Talk:Baroque
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[edit] Old
Well, I am confused. According to the log:
(diff) Baroque 12:54 pm (2 changes) [*removed "characterized by intricate detail", added some architects] . . . . . MichaelTinkler
This removal is confusing. As far as I know (in literature, music, and architecture) Baroque style is always characterised by intricate detail.
so why did Michael remove this?
well, because "intricate detail" in the field of art and architecture is far too unsubtle to be of any use. I doubt it's useful in music, either. Renaissance and Neoclassical art and architecture are subject to as much detail as Baroque. What do you mean by 'detail' that is useful? --MichaelTinkler
I don't know the protocol for handling /Talk pages, but I'm surprised that you think its okay to remove a link to the talk page when you answer a question and then ask me a question... The point of a /Talk link is to show that there is some discussion that may not be appropriate on the main page. by removing the link, you have basically said my question or opinion has no value.
It isn't the issue of detail that makes the Baroque style important. it's the intricate nature of the detail that makes it important. If fractals had existed in the Baroque times, they would have been called Baroque as well.
Intricacy as opposed to simplicity is an easily recognized characteristic, and may be applied to many endeavors of life. And it is characterstic of the baroque style.
whoops - I didn't mean to delete the Talk link! I apologize very much for that.
Well, 'intricacy' (though I believe he uses the word 'complexity') vs. 'simplicity' is one of the 5 (I think it's 5) difference Wolfflin identifies for the differences between Classic (his word for High Renaissance) and Baroque. That, of course, elides Mannerism. Lots and lots of baroque architecture (the area I know best) is literally quite simple in terms of surface detail - I'm thinking of Bernini's Piazza San Pietro and the surfaces of Borromini's San'Ivo. One can, of course, oppose Guarino Guarini's Chapel of the Holy Shroud in Turin, but he's a lot less characteristic than either of those two Roman examples, or Wren's St. Paul in London.
I would read 'intricate detail' to mean 'fussy'. That is much more a characteristic of Rococo.
Also, the word 'detail' has a variety of meanings in different art forms and media. I sincerely don't think it's a particularly useful introductory sentence to what will eventually be a fairly long article! --MichaelTinkler
I agree that Rococo is intricate as well. When I checked out my definitions at www.dictionary.com, I found that some authors (obviously some of those I have read) equate the two styles. Baroque is known for intricate ornamentation and I'm not sure what that difference (in a general sense of the word) between ornamentation and details might suggest.
Sources I've just read say that late Baroque merge into early Roccoco. And that in some countries, particularly Protestant ones, Baroque did not become as "wild". However I will protest any description of Baroque as simple. -rmhermen
Renaissance art in many media is as 'ornamented' or 'intricate' as the Baroque. I'm thinking (just off hand) of Cellini's metalwork and in fact any finished bronze or gold work of the High or Late Renaissance. They're as covered with 'linear detail' as anything in the Baroque. There is also little difference in the level of *surface detail* in the ornamental nature of, say, renaissance and baroque column capitals.
Please note, I'm not denying there's a difference. There is a stunning difference between a dry, rather dull capital in 1450 or 1500 and something created by Guarino Guarini or Borromini in the 17th century. One is 'renaissance' and the other is 'baroque'. However, it is not a matter of the number of lines cut in the leaves. It is a matter of a sense of animation, a flowing line, a liveliness.
Similarly, there is no less dependence on geometry in the baroque than in the renaissance. The difference is that the preferred geometric figures are no longer Regular figures (circle, square), but instead tend toward the oval, the ellipse (Piazza San Pietro), the 6-pointed star (St. Ivo della Sapienza, Rome). That is a *characteristic* difference, but it has nothing to with surfaces. Borromini's masonry is quite conservative -- it's his geometry that's over the top.
I guess my basic problem may go back to the idea that "Wikipedia is not a dictionary" (see FAQ) - we don't even need to start an entry with a simplification. Of course, I'm sure you meant it only as a beginning, and you and I have spent all this time going back and forth when we could have been adding Baroque entries to be elaborated by others, too. Oh, well - an afternoon (I'm GMT minus 4) not badly spent. --MichaelTinkler
not to worry, rmhermen - I'll protest any description of Modernist Architecture as 'simple', too. A Miesian glass box may look simple from 1000 feet in a photograph.... ---MichaelTinkler.
Is there a reason that baroque art starts in the early 1600's but baroque music in the late 1600's? What about architecture? ---rmhermen
yes. See Periodization. These stylistic terms are very very very messy. The Renaissance starts at different dates for different media, and at different dates in different countries for the same medium. I have real trouble with the Cultural movement entry because of this.
Style itself is very very very messy: not everyone in 1967 was a hippie. Baroque doesn't begin on April 7, 1609. Styles are rarely completely in control of works of art and literature any any time. The recent inclusion of metaphysical poets as 'Baroque' shows that "Mannerist' is not an easy concept to grasp either... Wetman 22:35, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)
These paragraphs seem inconsistent:
'Baroque'...is a French translation of the Italian word "Barocco"; some authors believe it comes from the Portuguese "Barroco" (irregular pearl, or false jewel - notably, an ancient similar word, "Barlocco" or "Brillocco", is used in Roman dialect for the same meaning), or from a now obsolete Italian "Baroco" (that in logical Scholastica was used to indicate a syllogism with weak content).
and at the end:
Baroque pearls are natural pearls that deviate from the usual, regular forms. In particular, they are pearls that do not have an axis of rotation. It was this use of the term for irregular pearls that eventually lent its name to the baroque movement.
So is this fact or theory? Somebody please clarify. Palefire
- If baroque entered the German languages as a nautical term in the 1500s for pearls that were like diamonds in the rough (from its constituent parts bar (German for raw or rough) and roco (a nautical pidgin word for German reich (rich)), and migrated back to the Romance languages as the Dutch and Low German princes grew in power, it is easy to see how the word applied to pearls whose natural beauty could be admitted despite the presence of a minor blemish here and there. (And pearls that are meant for stringing need a couple places for drilling, so a blemish or two in the right places, in those respects, is actually a good thing, and quite marketable in spite of them.)
I don't like the position of the picture, to the left of the TOC like that...I tried to fix it, but the caption wouldnt display. the caption, by the way, doesn't make much sense --Tothebarricades.tk 02:21, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
[edit] baroque - Handel
his first name should be written either in German; Friedrich, or English Frederic, but not Frideric, as you have it. He was born in Germany was court musician to King Georg and had a fall-out with him. Went to England, but, as fate will have it, Georg became king of England as George I (the first) he made up with him with the watermusic.
It is also importnant to write his actual name: "Händel" or "Haendel" not just Handel. Handel is simply a different name.
—
For some reason, Handel's middle name is generally anglicized as 'Frideric', rather than the more usual 'Frederick'. I guess that was how he himself chose to anglicize it.
Sdoerr 14:14, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Removing introduced waffle
Originated "somewhere between 1550 and 1600"A mention of a "proto-Baroque" has been made. No Baroque in 1550. That's Mannerism we're looking at. El Greco is not Baroque. Baroque is not a movement in art history it's a movement in art itself.
I have edited "hidden" links to make them explicit. A link like 17th Century Philosophy linked in the text as "The Age of Reason" just compounds the editor's own confusion. Will Durant entitled that volume The Age of Reason Begins.
I didn't take out this: "The Baroque was defined by Woelffrin as the age where the oval replaced the circle as the center of composition, that centralization replaced balance, and that coloristic and "painterly" effects began to become more prominent." The critic Heinrich Wolfflin was a long time ago. And this misremembers a second-hand retelling of something Wolfflin might have said in some particular context.
We need more images to make points come alive. I found the Rubens among UnusedImages here. Wetman 01:13, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Potential nomination for removal as a featured article
Hi, this article no longer meets a number of the criteria for a featured article. 1.) It does not cite its sources. Best would be to add the most trusted resources in the field, some print resources especially, but also online references are better than none. Those sources would likely help with good material to further improve the article anyway. 2.) It does not have a lead section 3.) The images, while great, may not all be freely licensed properly for Wikipedia. The Web gallery of art states: "The Web Gallery of Art is copyrighted as a database. Images and documents downloaded from this database can only be used for educational and personal purposes. Distribution of the images in any form is prohibited without the authorization of their legal owner." That may be an incorrect claim, but that needs to be dealt with carefully.
I really hate to [[Wikipedia:Featured_article_removal_candidates|nominate an article for removal as a featured article, so I thought I would ask for help here first. Hopefully someone here can handle this. But because I believe all featured articles need to meet the same standards, I will nominate it if no one is able to fix these issues. Thanks - Taxman 23:27, Oct 26, 2004 (UTC)
- It's a good thing the criteria for Featured Article are being raised. Articles like Crushing by elephant and Academia were hugely improved after being exposed upon the Main Page. A subsection here, The idea of "Baroque" ought to cover the main literature. Photos of sculpture may not be covered by the standard template, viz:
The two-dimensional work of art depicted in this image is in the public domain in the United States and in those countries with a copyright term of life of the author plus 100 years. This photograph of the work is also in the public domain in the United States (see Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp.).
Why not just remove the nomination? --Wetman 01:09, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I don't understand, remove what nomination? I did not want to nominate it at Wikipedia:Featured article removal candidates at all until the contributors to this article had had a chance at least to fix the issues I noticed. - Taxman 14:11, Oct 27, 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Format
Someone has put all the caredully-balanced illustrations in a strip down the right-hand side. Is this progress? --Wetman 14:26, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- I did it - sorry, but I didn't think the original layout was at all "carefully balanced". I don't like left-floated images at the best of times, and the original arrangement was quite messy and disrupted the flow of the text. The different sizes and the right-left combination in the lead section section and after the TOC were particularly jarring, I thought - there was a narrow band of text one or two words wide between the images in the lead section. -- ALoan (Talk) 15:02, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
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- Good work, I do feel that not keeping all of them on the right makes the article visually more attractive, easier on the eyes. I have started on a new lead section and moved the old text to its own section. The lead section could use some more text and the new "Evolution" section probably could be structured a bit better as well (maybe also under a different heading). -- [[User:Solitude|Solitude\talk]] 15:39, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Opening paragraph
... around 1600 in Rome, Italy So that's not Rome, New York, after all, eh. My goodness, this certainly leaves no room for doubt in our minds! In later centuries --that would be during the 18th century and the 19th century: which manifestation of Baroque is intended here? ... a sense of blurring different art movements I'm certainly getting the blurring part, but is "art movements" really what's meant? --Wetman 01:31, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Capitalization
Is the inconsistent capitalization of Baroque/baroque intentional - or does it need to be made consistent? Kdammers 09:15, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
- No inference intended, I think. A matter of style: neoclassical, classic, renaissance, romantic, rococo art. Or Neoclassical, Renaissance etc. Uncapitalized as a baroque fountain, but capitalized as a fountain that fully expresses the Baroque. A broque pearl, but the Baroque style? Maybe it's immediate context rather than an Olympian consistency. --Wetman
-
- Well, then maybe we should try to put some order into the page. In any case, for me, a baroque fountain is one that is flamboyant whereas a Baroque fountain is one that is in the Baroque style &/or from the Baroque period. I think that IF the article is to have variations, then they should be meaningful (lest they otherwise confuse). Kdammers 01:48, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
- I agree. Consistency within an article is always good. --Wetman 04:21, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Done. The capital is not required for the period, but widely used and i think always accepted. IMO it is also desirable for clarity, and i'm adding a sentence about "barrocco" that will use "baroque". --Jerzy·t 16:04, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- "Baroque" as an adjective should be confined to nouns where there is no confusion about the Baroque style: baroque politics, baroque fears etc. If it is a manmade object, "baroque" always means Baroque. There are plenty of other adjectives that connote exhuberance, extravagance, animation, etc. --Wetman 19:02, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- That's a great idea, but you're not talking about the English language. The word "baroque" with a mandatory lower case B has dicdefs like "characterized by grotesqueness". English was not designed to guaranteed disambiguation.
- I was merely offering the usage of those people who would not characterize a Fabergé egg as "baroque" merely because it was elaborate, when it was in fact neoclassical in design. I am indeed talking about the English language, you see. --Wetman 21:15, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I may still be confused. On my continuing assumption that this is discussion pursuant to editing the page, rather than idle conversation, i suggest (since i have trouble imagining it) that you propose or boldly edit in wording for the article that makes your point in a way that is useful to WP users. (IMO, what you describe is a useful, even laudible, habit in cases where the context allows for confusion (talking to people interested in Faberge who don't know his era, or don't know an era for the Baroque age?) for those who find it natural. But as a listener/reader, you don't need to know about the habit to profit from it.) The only purpose in mentioning it is to urge adopting it -- IMO unencyclopedic.
[edit] Erudite verbiage obfusticates cognition
"If Mannerism was a first breach with Renaissance, Baroque was an opposed language. It represented the evidence of the crisis of Renaissance neoclassical schemes— the psychological pain of Man, disbanded after the Copernican and the Lutheran revolutions, in search of solid anchors, in search of a proof of an ultimate human power, was to be found in both the art and architecture of the Baroque period. "
I hope I am not the only one who thinks of this part as shit in a chocolate wrapper.
I have sat down with a peice of paper to try and piece together what it means. There still remain several things which are ambiguous;
- solid anchors to what?
- What is "ultimate human power"? I thought, 'human divinity', i.e., something which makes us like God.. :S
- Psychological pain of Man? What, angst?
This is my amendment:
If Mannerism was a first breach with Renaissance, Baroque was an opposed language. The psychological pain of Man -- a theme disbanded after the Copernican and the Lutheran revolutions in search of solid anchors, a proof of an "ultimate human power" -- was to be found in both the art and architecture of the Baroque period.
I'm not an expert in this subject, there may be something I don't know. But I've made a start at least, I hope :)
There are also several other parts of the article which are excessively pompously worded, particularly in the descriptions of the artworks; I'm hesitant about changing it all but - someone who knows this stuff, how about making it a little more accessible?
Gubby 16:28, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Hi Mimi =)
I don't know how to remove it from the end of the article. It looks nice indeed, but I quess it's not an organic part of the article.--Mathae 21:38, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Jan Blazej Santini (Giovanni Santini)
Dear all, I've just noticed that there is not a mention in the whole Baroque Architecture section about Santini whose churches and monasteries are currently a source of wonder as well as detailed studies. Come to the Czech Republic and see his (Krtiny close to Brno or Church at Zdar nad Sazavou monastery). Ondrejs 10:05, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Leonardo as an vanguard?
Could it be argued that Leonardo da Vinchi was a founder of this artistic tradition? Looking at quite a few of his works lately such as The Virgin of the Rocks and the equestrian project for Francesco Sforza(incomplete) it seems to me that the gesticular style of baroque could be represented in his works. Though I am not thoroughly familiar with this style it is a thought I had upon reading this article.
- Not really, much of Leonardo had to do with elaborate compositions and other things that required a huge ammount of intelect, while baroque had to do more with feelings and to try to compose them by the means of light and the dramatism present in the painting, anything BUT intelect (as it was discouraged by the church).
[edit] Help me!
Hey, does anyone think that could help me answer some questions. I'm having a bit of trouble finding the answers alone. # BROWNSAY SOMETHING!!! | 00:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
- Maybe in some of Leonardo's drawings of fighting figures. You'd find the germ of Baroque more clearly in Michelangelo. --Wetman 03
- 02, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
- thanks, although I don't quite understand what you're getting at here but anyway, I've got it figured out now # BROWNSAY SOMETHING!!! | 14:01, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Poor article
The Baroque went from 1600 until?, the causes were? (socioeconomic, historical and the perspective from modern historians). There is some information in the article, but its so scattered in unnecesary sections that it makes a hard reading for the casual visitor. (Anonymous)
- I can think of four or five vividly represented aspects of the sculpture at the right that demonstratethat "baroque" is a style, not, as we are owlishly informed at the opening of the Wikipedia article, a "period." It would be a hard row upstream to try to write such an article, however: cries of "original research" from the uninformed, etc.... --Wetman 06:54, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Removed a paragraph
"In recent history, western European civilizations have faced three critical questions (in chronological order): Which religion to follow; which government to uphold; and how to bring equality to everyone. The matter of religion was resolved after Martin Luther, John Calvin, and others initiated a Protestant Reformation that gave many European monarchs an excuse to become more independent from The Holy Roman Empire. This led to a Counter Reformation by the Roman Catholic Church which included a push for new forms of art that exalted the Church's holy position."
I have removed this paragraph because it seems, in my mind, to violate NPOV when it decided what the three "critical questions" in history were. Also, the statement that "the matter of religion was resolved" is factually incorrect. Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation led to more disagreement about which religion to follow, not less. The rest of the information in this paragraph is repeated in the next paragraph. Wood Thrush 23:33, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
- I do not necessarily agree with your rationale, but this paragraph sucks in any case. Thanks for the removal.SauliH 05:30, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Baroque fashion
Are there any types of fashion (clothes) that were worn during the Baroque period? Angie Y. 19:54, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] 'ancient' Portuguese noun?
The word 'ancient' here jars with me: I don't think a linguistic specialist would use it. Apart from anything else, 'ancient Portuguese' would actually be Latin! Maybe the sentence was written by a non-English speaker in whose language the equivalent of 'ancient' is used of languages that in English are normally designated 'Old' (e.g. 'Old French' = 'ancien français' in French). Sdoerr 14:24, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] "Bernini's Cornaro chapel: the complete work of art" - Incorrect picture?
I was just wondering why in the section about the Cornaro Chapel there is a picture of the Menshivok Tower? It is Baroque architecture, but has absolutely nothing to do with the Cornaro Chapel, the Santa Maria della Vittoria, or the Ecstasy of St. Theresa as far as I can tell. Is it relating to the section below on Architecture, or is there some other reason? I would just change it, but given the amount of work having gone into this article, and it's previous featured status, I wanted to double check that there wasn't some good reason for the picture being there. ColinWhelan 17:02, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
