Talk:Basic process
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Need to add the elements of Boolean logic
As you edit articles linked from here, try to express the matter as the general case as opposed to a specific application and add a link back to basic process. User:Fredbauder
Wow, this, alongside Process, is so broad as to be surreal! I don't suppose Fredbauder or someone else could clarify what sort of theoretical perspective this is meant to embody? Is there some academic/philosophical school represented here, or is this Fredbauder's original synthesis? At this point, it looks like practically anything could qualify as a "basic process". Unless someone can place this in some kind of context, I'd say that basic process and the pages linked off of it look more like an experimental new kind of dictionary than anything else. While this effort looks interesting, it does not seem in the spirit of an encyclopedia, and I'm not sure wikipedia is the correct medium with which to pursue it. -- Ryguasu
Yes, I'm afraid this is to an extent, perhaps wholely, original work. I don't think just anything could qualify as a basic process. Essentially it is work on a basic pattern language. Fredbauder 14:53 Oct 30, 2002 (UTC)
Wikipedia is (unfortunately?) not the place to create new theories and concepts, things should be published other places and be acknowledged before they find their place in an encyclopedia. Fredbauder, please try to link your stuff with some existing school of thought, for example patterns in architecture and design patterns in software engineering. --Guppie
Alternatively, there seem to be other forums more conducive to experimentation, including meta.wikipedia and everything2. Is there some reason you prefer wikipedia to these other forums, Fredbauder? Granted, switching from one to another is a pain. But is wikipedia somehow a superior medium? --Ryguasu
I ran across the notion of a pattern language in this book:
- Pattern Language Towns, Buildings, Construction, Christopher Alexander, Oxford University Press, 1997, hardcover, 1216 pages, ISBN 0195019199
Probably not further reading for the article however as it is limited to architecture. Fredbauder 13:00 Oct 31, 2002 (UTC)
-Alexander's books are not only about buildings, it is truly an example of a pattern language (see design pattern). His books "A Timeless way of building" (1979) and "Pattern language..." have inspired pattern thinking in other fields as well, for example in software engineering. --Guppie
Is this article really suitable for Wikipedia?
I've gone back and forth on this. Obviously it is a vulnerable article as the term basic process is not in general use; however, in scientific, technical and engineering literature information has been developed of the processes which underlie phenomena and which "make things work". Collected, that information is established knowledge. I'm in it for the fun of attacking a difficult and interesting question, but eventually I think a useful and interesting article will result. Fred Bauder 11:09 Nov 5, 2002 (UTC)
Fred, it's good that you're having fun with this, but it is most certainly your original research, and original research has no place in Wikipedia. Develop it somewhere else, write a book or article about your ideas, but do not add them to Wikipedia until they are well received.
- in scientific, technical and engineering literature information has been developed of the processes which underlie phenomena and which "make things work". Collected, that information is established knowledge.
In other words, many people have written about many things, and now you want to put everything together and give it structure and a unified presentation. A laudable and grand project, other people have tried it before; most definitely original research.
I vote for deletion. AxelBoldt 22:04 Nov 26, 2002 (UTC)
I tend to agree with Axel, original research, even when it tries to find broader concepts for existing ones, is best done elsewhere. But nobody would have a problem if you moved this page to meta.wikipedia.org. (Interestingly, when we come across these border cases, we often think about Wikipedia spin off projects that could be used to store that type of knowledge -- for dictionary terms, a "Wiktionary" is being planned, for source material, we're thinking about "Project Sourceberg" (a terrible name, IMHO), perhaps we need something for original research as well -- a kind of explorepedia ;-) --Eloquence
I have blanked this page and copied the original article over to meta; see m:Basic processes. The reasons for doing so are basically given above; such original work, at least before gaining legitimacy through, say, being published in a book or on a widely popular web site, does not belong in an encyclopedia. (Even when work has gained legitimacy in this manner, it seems best for someone other than the original author to write the wikipedia article.)
I think Fred has had enough time to counter this argument, and has not done so effectively. He has mentioned Christopher Alexander, John Searle, and howstuffworks.com, but it appears, at least on a superficial glance, that none of these sources use the term "basic process" in the way he does. A connection has been made to design patterns, but what I know of that concept (from software engineering) suggests that it, too, is quite different from a "basic process". The term "pattern language" has been mentioned, but it has not been explained what that means, or how it is different from design patterns.
Note that no one has seriously argued that, if the work is as original as claimed, it really does belong in an encyclopedia.
I hope this does not seem overly hostile. I wish the basic processes essay the best as it continues its life on meta, and I hope Fred will contribute to the articles on Alexander, Searle, design patterns, etc.. If one of the above authors does use the term "basic process" in a technical way, I would also invite Fred to replace this article with an explanation of that technical concept.
--Ryguasu 19:54 Dec 9, 2002 (UTC)
Basic processes or logical homologies as they were termed by Ludwig von Bertalanffy in General System Theory are unifying principles which operate in many different systemic contexts. For example, feedback, the principle which figures prominantly in the science of cybernetics. Natural and industrial processes utilize basic processes such as feedback. Fred Bauder 12:50 Jan 31, 2003 (UTC)
[edit] Reference
- von Bertalanffy, Ludwig, General System Theory, George Braziller, New York, 1968, pages 84,85 Fred Bauder 12:50 Jan 31, 2003 (UTC)
