Talk:Bans on ritual slaughter

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Portal:Law
 Law Portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Law, an attempt at providing a comprehensive, standardised, pan-jurisdictional and up-to-date resource for the legal field.
??? This article has not yet received a quality rating on the assessment scale.
??? This article has not yet received an importance assessment on the assessment scale.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Bans on ritual slaughter article.
This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.
Article policies

Contents

[edit] Removed material

I removed the following sentence since it doesn't really seem to fit. --Deodar 00:53, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

"A neo-Nazi magazine in 2004 made the accusation that the Jack the Ripper murders were an extension of kosher slaughter and that this proved that the perpetrator was Jewish. [1]"
Seems more like delusion to me, although I am afraid there are plenty of people who believe it. -- Avi 01:15, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, Ben. It turned up when I did an internet trawl but I agree that it is too off-the-wall extremist to be noted here. Itsmejudith 09:26, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Country/Chronological or a Topical structure?

I ran into this issue on a previous article (see Talk:Academic_boycotts_of_Israel#Balancing chronological verse topical article structure). Should one favor a chronological structure or a topical structure or how does one achieve balance between the two? I would like to cover the BNP support for the animal welfare proposals in both the anti-semitism subsections of the debate section as well as within the British-specific country. Same with the perspective of the animal welfare advocates - both within the country-specific sections and in the topically organized debate section. --Deodar 03:55, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Coverage of Historical Bans and Motivations

I think there is some value in adding some coverage of historical bans. I understand from reading one source that there was a historical ban in enacted in Nazi Germany. I am not sure, but I would doubt that any bans enacted prior to the 1960s were motivated primarily by animal welfare concerns, society at the time was not that concerned about such things. It may be necessary to threat these historical bans somewhat differently -- maybe split up the debate section into "modern" and "historical" divisions. Or related to the previous question, we can do away with the debate section completely and just deal with a straight country/chronological presentation. --Deodar 03:55, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

The solution may be to get rid of most of the "Modern Debate" section -- just integrate the specifics into the country debates -- and just briefly mention that there are trends in the change of motivations for the bans over time - reduced prominence of anti-Semitism as motivation and a rise of a focus on animal welfare. That said, there seems to be serious questions raised about specific cases of Spain and Switzerland given their respective contexts as Foxman correctly points out. --Deodar 05:31, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed material, replaced with condensed "Trends" overview

As per my last comment, I have replaced the below with the condensed trends overview section. This is just an experiment. --Deodar 05:49, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Counterclaims that methods are humane
Kosher and Halal butchers deny their method of killing animals is cruel in response to the FAWC report.[2]
The BBC related the opinion of one rabbi with over 40 years of experience with the Jewish traditional method:
"The process takes a fraction of a second. With a very, very sharp knife all the vessels in the neck are severed and that means there's no blood going to the brain and the animal loses consciousness very rapidly and dies soon after that."[2]
Dr Majid Katme, spokeperson for the Muslim Council of Britain, issues a statement that:
"It's a sudden and quick hemorrhage. A quick loss of blood pressure and the brain is instantaneously starved of blood and there is no time to start feeling any pain."[2]
Concerns over Anti-Semitism
Abraham Foxman of the Anti-Defamation League says that the bans came about due to animal rights campaigners being "aided and abetted" by anti-Semitic politicians:
"Sometimes anti-Semites will use this as a vehicle to try to isolate the Jewish community by reaching out to those who are so preoccupied with [animal rights] [...] The key is whether or not there is a history in that country. [...] What other issues of animal rights have they engaged in to prohibit cruelty? When they begin and end with kosher slaughter, that's when I become suspect." [3]
Rabbi Menachem Genack, the kashrut administrator for the Orthodox Union said of the bans: "It's ominous [...] This kind of legislation in Europe has to be understood in the context of European history. A person would have to be extremely naive not to think that this is linked to anti-Semitism."[3]
Concerns over anti-Muslim sentiment
BBC reported the sentiments of one Muslim worshipper at the Central London Mosque: "Everything about the Islamic way of life is under attack so it makes you wonder if this is actually about humanity to animals."[2]
Restriction of religious freedoms
"This is a trend that is very much worrying us," said Avi Beker, secretary general of the World Jewish Congress, "we regard this as interference in Jewish religious practices."
"Jews across Europe are today becoming increasingly alarmed that concerns over animal welfare are taking precedent over a freedom of religion."[4]

[edit] References

Something has gone dreadfully wrong with the references. It seems the original refs got deleted, and those drawing back on them now have no content. JFW | T@lk 15:34, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

All the references except #15 seem to be OK. #15 is an undefined named reference and needs to be fixed. --John Nagle 05:28, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Humane methods of kosher slaughter

Added material about humane methods of kosher slaughter. Temple Grandin, who is both an animal rights activist and a slaughterhouse designer, has worked out in detail how to do this without terrifying the animals while they're still alive. --John Nagle 17:31, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Here's the definitive reference: "Religious slaughter and animal welfare: a discussion for meat scientists." This article, from "Meat Focus International", will tell you more than you probably want to know about how to properly design and run the killing floor of a kosher slaughterhouse.

Grandin's conclusion is that it's quite possible to do kosher slaughter humanely, but it takes proper plant design, equipment, and staff training to do it right. --John Nagle 06:08, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree, and I believe that it would be in the spirit of Judaism to do so. Originally, kosher slaughter was introduced to lessen the suffering of animals, who before the passage of these laws could be killed in any way the owner deemed fit. Kosher laws forced farmers in Biblical times to kill the animal with one cut (when done properly, the animal would lose consciousness immediately as a result of the sudden drop in blood pressure). Problem is, this form of killing did not take into account abattoirs, where animals are slaughtered en-mass. The mass-production techniques that were introduced in the last centuries made it a terrible ordeal for the animals (also for non-kosher slaughter, by the way). I can’t believe that this cannot be improved on, and I can’t believe that we can’t find a way to have the animal unconscious before its throat is cut. It would be in the spirit of the original kosher slaughter laws to lessen the suffering of the animal yet further, and it would augment Judaism’s ban on cruelty to animals (which in Judaism is a great sin you could go to hell for). Jimmy1988 14:02, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Encyclopedia???

"While Scandinavian countries that have adopted or maintained the ban have strong records of upholding animal welfare, Switzerland and Spain do not. Spain has yet to adopt a national animal welfare law. And such practices as bull fighting and the summer fiestas where goats and donkeys are thrown from the tops of towers have earned Spain fierce condemnation from animal protection groups worldwide. Where some see animal protection, Rabbi Jeremy Rosen sees nothing of the kind."

So a quotation from some uninformed person is enough for wikipedia?

Besides the common european animal welfare law, in Spain every autonomous community has animal welfare laws. And throwing donkeys from the top of towers??? Maybe in 1950 (and by the way, the donkey/goat survived).

Shame on any human being that causes pain to an animal just because of some religious belief. And shame on the EU council for allowing it...satanist who kill babies should try the freedom of religion excuse. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.101.168.173 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Active bans ?

I do not think that there is any ban of kosher and/or halal slaughter in France.

"stunning is mandatory except for ritual slaughter (...) Muslim of jewish ritual slaughter must be carried out in a slaughterhouse, by slaughterpersons authorised by certified religious organisations." (see this page in French from the ministry of agriculture web site) AFAIK, French authorities only request hygienic and safety regulations to be met.

So I recommend France be removed of the list of countries banning ritual slaughter --Geo115fr 14:51, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree, and have removed the paragraph that said: "In the past decade, four European countries - Belgium, France, Germany and the Netherlands..." It is a little sneaky to mention country names and then not give any details/source below about the bans they supposedly practice. Of the four mentioned above, only the Netherlands has an entry below that discusses this ban further. Jimmy1988 17:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


With regards to Spain, the situation seems to differ from the description. According to a report of the French national institute on agriculture research (INRA)[2], ritual slaughter is allowed for sheeps and goats. I translate pages 9-10 : "Sweden, Norway, Island and Switzerland as well as six austrian provinces does not allow any exemption to pre mortem stunning of the animal. Conversely, this exemption is granted in France, UK, Belgium, Danemark, Italy, Ireland, Netherland, Portugal and Spain. Conditions for exemption are not always the same in all countries. For instance, in Spain exemptions only apply to ovine and caprine but not to cattle."
So I recommend to write that Spain does not ban ritual slaughter except for cattle. --Geo115fr 14:21, 11 November 2006 (UTC)


I suggest to rewrite the chapter "active bans"

Justifications are : content relate to past and not current situation, is not sourced or is biaised, is limited to jewish ritual.

New content :

Within Europe, the legal situation of ritual slaughters differs from country to country :

  • in Netherland, halal slaughter includes some pre-mortem stunning [11].
  • Spain allows ritual slaughter for ovine and caprine but not for cattle[6].
  • the situation in Greece is disputed : it bans ritual slaughter according to a report from the EU commission[12], but an official Italian report says the opposite[5].


The part about the United States remained unchanged

[edit] Biased article: too much talk about anti-semitism, too little about animal welfare concerns

There is too much emphasis on the fact that various anti-semitic and islamophobic groups support the bans. No doubt they do, but they are just a small minority of the population. The reason there are bans on ritual slaughter in Western Europe is not racism but animal welfare concerns.

"Norway’s ban on ritual slaughter was introduced at the start of World War II." And had its "origins in the blatant anti-Semitism of that time."[7]

"The former chief rabbi of Norway, Michael Melchior, argues that anti-Semitism is one motive for the bans "I won't say this is the only motivation, but it's certainly no coincidence that one of the first things Nazi Germany forbade was kosher slaughter. I also know that during the original debate on this issue in Norway, where shechitah has been banned since 1930, one of the parliamentarians said straight out, 'If they don't like it, let them go live somewhere else.'"[5]"

This has no relevance for the situation today. If it is to be included at all, it should be in the historical section. Besides, it is badly written and cites only one source who holds very controversial views.

These claims are more or less conspiracy theories:

"Rabbi Melchior, who was serving as Israeli deputy foreign minister at the time of the Dutch debate, also said "they simply don't want foreigners and they don't want Jews."..."The lie that ritual slaughter is cruel simply shows a hatred for Jewish life.""

Settembrini 02:17, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Notes

  1. ^ [1]
  2. ^ a b c d
  3. ^ a b
  4. ^
  5. ^ a b c d e f g h i Italian bioethic comitee Report on Ritual slaughtering and animal suffering, Annex 3
  6. ^ a b c d e f g h i j k l m New stakes on muslim ritual slaughter
    pages 9-10 "Sweden, Norway, Island and Switzerland as well as six austrian provinces does not allow any exemption to pre mortem stunning of the animal. Conversely, this exemption is granted in France, UK, Belgium, Danemark, Italy, Ireland, Netherland, Portugal and Spain. Conditions for exemption are not always the same in all countries. For instance, in Spain exemptions only apply to ovine and caprine but not to cattle."
    page 14 "Enventually, in 2002, the German constitutionnal court granted to a Muslim butcher the right to slaughter without stunning similarly to Jewish butchers"
  7. ^ EU Commission report on Animal Health in Austria
  8. ^ a b c d e European Convention for the Protection of Animals for Slaughter, Explanatory Report, article 17
  9. ^ US Religious Freedom Report 2006 for Sweden
  10. ^ US Religious Freedom Report 2006 for Switzerland
  11. ^ EU Commission report on Animal Health in the Netherland
  12. ^ EU Commission report on Animal Health in Greece


--Geo115fr 16:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism

What, exactly, does the Temple Grandin excerpt have to do with the permissibility of kosher slaughter? The conditions she describes are not religiously mandated; the passage merely describes the problematic operating procedures of one slaughterhouse that happened to be a kosher one. Flourdustedhazzn 00:28, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

unless her comments are had a notable impact anywhere they should be removed. Jon513 19:27, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../b/a/n/Talk%7EBans_on_ritual_slaughter_3d06.html"