. Anthony 21:12, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Didn't say they weren't valid. Said they weren't canonical. I'm not sure why you're preferring "Some internet site" over "The guys who made the show"; that's my essential problem. IMDB is a fine place to go... when you don't have anything better. We've got something better. Either way... you said "Not by the standards of TV or viewers." Okay, let's work with that -- explain those standards to me, and explain why according to those standards they're different shows, and we can lay this baby to rest. Simnel 23:17, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Well in TV terms a show with a new name, different characters, and a different look(that comes out two years after a show ended) is commonly seen to be a new show. In fact I'm having trouble thinking of an example where this is not the case. What creators say is interesting, but they can declare all kinds of things depending on their needs or intents. For example Philip José Farmer translated a novel from French, but the translation is so different most concede it is essentially his book and not the same book. Likely he argued otherwise. In cases of dispute I guess I'd just go for maintaining the status que. However I admittedly don't care that much about this so if you really want to merge them so bad then do so. However if you do so try to separate the two in some fashion because it would be wrong to indicate that that show is simply the later seasons of this one as I think even they agree. They even refer to it as "new" in title and in interviews.--T. Anthony 00:17, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
It's clearly a DIFFERENT show. Warner Brothers has two official websites, one for Batman the Animated Series, a seperate page for The New Batman Adventures. Is it a continuation absolutely, is it the same series, no if it were they would both be merged into one site. This is why these articles should not be merged as well, they're clearly different series.MysteriousMystery13:45, 20, January 2006.
I agree. I get the sense a merger is not inevitable at all and is likely not going to happen at all. Therefore I've been trying to take out actors who were never in this show, but instead were only in The New Batman Adventures. I kept voice actors from Batman: Mask of the Phantasm however because that film came out when this series did and is closely linked to it.--T. Anthony 04:13, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
I wandered over to peek at the page from my usual haunts, and I noticed the merger discussion. I vote that they remain seperate. Over on the Justice League side of things, we enjoy maintaining a seperate page for Justice League and Justice League Unlimited. I'd say that the JL "series" are even closer than the Batman series. (There was no drastic redesign of nearly all the characters for example.) I think TNBA is worthy of its own page. Everything's tied together by the DC animated universe anyway.--Gillespee 16:55, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Another problem is that I see no way to merge the two without making an article that would get a length warning. Both articles are quite substantial on their own terms. That they are related is already kind of dealt with in both articles without the merger. If it's really desired perhaps a page on Batman in animation in general can be made with a small section on Bruce Timm's and Paul Dini's work that can lump them together if need be.--T. Anthony 05:58, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Guests

I took out some guests that were only on TNBA, but added some memorable guest appearance from this series. In cases like Bess Armstrong, Matt Frewer, and Kimmy Robertson the memorableness is that they were leading guests or the leadung guest in the episode. In cases like Grant Shaud and Loretta Swit they were prominent as guests, but maybe as much prominent for being fairly well-known through their successful TV series days. Then there's like Patrick Leahy where him being known is what makes it memorable. Brad Garrett's role as Goliath I thought was pretty important to that ep, but he's also somewhat known. Not sure where he'd be placed then.--T. Anthony 05:03, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I put a few TNBA names back as some things are unresolved. Only the ones who are somewhat noteworthy though and have Wikipedia articles.--T. Anthony 05:59, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The shadow

Clipped this from the Gray Ghost paragraph:

(although the real reason for the creation was that the episode was an adaptation of an issue that featured The Shadow, which when it was first published was owned by DC when the show was made DC comics didn't have the rights to The SHadow anymore so the Gray Ghost was created to fill in)

If the original author can substantiate that and clean the text up a little bit, we can add it back in, it's a nice piece of trivia. Simnel 02:40, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Old Releases

Is the recent additon of a very long, comprehensive list of largely obselete VHS and DVD releases necessary? The additional lists seem superfluous -- especially when we eliminated similar lists pretaining to the final DVD sets a only a few months ago. ~CS 22:01, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

The anonymous user who added these lists has not been back to respond. If no one objects, I'm going to expunge this section in the next few days. It repeats information already provided, and makes the article way to long. I wouldn't object to a shorter section that summerizes the VHS releases, but as it stands, the section is ungainly. ~CS 20:40, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Episode Articles

I'm just making an announcement that i'm making all season 1 episodes into articles (aside from on leather wings, which is already an article. they're just basic articles, i'd appreciate help expanding them. i'll do the other season's when the first are all finished. Thanks.

Hi Riddler, in the future would you mind signing your posts on talk pages with four tidles [~] ? This signs your name and puts a time stamp on your post so it is quick and easy to follow the conversation.
To the topic at hand: Do you think every episode needs its own article, or only some of the most notable ones? I'd hate to see you put a lot of work into creating a large number of articles, only to have them all up for deletion shortly thereafter. A better approach might be to start making in-depth articles for the most notable episodes, and moving on from there. ~CS 03:14, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
in a way, i did that, i did a full article for Almost Got 'Im, i made several other small ones. They're real easy to make. I just noticed that every Family Guy episode has an article, so i knew it was possible. why would it be deleted?
My concern is that if a large number of stubs suddenly appear, they will be put up for deletion because of the lack of notability of the articles. On the other hand, if a series of high-quality articles on each episode appear over time, I doubt anyone would object. I wasn't familiar with the Family Guy articles. ~CS 04:18, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Memorable Episodes - Shadow of the Bat?

Should "Shadow of the Bat" be listed as memorable episode? All the episodes on the list are widely regarded as being excellent episodes, except for maybe "Shadow of the Bat". I don't usually see that episode on top ten lists, nor do I think it is a truly exceptional episode (though it is pretty good). Wouldn't there be other episodes that would be more deserving to mention? The two-parter "Feat of Clay", I think, is considerablly better than Shadow of the Bat. Feat of Clay is also an episode that I notice is frequentlly listed as a top episode, so obviouslly there's quite a few people who would agree with me.

Does anyone else support this change? (Adding Feat of Clay, and possibly removing Shadow of the Bat, to this section?)

I understand the challege here: part of the difficulty is that there are just so many excellent episodes for this series...

Drdestiny77 10:09, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Major Changes people!

Check this out: Batman (animated)

This article is lacking of several stuff. For starters every article about a tv series talk about the characters and the events. We have the episodes, but I'm talking overall events, what's Batman: The Animated Series about. This article, as it is right now, is more about production deatails, how this series was innovative and how it afected comics, but it lacks of the basics. I also read the Paul Dini/Chip Kido book. Think about it as if you were both new to Batman and new to the animated series. It's a shame there was no bio of the animated version of Batman until now!! We are missing the very basics, people!!! --T-man, the wise 23:45, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I've already set the sections in a logical order:

  • Overview (since this section is kinda like a review, maybe this should be right before the cast as [www.allmovie.com] does.
  • Characters. (as I said, we have to explain what this series is about before giving production details)
  • Tools (they're kinda like characters)
  • Episodes (ok, knowing the players, we can now explain what happens during the series)
  • Cast (the stars impersonating the characters?
  • Broadcast (details about channels that broadcasted the series until it got syndicated)
  • DVD releases (how can one get the series noe)
  • Influence (kinda like the epilogue, after knowing all about the series we get to konow what has it don to the media)
  • In other media.

There is still to much work to do since I'm leaving new sections in a "stub" status, as well as the Batman (animated) subarticle with the bio of animated batman.--T-man, the wise 00:29, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edits

In line with what User: T-man has done, I've added a few quick capsule descriptions of the main characters, villains, and some other significant characters of note, and tidied up some of the sections where they were a bit verbose or confusing. In order to shorten down the article somewhat, I've also moved the long list of episodes to it's own article with a link provided. Any comments are gladly received.--Joseph Q Publique 05:30, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I'm not a fan of the capsule description since there is already full bios in each character's article, but maybe a very short one would be ok. Notice there is no list of characters appearing on BTAS as there is a List of character appearin on JLU. Mi goal is to match formats.--T-man, the wise 04:18, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, wouldn't be nice to have that bigass cast list on a subarticle?--T-man, the wise 04:21, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I'm 65% sure, Animated Series Batman could end up merged, if thery are going to put that material here, I think some editors sould go over there and shape it, rewrite, erease, change words, cut, paste and improve it before get mixed with an older article like this. I mean, right now, that article totally lack of this one's quality. --T-man, the wise 21:00, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Animated Series Batman (character) sandbox

Batman: The Animated Series/Animated Series Batman (character)

During the creation of of that "late" article I always stated that it was a draft or unproject. It took weeks until Bennon cleverly figured out what I was trying to do was a sandbox (which I didn't know how to do until now). Now everyone can edit it with no time pressure and talk about what to do with the info when i's finally finished. I coul'd have created the sandbox in my own talk page, but I don't want anyone to assume I "OWN" the project. Feel free to erase, add and source stuff to improve it.--T-man, the wise 22:34, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why the best? (weasel warning)

I placed the weasel words template at the top because of the second sentence:

"It is widely regarded by fans as the most iconic modern representation of the Batman character and mythology, and also as the best animated series based on a comic book."

Though it says that it's the opinion of most fans I'm not quite sure if that's proper NPV, and though I haven't checked the entire article, other instances of uncredited opinion could be there. Even if this is indeed the best Batman animated adaptation, Batman fans are surely more prone to considering a proper Batman adaptation better then a proper spider-man adaptation (and that in itself is not quite neutral).

Since I'm not sure, I didn't immediatly remove it, someone more experienced might want to check it out.

--Fmafra 18:54, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Don't exagerate, there is indeed a [citation needed], but some magazines have called it that. Actually I think in an all time animation list came out as second after the Simpsons. We only need the citation, but I'm a 100 sure about this.--T-man, the wise 20:09, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

A list of citations could be produced for this statement (if someone felt it worthwhile to research this). It is true that, in general, this series is that highly regarded.

Drdestiny77 09:29, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

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