Talk:Baptist

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1. 2005 and prior
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[edit] Baptists are not Anabaptists

Some won't like this way of thinking: what defines the religious classification is not similarity in faith, it is cultural heritage: the unpleasant simile is that South American Condor is neither a vulture, nor a raptor, but rather Storks, despite superficial similarity. If then anabaptists arose as an early splitoff from the Reformeds, they are reformeds or schismatic reformeds. Similarly Baptists arose from a puritan cultural environment, then they're either puritans or schismatic puritans, sort of - and puritans are kind'a'anglicans. Baptist/Anabaptist comparison is kind of inappropriate in the initial paragraph, I think. Opinions? User:Rursus 11:04, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Rursus, I think that -- when they were often called "anabaptists" (meaning "again" baptised, from Catholics baptised at infancy requesting to be baptised as an adult) -- is just as well left out of the first paragraph, an edit which has been made. The article is certainly none the worse for Presbyter's edit, but I think we need to be aware this isn't a completely "erroneous statement about anabaptists", whether or not one accepts any connection to the Continental Anabaptists. They often (commonly) were "called anabaptists". For example, when seven baptist congregations in London issued a confession of faith in 1644, they wrote, "A Confession of Faith of seven congregations or churches of Christ in London, which are commonly, but unjustly, called Anabaptists..." http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/h.htm - Rlvaughn 15:15, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Good. I see! More like a confusion between technical descriptive terms and taxonomies of heritage then. Twirling his moustaches, does: Rursus 21:49, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

An interesting side-bar is that John Smyth tried to link up with the Mennonites, but passed away before doing so.

Stevertigo's recent edit: "Baptist is a Christian denomination descended from Anabaptist Protestantism" is highly contentious. For a good introduction to some of the issues, see 'Baptist Restorationism' in the 'Origins' section of the article. Arguably, the Anabaptist influence was indirect i.e. filtered through the debates amongst English Dissenters during their time in exile in Amsterdam. However, Thomas Helwys was a much more significant figure in establishing the identity of the sect, rather than the Minnonite-influenced John Smyth. Later, around the time of the English Revolution, the situation became confused when early Baptists found themselves being labelled 'Anabaptists' (one of the traditional labels for Protestant 'heretics' of many types) by their religious opponents. To summarise, Baptist origins are in English Dissent. Continential European Anabaptists did influence the early sect when it was in its infancy but its impact was limited. Yozzer66 13:34, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

"What defines the religious classification is not similarity in faith, it is cultural heritage" is of course just part of the story, with theology being the other. Both "lineages" deserve description, even though for certain denominations the lineage jumps around a bit. -Ste|vertigo 00:19, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I can agree with that. Universe is never as simple as we believe. Twirling his moustaches, does: Rursus 21:51, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] lede problems

Problems with how the lede is written, not what it contains: (Underlined phrases are unnecessary religious language or unclear jargon).

"A Baptist is a person with faith in Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah of Israel and who has confessed that faith by submitting to an immersion in water in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit."

This is too general because there are other believer's baptists out there who are not Baptists. Define what Baptist (capitals) means as a denominational term because thats what this article is about.

"The Baptist movement began when John the Baptist baptized Jesus with a deep water immersion in the River Jordan."

This is a claim (about a "movement"), one which is generally called "restorationist" because it asserts that its indirect traditions are directly linked to ancient ones.

"Jesus subsequently established the first baptistic congregation among the Jews and the movment has spread to most (if not all) nations under heaven at this present day."

"Subsequently" tries to build off the prior claim (without citing it as a claim), "baptistic" tries to show that Jesus' baptism was "Baptist-like" as if to emphasise the direct connection.

"Theologically, Baptists emphasize the absolute authority of the Scriptures"

Just say "the Bible".

"Consequently, they acknowledge faith in Jesus as the Savior as the only way of eternal life," believer's baptism by full immersion as the only baptism, and the congregational governance system as the only valid form of church government. Baptist churches often associate in national organizations such as the Southern Baptist Convention, the National Baptist Convention, and the American Baptist Association, as well as hundreds of regional and local associations. There are also many Independent Baptist churches who do not participate in any organized associations but, nonetheless, have vigorous fellowship with other likeminded churches.

"Consequently" like "subsequently" is just conversational language that tries to be logical. "Only way," "only valid form," "likeminded," are claims, not "acknowledgements," according to NPOV - which guides all of the writing here on Wikipedia. Regards, -Ste|vertigo 20:47, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Baptist restorationism

While looking at this article today, I noticed a change that was made earlier in the month. Under the "Origins" section the sub-headings were changed to "Traditional" and "Baptist restorationism". Though I don't think "restorationism" is out of line or even necessarily inaccurate, it is a term that has typically been applied to Christian groups other than Baptist. Out of curiosity, I googled the term and got only two hits: this Wikipedia entry and some comments in an abstract of The cultural renewal of slave religion: Charles Price Jones and the emergence of the holiness movement in Mississippi, by David Douglas Daniels. Interestingly, in that hit, "Landmarkism" was identified as a type of "Baptist restorationism" contra to the article here. Anyway, whether or not the term is a good one, I think it would be best to stick with terms more commonly used by Baptist historians. Thoughts?? - Rlvaughn 05:22, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

P.S., for an example one can see the four categories of Bruce T. Gourley at this site: Views of Baptist Origins. Gourley is Associate Director of The Center for Baptist Studies of Mercer University. - Rlvaughn 05:27, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

RE: BAPTIST RESTORATIONISM - The term "traditional" has been changed to "Baptist Perpetuity" and my thought is that Baptist Perpetuity and Baptist Restorationism constitute a succinct and accurate model for presenting the views of Baptist origins.

I looked at Mr. Gourley's web-site and it is clear that his motive is to discredit anything other than the restorationist viewpoint. In typical modernist style, he boasts of the morally superior character of his historical views, characterizing the other views as incredulous and being born out of bias. I find his following statement downright laughable:

"However, many of the historical churches which Landmarkists label as Baptist churches were actually heretical in regards to doctrine."

While this statment is certainly accurate, it proves too much for Mr. Gourley. For if being "heretical in regards to doctrine" means that these churches were not part of Baptist history, then what is to be said of the so called "moderate" Baptists with which Mr. Gourley identifies, who have fully embraced the modernist heresy?

Personally, I will not sumbit to the Baptist left's attempt to define what I am as a Baptist. I am just as capable of discerning Baptist history as any of them.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.105.65.5 (talk) 03:42, 23 January 2007

RE: BAPTIST RESTORATIONISM - P.S. I made the changes in the article on Baptists. I just registered so I am no longer anonymous. Mark Osgatharp 07:44, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Bro. Mark, two points:

1. I linked Gourley's article not as agreement with everything he writes, but as an online example I found of what are fairly common ways to categorize the various views of Baptist origins. If you know of a better one, feel free to call our attention to it.

2. Somewhere within Wikipedia guidelines is a statement about not using original research so that people don't just fill up the encyclopedia with their own ideas. "Baptist Restorationism", however accurate it may be, is a relatively new and novel way of categorizing Baptist origins (that is, as an accepted term), as far as I can tell. Perhaps it will catch on, but until then I don't feel we should use it in this encyclopedia. - Rlvaughn 17:51, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The meaning of the term "restorationist" is fairly plain, and Baptist origins in fact are in late Protestantism. Thats the definition of "restorationism." Even if the term isnt accurate, the claim that Baptists belong to the first congregation is just a claim, and the wording has to use the word "claim". -Ste|vertigo 07:47, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Stevertigo, as I stated above, I am not opposed to the meaning or specificity of the term "restorationism". It is just that my understanding of the Wikipedia guidelines would be to report in terms that have already been used in writings rather than making up our own terms for the encyclopedia articles. Am I interpreting the guidelines incorrectly? - Rlvaughn 05:09, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

This is just poorly written, even if there is a legitimate point about what Baptists claim the origins of Baptist traditions are: -Ste|vertigo 08:21, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

"A Baptist is a member of a Baptist church or any follower of Jesus Christ who believes that baptism is administered by the full immersion of a confessing Christian. Baptist churches are usually regarded as an Evangelical Protestant denomination originating from the English Puritan movement. However, there are some religious scholars, usually Baptists themselves, who disagree with this view of the origins of the Baptist faith. These scholars argue that Baptists date all the way back to the time of Jesus and John the Baptist, who baptized Jesus in the River Jordan. These scholars do not believe that Baptists originated in the Protestant Reformation 1500 years later. They argue that there have always been those who didn't follow any organized "denominational" system, rather they practiced their faith in the same manner as the early Christians mentioned in the book of Acts in the Bible. They claim to be successors to these early churches."

I also agree with Mark and stevertigo that this is poorly written and that the introduction should not be jumping into the issue of origins. - Rlvaughn 05:09, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree this is poorly written. The differing views of Baptist origins are dealt with in a later section. An opening statement should focus on a generalized conception of what a "Baptist" or a Baptist church is rather than jumping right in the middle of an issue over which there is large disagreement among Baptists.

I also think it is a misrepresentation of Baptists to assert that their chief identifying characteristic is a baptism by immersion. The chief identifying characteristic of Baptists is the Lordship of Christ and the authority of the Scriptures. The Baptist doctrines of baptism, church autonomy, and liberty of conscience are consequences of this first and fundamental belief. Here is a link to an old article that sets for the matter very well. http://elbourne.org/baptist/whybaptist/01_distinctive_baptist.html Mark Osgatharp

• The view that the "chief identifying characteristic of Baptists is the Lordship of Christ and the authority of the Scriptures" is not helpful. This would fail to distinguish Baptists from numerous other Protestant Christian denominations. Given that most Protestant denominations have believed in "the Lordship of Christ and the authority of the Scriptures", why have Baptists bothered to maintain a separate organisational existence for centuries? Clearly, the statement contains elements that are necessary but insufficient in defining a Baptist. The things that distinguish Baptists from other Protestant Christians are rooted in the theological differences between Protestants from the Reformation to the present-day. Yozzer66 12:56, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Why must Baptists be defined by their differences from other denominations? Why can't they just be defined for what they are? You asked, "Given that most Protestant denominations have believed in "the Lordship of Christ and the authority of the Scriptures", why have Baptists bothered to maintain a separate organisational existence for centuries?" Because Baptists put the theory into practice. You said, "Clearly, the statement contains elements that are necessary but insufficient in defining a Baptist." If that statement stood alone, you might have point. But the paragraph went on to state the doctrines Baptists draw from the principle of Scripture authority. Mark Osgatharp

• Mark, I assume that we agree that a belief in "the Lordship of Christ and the authority of the Scriptures" is a key element in what defines all orthodox Protestant Christianity. However, to argue that the Baptists are the only ones who "put theory into practice" is unnecessarily provocative. The point is that Protestants have always differed as to their theories about how 'the Lordship of Christ' actually translates into every day life, as well as to how to interpret scripture. There is no side-steping these differences. They have existed for centuries. Nor is it productive to assume that any one tradition has a monopoly on insight, virtue and consistency. As Oliver Cromwell once said, "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken". Yozzer66 14:22, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Yozzer, My edits did not make any mention of the inconsistency of Protestant theory and practice. I only stated the Baptist view and the consequent doctrines. There is nothing unduly provacative about that; it is merely stating what Baptists themselves claim to be which is what someone reading an encyclopedia article ought to learn. However, I might add that traditional Protestantism has allowed an admittedly greater role to tradition in church practices than have the Baptists. This has been one of the primary difference between the Baptists and the Protestants. As for the quote from Cromwell, this is not about whether or not Baptists might be wrong. Rather, it is about what Baptists believe. Mark Osgatharp

[edit] i.e. KJV?

Why does the opening section reference the Christian Bible with "i.e. KJV." There are certainly many KJV-Only Baptists, but as a whole, this is not the majority. I am going to remove the IE for the moment as Christian Bible (properly linked) is good enough.

Never mind, someone beat me to it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.191.17.168 (talk) 20:30, 21 January 2007 (UTC).

"Christian Bible" is not good enough as there are notable differences in Bible translations. Which versions do Baptists generally use? Is it the New International Version, the Young's Literal Translation, or what?-Ste|vertigo 08:16, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

This is not a simple answer. The King James Version still has the most market saturation, which is to say that it is the most widely purchased in the world, but not necessarily the most highly regarded as far as translations go. Several large and influential organizations (such as John Piper's Bethlehem Baptist Church and Al Mohler's Southern Baptist Theological Seminary) have endorsed the English Standard Version, while many Baptists have adopted the use of the New International Version for their daily reading. Most non-English translations are either based off the NIV, KJV, or rely on more reliable Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. The New American Standard Bible remains the top translation choice for many seminaries, but the King James Version remains in many pew racks. I think it's sufficient to say that Baptists in general recognize the Bible as authoritative. HokieRNB 14:00, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Thats a genuine answer. I think its germane to the article and deserves a section. Now, what about fixing up the writing in the lede paragraphs? -Ste|vertigo 23:43, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

It reads much better now. -Ste|vertigo 00:23, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Single Women Missionaries?

"Single women are no longer commissioned as missionaries, " was recently added to the article, without even a conclusion to the sentence, much less a source. Is this true? HokieRNB 13:38, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, HokieRNB, for the question, and for pointing to the comma that should be a period. I have requested clarification from the NAMB, and will post my findings. Meanwhile, I have removed the claim pending verification. With appreciation, Afaprof01 17:34, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] needs to be rewritten

The article needs to be rewritten, it is too biased towards the theological and historical point of view of a particular group, without objetively representing the theological variety among baptists. --Thebaptist 23:32, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

note: I rescued this comment from Talk:Baptist/Comments HokieRNB 13:37, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Concerning need for rewrite. It would be better to fix actual biases. You can help by identifying problem areas that you see. Thanks for sharing your concern. Afaprof01 06:12, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sacrament vs Ordinance

User:Thebaptist persists in changing this article back to say "sacrament or ordinance" in spite of the fact that total avoidance of the term "sacrament" in any connection, especially to refer to Believer's Baptism and The Lord's Supper, is a very strong Baptist distinctive. I cannot find any credible information to suggest that any major Baptist group uses "sacrament" in any connection. If you have such credible evidence, please share it here for the edification of all. Thanks. CME GBM 23:47, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Of sacraments and ordinances

Baptists use both words with the same meaning, this is not a theological dispute, but an intent to reflect usage. The theological distinctiveness of the Baptist position, does not depend on the choice of words.

For documentation see Baptist Sacramentalism (Studies in Baptist History and Thought) edited by Anthony R. Cross, and Philip E. Thompson —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thebaptist (talk • contribs) 00:09, 8 March 2007 (UTC).

Here are some sources: (1) "Is Baptist Sacramentalism an Oxymoron?” in Baptist Sacramentalism, eds. A. R. Cross and P.E. Thompson (Carlisle (U.K.): Paternoster Press, 2003); (2) Baptist Sacramentalism (Studies in Baptist History and Thought) James I. Packer (Foreward), Carlisle (U.K.): Authentic Media 2004; (3) More Than A Symbol: The British Baptist Recovery Of Baptismal Sacramentalism (Studies in Baptist History and Thought) Stanley K. Fowler Carlisle, U.K.: Authentic Media 2004. Fowler's research encourages Baptists to consider the view of baptism as sacramental as a viable option. He argues that understanding baptism as "sacramental" is not a new concept for Baptists but rather is an idea that is firmly rooted both in the biblical text and historically in mainstream seventeenth-century Baptist thought. In the twentieth century, British Baptists began to reexamine baptismal theology, and Fowler finds a number of prominent British Baptists who question the interpretation that baptism is solely a symbolic act. The argument is primarily dependent on the writings of prominent British Baptists. Fowler wisely includes theological voices, including that of Karl Barth, that critique the sacramental position.

Therefore, I must respectfully disagree with User:Thebaptist who claims this is not a theological dispute. It very much is a theological issue. I recommend that the section heading be reverted to ORDINANCES, and that the text acknowledge that British Baptists have begun to reexamine baptismal theology by questioning the interpretation that baptism is solely a symbolic act. These sources should be listed in the article. While I find the issue and the ongoing debate to be an interesting, the sacramental view is not one held by most Baptists, not even in the UK. As one reviewer wrote: "Students of Baptist theology will enjoy this provocative look at a seemingly forgotten debate." Our article should not confuse readers with Baptist Sacramentalism, the Baptist Calvinism Resurgence, or any other debates among the theologians. CME GBM 04:42, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I think this points to the need for an article on Baptist Sacramentalism. Based on your own evidence, there is clearly some question regarding the issue in Baptist circles, and is not such a shut case as had been initially represented. Would the following be considered an appropriate compromise? HokieRNB 14:30, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

"While many Baptist groups avoid the use of the term 'sacrament' because of its implication that God uses these rituals as a means of grace, some have begun to reexamine the theology of the ordinances by questioning the interpretation that they are solely symbolic acts."

See this post on Challies' blog for good treatment. HokieRNB 18:41, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

While I mentioned the book, the main point is not about sacramentalism; it is to acknowledge that some Baptists prefer the term sacraments, while others prefer ordinances and some use both terms indistinctively. I appreciate your effort in the compromise, but it still fails to recognize that some Baptists use the term "sacraments" without considering them as a mean of grace.

As I see there are two different discussions, one theological about the meaning and content of the ordinances; the other is about word usage, I was trying to reflect the current vocabulary used by Baptists regardless of their theological interpretation.Thebaptist 00:09, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we need to be especially mindful of how faulty some people's understanding may be about what the term "sacrament" actually means. If there was a group of Baptists who used the word "sprinkle" to mean "immerse", the article should still reflect that a proper understanding of "baptist" includes the idea of "immersion". Don't get me wrong, I'm not with this comment trying to prove any theological point about either means of baptism, but merely to point out that words do have significance and to gloss over the difference between "ordinance" and "sacrament" by saying they are synonyms isn't accurate. HokieRNB 18:41, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to HokieRNB and Thebaptist. HokieRNB expresses my thoughts far better than I did. After researching thebaptist's evidence plus a lot more in the same vein, I cannot agree that any authority is advocating use the term "sacraments" without considering them as a mean of grace. Glossing over the difference between "ordinance" and "sacrament" by saying they are synonyms really is not accurate. HokieRNB's proposed compromise is good and could include a couple of the references above. I also like thebaptist's suggestion for a new article on Baptist sacramentalism. This user has inspired me to do a lot of research, and I'm grateful for the impetus to learn something new. Where do we go from here? CME GBM 23:59, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't want to drag the issue, but since we are trying to be objective, I think that the article should mention that some Baptists use the word "sacrament" For example John Smyth in 1620 wrote

"(12) That the church of Christ is a company of the faithful; baptised after

confession of sin and of faith, endowed with the power of Christ.

(13) That the church of Christ has power delegated to themselves of announcing the word, administering the sacraments, appointing ministers, disclaiming them, and also excommunicating; but the last appeal is to the brethren of body of the church. (14) That baptism is the external sign of the remission of sins, of dying and of being made alive, and therefore does not belong to infants. (15) That the Lord's Supper is the external sign of the communion of Christ, and of the faithful amongst themselves by faith and love. (16) That the ministers of the church are, not only bishops ("Episcopos"), to whom the power is given of dispensing both the word and the sacraments, but also deacons, men and widows, who attend to the affairs of the poor

and sick brethren. Lumpkin, Baptist Confessions. 100-101."

The word "sacrament" is used also by the Midland Confession of Faith (1655)( Lumpkin, Baptist Confessions. 199) and is used by some European and Latin American Baptists, and it is used by some Reformed Baoptists.Thebaptist

• There are several copies of THE 1655 MIDLAND CONFESSION on the Internet. The word "sacrament" does not appear in any of them. For example, http://www.propadeutic.com/faith/midland.html. Its 14th article states that baptism "represent(s) the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ," a non-sacramental statement. Its 15th article refers to "ordinances of Christ."
• According to http://www.rpc.ox.ac.uk/ohp/jsmyth.htm, this was Smyth's personal confession, never officially published.
• We still have no actual evidence that "some Baptists use the term 'sacraments' without considering them as a mean of grace." Even if "some" do, it doesn't mean they are informed or correct or understand the difference between ordinance and sacrament. To go beyond what HokieRNB has proposed needs evidence that a significant, recognized, organized group or denomination of Baptists officially recognize or sanction the term "sacrament." Meanwhile, I am inserting a variation of the suggested compromise. I think our (at least my) future time can be much better spent on "matters of eternal significance." CME GBM 04:48, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Quoting The Broadman Minister's Manual (one of the definitive manuals for the various types of services in the Baptist Church), Chapter Two: Baptism and the Lord's Supper, the very first sentance states: "Baptism and the Lord's Supper are considered ordinances of the church given by command of our Lord." Nowhere is the word 'sacrament' used. ++Arx Fortis 15:09, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

That is to say, Broadman, that is to say, Southern Baptist...that is to say, "The Southern Baptist Variant of the Baptist Church." What Broadman does or does not say does not constitute the entire breadth and depth of the history of the entire Baptist tradition. Sighter Goliant 18:17, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Opening Paragraph

"Willy is a term describing a tradition within Christianity." It is? I've never heard of this. Is it short for Roger Williams' last name, or what? Misterdoe 02:45, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The BAPTIST Acronym

Let's try to keep this acronym of general principles, well, general. Not every Baptist believes in absolute "inerrancy," but "authority" fits everyone. And while every Baptist church practices immersion, not every Baptist church thinks the method of baptism is the necessary component of the rite, and historically speaking it is the question of who and not how we baptize that matters.

In addition, shouldn't the discussion that follows the acronym actually focus on defining the acronym? I know it did at one point, but it's becoming a hodgepodge of unrelated material. This article needs some serious cleanup, especially in the doctrinal area. Sighter Goliant 17:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Upon reviewing the records, I find that the changes in the BAPTIST acronym occurred recently, the result of a fellow named "preacher.titus" who did not post about his contributions or discuss them on the talk page. I have reverted the acronym to its earlier form. Naturally, this is up for discussion, I just think it should have been discussed before it was changed to something that could arguably represent theologically conservative bias. Sighter Goliant 18:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)