Wikipedia:Barnstar and award proposals/Proposed Changes

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[edit] Wikipedia:Wikihalo

Can we please redefine the process by which this award is given out? --evrik (talk) 18:55, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

  • I think it needs to be changed to simple one week approval voting. We should speedy all the "unsuccessful" candidacies and begin again, and delete all the other pages that add any extra bureaucracy. The whole point of the Wikihalo is that it is a community award, so it only seems fair that the community gets to express their opinion. As you have rightly pointed out though, it is embarassing for those who failed, and thus these pages should be eradicated. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 18:59, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
    • I'm going to leave the construction tag up for right now until we work this out. --evrik (talk) 19:10, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I don't think creating separate pages for each nominee is a wise idea. Maybe one nomination page and then a set of archive pages? Thoughts? --evrik (talk) 20:53, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Disagree. RfA methods are the best way to go IMO. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 21:45, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Why don't we focus on the criteria for a moment ... Length of service ... number of edits? --evrik (talk) 21:48, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Do we need any? Is a wikihalo a lifetime achivement award, or a "Hey, you're awesome! Thanks for that thing you did!" award? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 14:31, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Originally, there was a threshold of eligibility. It was meant for long-time contributors. Also, if this award is going to have a nomination procedure ... we should archive the nominations somewhere ... and have a minimal amount of votes required. --evrik (talk) 18:38, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
The nominations are archived, under the name of the nominee. Shall we say five votes? Five votes and seven days. I've finished my revamp of the award, what do you reckon? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 21:56, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I would say, 10,000 edits, more than a year editing on the en.wiki and they receive at least 15 votes. --evrik (talk) 22:16, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Right, well that's nonsense, really, isn't it? There's only 1000 people on all of Wikipedia who have more than 10,000 edits, and the community both knows and ackowledges them in various ways. Also, about three people a month look at WP:HALO - we needs to set our voting threshold low enough until more people start voting there. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 22:41, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Well ... do you have an alternate standard? Something between the high bar I set and what it is now? Making it hard to get isn't the worst thing ... --evrik (talk) 22:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I say use the RfA standards: at least a thousand edits and four months on the wiki. I agree it needs to be a tough award, but no-one has heard of the Wikihalo, much less voted on it. We need to set the bar low to get the nominations trickling in and then slowly raise it (to about 5000 edits). Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 22:56, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Let me think about this overnight. --evrik (talk) 23:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, once we've agreed, I'll announce it on the community portal and perhaps ask the signpost to cover it. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 17:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
  • well, I think that the standard for rfa is too low ... and not all admins should be admins ... can we agree on 5000 edits and four months? --evrik (talk) 21:20, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree on 5000 eventually, but until the project has been more popularised, there seems little point in raising it that far. Shall we say 2000 edits and raise it a thousand every two months or something? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 23:00, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I'm getting ready to go afk. I want to resist raising the bar every two months or so ... it really makes it seem arbitrary. We shoudl just agree on a standard. Any interest in a poll? --evrik (talk) 23:05, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
If you really want to hold one. I just don't see where we can put it where anyone would actually care. It's just you and me discussing this, remember. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 23:06, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
...Um, why don't we just compromise? I want a thousand, you want 5000, I offered you 2, why go off on random generators? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 23:21, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Actually, I wanted 10,000 and a year. So, if you want to compromise we should split the difference ... that would be 5500 edits and 8 months. --evrik (talk) 16:16, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
That's ridiculous. Are you seriously against this award so much you would raise the barrier so high no-one would get one? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 16:36, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

If you look at the history of the award, you'll see that I defended it when it was up for deletion under and MFD - but I've always had problems with the way that it is administered. 1,000 is too low, 10,000 may be too high. I have less of a problem with the time element because it takes time to make all those edits. --evrik (talk) 16:54, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, one thousand may be too low. Will you be happy with 2500? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 19:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I like 10,000, but would be willing to compromise at 5,000. --evrik (talk) 19:43, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
No. I will go find some more people and take a straw poll on it. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 19:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
  • ... and? --evrik (talk) 23:07, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I think that something closer to thirty hundred would be best... I mean evrik, I really respect you as an editor and everything - but really setting the bar that high would be insane - especially since a lot of times the number of edits someone has made is not the best indication for the cumulative effect of their contribution. This award is meant to make people feel good about themselves - and it rewards quality contributions. If a person with 3000 great edits is nominated - I think they should seriously be considered for the award (and no one start bringing in the slippery slope here- thirty hundred edits is still a lot of edits).Daniel()Folsom |\T/|\C/|\U/|(Can you help me with my signature?) 03:12, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Instead of edits what about time? This should be an exclusive award. --South Philly 14:06, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I agree with what evrik is trying to say, in that this award should be hard to get, to make it more prominent and exclusive. The point i think he is trying to make is that if you have an award that has to be voted on and nominations are required, it should be reserved for really excellent contributors, not just any old Joe Bloggs with 2,000 edits. I agree it should be something special, however maybe 10,000 is a tad high. Smomo 21:56, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
  • 2000 mainspace edits? There aren't many "Joe Bloggs" with 2000 mainspace edits. Daniel()Folsom |\T/|\C/|\U/|(Can you help me with my signature?) 00:01, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Look at yourself. You must be approaching something around 2000 edits. Would you say you deserve this Wiki Halo award? Smomo 18:23, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
      • I'm nowhere near 2000 - I'm not even at 500!! (wait, again, are you talking about mainspace edits or regular edits?)Daniel()Folsom |\T/|\C/|\U/|(Can you help me with my signature?) 21:37, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
        • I just looked at your contributions page, set it to 500, and saw how many pages that went up to. To be fair, I imagine that includes non-article space as well, so if edits counts as only article edits, yes, you're probably right. :) Smomo 22:08, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Ok, so now I asume we're talking about non-mainspace edits. In that case - how's 4000 (using certain wiki counters - we can subtract the userpage edits - thus the only things counted will be:
      1. Article edits
      2. Article talk edits - that way we can reward users for their regular edits and contributions to the community (through talk pages))Daniel()Folsom |\T/|\C/|\U/|(Can you help me with my signature?) 22:40, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
  • My two cents: I like the current nomination process, although if someone is thought of well enough that someone else wants to nominate for a Wikihalo, then it should be done, except for any really major disagreements - like wait a week for major objections - and if none, then support. What you're talking about changing it to sounds just like the criteria for Wikipedia:Service awards, and so this award would be nothing special at that point. Cricket02 04:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Surreal sidebar on "criteria"

FWIW, I realized something tonight. I was just awarded a Wikihalo. No, you didn't miss it; I was never nominated. Someone just awarded it to me. So I checked out the image page. Seems LOTS of people have been just giving this out. I am very amused by the surreal and anarchistic spirit of Wikipedians in this instance. However, I still have to decide whether to display the one I was given. Perhaps I need a new section for "illegal awards" ;-) - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 05:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

P.S. As I look at how long the list of actual recipients is, as opposed to the official recipients, and the low number of participants in this discussion, I'm thinking we already have a clear consensus here as to how this should be awarded, and by who. Then again, we could do a clever image switch and declare all the "illegal" recipients to be outlaws, and we could propose it be renamed The Outlaw Award ;-D - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 05:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC

P.P.S. !Recount. It seems the award image is also being used in an "I Assume Good Faith" userbox. It's hard to tell how many of the links on that page are from that use, but I would cautiously assume a good number, possibly most of them. However, the text here does not mention the award needing community approval of any sort. So unless someone clicks through on the link in the header, they can't be blamed for not knowing. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 05:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Working Man's Barnstar: Gender and Class

Why is this called "The Working Man's Barnstar? Surely a gender-neutral title would be a simple and less anachronistic choice. I would suggest that the name of this award would be far less shrill to non-patriarchal ears if it were updated to "The Worker's Barnstar" or "The Labourer's Barnstar" or something along those lines. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.25.152.165 (talk • contribs) 13:58, 6 July 2006.

  • I definitely agree with you on that. There are lots of women working on Wikipedia as well, and I do a lot of spelling/grammar corrections--hard work for the nit-picker, and I don't want to be called a working MAN, because I'm not a man!--Snowgrouse 18:50, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Good question. Take it up on Wikipedia:Barnstar_and_award_proposals. --evrik 13:08, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
  • While this is at least 100 years old, Man doesn't always refer to males, it can refer to humanity in general. -- febtalk 20:17, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
    • I think it is more of an expression. The working person doesnt sound very good does it. thuglas T|C 04:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
      • How you think it sounds? That's hardly objective. Cheeser1 00:21, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Look in the Proposal Archives. this was discussed last year at great length. -_evrik (talk) 04:42, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
  • This discussion belongs here:Wikipedia:Barnstar and award proposals/Proposed Changes

--evrik (talk) 05:39, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Support change - "Worker's Barnstar" or "Working Wikipedian's Barnstar" would be fine. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 21:22, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose per previous discussion.--South Philly 14:28, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Support. I read in the link provided by South Philly that this issue never reached consensus, and if women feel excluded (as it seems is the case), then a rename is in order. How about 'Hard Working Wikipedian'? Raystorm 17:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose - I am a woman, and I do not feel excluded in the least. Man here is clearly meant to be inclusive of all mankind. I see no problem in it's continuance. Working Wikipedian just sounds stupid. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 19:37, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Support - Perhaps it could be called the Diligent Wikipedian barnstar? I hardly think that working on Wiki constitues "hard work", and its kind of ridiculous to compare a diligent wikipedia to someone who mops floors or digs ditches for a living. Asarelah 19:41, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I assure you that a day of harmonising hundreds of references, or writing an FA is equal to digging a ditch or mopping a floor. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 23:53, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose on the grounds that a 'working man' is a common phrase referring to 'man: the race' rather than man the gender. Smomo 00:51, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Support: I support the creation of the Working Woman's barnstar. There's nothing wrong with having 3 barnstars. USe whichever one you like. --Matt57 01:25, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually, it'll work out as more than that, we'll need a Working Man's Barnstar, Working Woman's Barnstar, Working Third gender's Barnstar, Working Womyn's Barnstar, Working Genderqueer's Barnstar, Working Genderfuck's Barnstar Working Transexual's Barnstar, Working Intersex individual's Barnstar, and Working Boi's Barnstar. Oh, and Working Person Who Does Not Have Their Gender Identity Plastered On Their Userpage's Barnstar. Really, when you start trying to divide Barnstars by personal identity, it's never gonna work. Stick with the all-inclusive Man, or create all ten Barnstars. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 02:10, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Why the sarcasm? If there are women that do not feel included by 'Man', use a gender neutral barnstar. How hard would that be, to change a line? At least 4 women have participated in this discussion as far as I can ascertain, and three have supported the change. That's something to think about. Maybe we should ask other women, get a more broad idea of what the women in wikipedia feel about the name. Raystorm 15:51, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm not being sarcastic. Working Man is gender neutral, Man refers to all mankind. If we start creating new barnstars on the basis on personality rather than edits, chaos will ensue, as I've pointed out above. As I said, I do not feel excluded by the barnstar, because I know the etymology of the word and am not offended by it. If we need to, link the Man in the title to ensure that everyone else knows it too. The whole point of the Barnstar seems to be that it's some kind of play on Working Man, or the working class. Changing it to Working Wikipedian for the sake of political correctness ruins the whole thing. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 16:06, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't think the point would be lost if we used, for example, the Working Wikipedia barnstar. If the play on words is so important, a link could always be included I guess. The point is all about being a hard working wikipedian, right? ;-) Then why not change a simple word to be (yes, I'm not afraid to say it) politically correct? As someone famous said once, 'It's not about mankind, it's about humankind'. I've posted a message at the VP and WP:GS to ask for their input. Cheers Raystorm 16:18, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Dev920 is right, and the guidelines do explicitly say the following:
“ Barnstars should be general and broad in their scope. ”

Having different Barnstar's is just finicky and annoying. Smomo 12:07, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Oppose per Dev920's rationale. - Anas talk? 17:14, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Support: Maybe the "Hard Worker's Barnstar" or "WikiWorker's Barnstar" or, my favourite, "Stakahanovite Barnstar" ? - TheMightyQuill 16:29, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose - any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind: and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee". Donne included the chicks as well. Moreschi Request a recording? 17:50, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose because:
A WORKIN' MAN, A WORKIN' MAN,
Hurray Hurray for a Workin' Man,
He'll navvy and sweat till he's nearly bet,
THE GIFT OF GOD IS A WORKIN' MAN!

No need to make fictional Irish poets cry.--Folantin 18:47, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Support: Working Wikipedian or something like that covers it all, the slippery slope sarcasm is really unneeded (call it whatever you want) I never heard a female called a "Working man," or "hard working man" so the argument that this as a common phrase meant to include all is no good, IMO. Personally, doesn't bother me, but if it bothers some, it should probably be changed for civility's sake.

IvoShandor 18:59, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Oppose. Working Man != Working Male. I see no reason why a woman can't be a Working Man. People can subst it into a sandbox and edit the text if they feel the need when awarding it to a woman. WjBscribe 23:45, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Whatever's agreed on, whether it be "The Hard-Working Wikipedian Award" or the like, suggest that any reference to gender or collective nouns is simply avoided. Regards, David Kernow (talk) 02:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Suggestion Perhaps the template could be changed to introduce a simple fix to allow a user to change the template to Working Woman's or Wikipedian's, while the official name still being Working Man's? Smomo 15:58, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
That might work I guess. Could that be done? Raystorm 17:00, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Purple star should not include medal

Purple star as listed at WP:PUA
Purple star as listed at WP:PUA

An anonymous user left me a message today [1] with a good point about the purple barnstar. Which I quote here:

Your web site graphic of the purple heart "barnstar" is inappropriate and offensive to members of the United States Armed Services who suffered injuries to be awarded the medal. Reducing the purple heart to something awarded to wikipedians involved in anti-vandalism efforts seems disingenuous and is in bad taste. Please consider what message you are trying to send by posting this item on your user page, and whether it reflects poorly on the wikipedia community.

I agree with their opinion so perhaps the image should be changed so that it does not include an actual image of the medal, but instead is just purple. I don't have the graphic talent to makes the change, so I will leave it up to others to change should we agree to make the change. -- Gogo Dodo 22:59, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

The Image:Purple Star.png is technically a WP:PUA, and not a barnstar. There is a discussion here Wikipedia:Barnstar and award proposals/Archive10#Purple Star Award. We could solve this by having an admin retsure the first image uploaded (look at the edit history). --evrik (talk) 23:05, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

  • I agree. I am the one who changed the graphic (I did propose the change here first) and I didn't think that it could be offensive, but now I realize that it might be. Being the person who uploaded the changed graphic, I took the liberty of immediately reverting to the old version (no medal), hoping that this is not a violation of WP:OWN. Herostratus 17:59, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Support change. Perhaps we could consider a different symbol for the centre of this barnstar? One that would be less controversial? Though it looks quite good just as a purple barnstar... WjBscribe 18:02, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Support I agree with what our friend in the armed forces is saying, and I support this change. Smomo 13:56, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Support change - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 21:22, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Support--Dr who1975 19:16, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Neutral Oppose: Oh brother. IvoShandor 05:44, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose Although I understand the main argument here for restoring the version without the medal, I think that we need not be so politically correct. Frankly, I think that nobody would really care with the usage of this medal on the purple barnstar, that's just nitpicking. The barnstar looked really nice with it, and if this medal has to go, I hope that at least a visually attractive and politically correct substitute can be added. --Húsönd 21:50, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Furthermore, perhaps I should remind that Wikipedia is not censored. The fact that someone finds something on Wikipedia tasteless and inappropriate reflects nothing but a point of view.--Húsönd 22:33, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. Something involving a band-aid would probably be better anyway. Herostratus 01:41, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Support I agree with the anonymous user. You can't draw a parallel between having your leg blown off and having your user page vandalized. Asarelah 19:44, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: There is no way a Wikipedia Barnstar could be confused with an award or have parallels drawn to it by simply having an image of a medal, that assertion doesn't make sense. Have we all lost our minds to blind militarism. Anyway, no offense meant, changing my opinion from neutral to oppose above. IvoShandor 19:03, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Also why is the medal missing from the image whilst the discussion is still open? IvoShandor 19:04, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CVG Star

The CVG star is currently a personal user award while it is mentioned on the main page of the CVG project - should this not be a WikiProject award? Greeves (talk • contribs) 22:54, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

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