Talk:Basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore

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This page needs to be moved to the more appropriate title "Saint Mary Major Basilica." "Saint Mary Major" is an incomplete reference. "Major Basilica" are inseparable words as they reference a specific type of basilica. --Gerald Farinas 15:34, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Can someone point me to any recent material which uses the "Mary Major" anglicization, rather than Maria Maggiore? -- Hotlorp 22:35, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I had similar thoughts earlier on. I thought it was just me so I just kept my mouth shut. --Gerald Farinas 00:31, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Agreed - I've never seen it called "Mary Major", always Santa Maria Maggiore, although a Google search inevitably finds some links. Compare, for example, San Pietro in Vincoli. -- ALoan (Talk) 10:17, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The other articles on Italian basilicas use their proper Italian names because they are known by their Italian names, even by English-speaking people: Basilica Palladiana, Basilica della Santissima Annunziata di Firenze, Basilica di San Lorenzo di Firenze, Basilica di San Miniato al Monte, Basilica di San Zanipolo, Basilica di Santa Croce di Firenze, Basilica di Santa Maria Gloriosa dei Frari, Basilica di Santa Maria Novella, Basilica di Santa Maria della Salute. That establishes precedence to move this article to the proper title, "Basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore" with a redirect from its more uncommonly used English translation. --Gerald Farinas 12:39, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The Vatican Information Service and the other news services of the Holy See refer to it is the Basilica of Saint Mary Major in all English correspondence. --Mm35173 14:55, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

I am changing the caption on the photograph. It currently reads "...place of worship dedicated to the Blessed Virgin Mary," which leaves a dangerous grammatical ambiguity, considering that certain non-litugical Christians have the misconception that Catholics, Anglicans and Orthodox "worship Mary". --Mm35173 14:55, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Liberian Basilica 2 Architecture 3 Title 4 Mosaics 5 Name

[edit] Liberian Basilica

When was the Liberian Basilica rededicated to the BVM? The article is mute on this point. --13:49, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

According to the legend, Liberius himself dedicated it to the Virgin to celebrate the apparition. Sixtus III rebuilt it in 432 to celebrate the declaration of the Theotokos by the Council of Ephesus, so it was dedicated to Mary at least from that time on. Rwflammang 16:21, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Architecture

Article refers to a column of an up-ended canon erected by Pope Clement XIII immediately after the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre of Protestants. However, Pope Clement did not become Pope until 1592. The massacre occurred in 1572, four months after Pope Gregory XIII took office. The Pope at the time of the massacre was Pope Gregory XIII and he was known to have celebrated the massacre as evidenced by the medals he had struck commemorating the occasion. I recommend that Pope Clement XIII be changed to Pope Gregory XIII.

[edit] Title

I am one of those who think english-users should be able to look up articles without being forced to learn other languages in the process. I know english-users have a poor track record of being multilingual, but this is not way to solve that problem.

I have no clue how you intend to scope the usage of one version versus the other. A mere google search shows a dispaging difference in favor of the English version (remember to set to search webpages only in English on your preferences). If there is some other way, plz enlighten me. As for the Vatican using the Italian version, infallibility applies to faith and morals, not the English language, and if you left that up to those Italian editors there, we would all be speaking Italian. The Jackal God 21:23, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Im not sure if this is a voting point or not. I vote keeping the main article under Santa Maria Maggiore. If someone wants to change it to just "Santa Maria Maggiore" or Basilica of .. that would also be fine. I think Mary Major just doesn't ring true, Mary Major sounds like an Hollywood screen name. I think we should respect names whenever possible. The same applies for Charlie Borromeo (Carlo Borromeo), and some other. My 2 cents. CARAVAGGISTI 22:43, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Is the issue over titling the article Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore? That would be fine, except that it's already redirected here, so there's no problem for users. Or is this about retitling the article to Basilica of Big Holy Mary? --Wetman 23:14, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

The issue is that the basilica is known as St Mary Major's or the Basilica of St Mary Major. If it affects someone's uncultured sensibilities (or unfamiliar with things Catholic), so be it; that doesn't change what it's known as in English. One studied in Latin and other things humanistic would not be so bothered by "Major" following a word. Likewise, whether Canis Major sounds like a fat stogie is irrelevant to that astronomical designation. Viva Wyclif, Vatican II, render it English. The Jackal God 23:28, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Nonsense - is always called Sta Maria Maggiore in English. Johnbod 13:49, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mosaics

The article badly needs a lot more information on this extremely famous and important cycle, instead of the vague mention currently here. Johnbod 13:51, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name

For ye that like to make broad pronouncements like "nonsense - is always called..." can you please explain to us plebs how you arrive to such conclusions, inspite of the fact that a google search states otherwise (2.5 hits for <<saint mary major's -"santa maria maggiore">>) as well as the personal experience of those who have heard it so phrased in english on both sides of the Atlantic, including in Rome when speaking English. The curiousity compels me, and i never got an answer from Gerald Farinas who is another big fan of italian usage. The Jackal God 17:49, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Given the varieties of Saint, St, S. etc in both languages, this needs to be excluded from the search terms. Then the Ghits are:

• "mary major" vs "maria maggiore"

• Web (English Lang): 90,300 vs 290,0000
• Scholar: 134 vs 1,590
• Books: 677 vs 1,414

In addition, on a quick look, more of the maria maggiore's are about the church in Rome, rather than the feast day, churches in England etc, and indeed women called Mary Major.

I am a great supporter of English names, where they are the commonest name used in English (see Talk:Palazzo del Te), but not here. Johnbod 18:04, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

ok, i was just wondering how you arrived to the conclusion that it was "nonsense" and "always" used. for what it's worth, "maria maggiore" -di gets a third of the results "maria maggiore." anyways, are these google search result comparisons your method? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by The Jackal God (talk • contribs) 23:15, 9 March 2007 (UTC).

nonsense referred to your categorical statements; always is obviously an exaggeration, although not I think for art history. Actually adding -di only drops it from 291k to 238k if you were searching English language sites only, and most of the di's seem to be in English.

The online free Britannica extract goes with Maria Maggiore, without mentioning the alternative. Johnbod 03:13, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

hmm. i don't know. My google search without the "di" revealed 107,000. As for website usage, the websites of the episcopal conferences of US and England&Wales use Mary Major:Maria Maggiore 10:2 and 7:1 respectively. Cardinal Law's bio page on the Vatican website uses Mary Major. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by The Jackal God (talk • contribs) 15:29, 10 March 2007 (UTC).

Mary Major is the Church translation of the feast day etc. Maria Maggiore is used virtually exclusively by art historians, who I think clearly have more influence on everyone else, through guide books etc. Johnbod 17:40, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

who is making categorical statements now? First of all, if you perused those websites i mentioned, you would have seen that they refer to the Basilica, not a feast day. It's not clear to me that art historians have more influence, at least not in this sphere. It's one thing to use the word Italian word "baldecchino" in place of its English counterpart (which i did not know existed until a few days ago), but let's ponder whether the Basilicas don't fall into 'technical jargon of art history.' The Jackal God 20:11, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I meant that Mary Major is obviously the official Church version, so used in various contexts. As to the relative degrees of influence, and technical jargon, I think the ghits tell the story. Many of the mary major ghits are not concerned with the basilica, as noted above. I'm not sure where you are going with this; do you really think a vote to move the page would succeed, given all the above? Apart from anything else, St Mary Major sounds odd grammatically in English, however venerable the translation. Johnbod 20:34, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

i think we should look into this more.

here are the ghits for Maria Maggiore

Results 1 - 10 of about 109,000 English pages for

"maria maggiore" -di

here are the ghits for Mary Major

Results 1 - 10 of about 66,600 English pages for

"Mary Major" -tv -"devon. england"

which leaves us with a ratio of ~2:3. You say the italian renditon is preferred term in art history; while the English-speaking bishop's conferences overwhelming use the English version, which may or may not be indicative of English-speakers in that context. Moreover, given those two bodies of users, are ghits describe comparative sizes accurately. my suspicion is art history would be over-represented relative to Church/religious community usage viz-a-viz ghits. there's no need to rush a vote at this point. let's find additional ways of gauging usage. The Jackal God 10:21, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmm - Basilica + "Mary Major" in English = 49,200 [1]

Basilica + "Maria Maggiore" in English = 154k hits [2]. Why exclude "di" ? Plenty of English sites, like this one, use a full Italian name, and plenty more have a "di" from some street or church nearby in the text: " At Vasari's time S. Maria Maggiore was almost isolated among large villas chiefly Pope Sixtus V's Villa di Termini." - and so on. You are excluding these. Personally I would have gone, like the Vatican, with "Basilica of ...", and would support this, if you feel the change worth pushing for. Johnbod 15:50, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

i am all about going w/ the Vatican. see the Holy See's homepage in English.

http://www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm

"Basicila Saint Mary Major"

I follow the link with trepidation. Oh, the Latin bias! Sure, French and Spanish have the title translated, but not English or German.

Gli italiani consideranno brutti i nostri linguaggi germanici. non e justo. parlo con il papa. cierto che il papa sia simpatico. remediamo quest' errore subito.

I'm young. I'll wait. Couple more non-Italian pontiffs, the title will be in English on the Vatican website.
The Jackal God 18:58, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

again, more info

PATRIARCHAL BASILICAS

Basilica of Saint Peter ...

Basilica of Saint John Lateran ...

Basilica of Saint Mary Major ...

Basilica of Saint Paul Outside the Walls ...
http://www.vatican.va/faq/index_en.htm The Jackal God 19:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)